The Next Prophet or Spokeman of God

[TOmNossor]

SchrodingersCatBoy:

Seriously … the Bible is all their is? I guess a Jew could tell you that the New Testament is Heresy and Sacrilege.

Only the Bible is the Inspired Word of God. All other texts are not sacred scripture.

And God’s origional choosen people would say that only the Old Testament was the Inspired Word of God, all other texts are not sacred scripture.
As a LDS I think Jews and Catholics are wrong. You as a Catholic only disagree with God’s more ancient choosen people the Jews.
Charity, TOm

 

[Feanor2]

I pray for the new leader of the Mormons and for the faithful of that religion.

 

[Feanor2]

Well, quite simply- you lost your faith which is a sad thing.

Regarding consistency in the Church- you may see different people show different flavors of how they interact and present the faith- but there is only one faith set forth by the Church set forth by the Magisterium.

 

[vsedriver]

That being said Vatican II DEVELOPED (the Catholic word, I would be more than willing to say CHANGED, but Catholics say DEVELOPED) this teaching

this teaching was not changed. The difference between ‘changed’ and ‘developed’ is one where the meaning no longer applies and one where the meaning is expanded. There is STILL no salvation outside the church. But what it ‘means’ to be ‘outside’ the ‘church’ has been better defined.

I hope you can see the distinction and realize that the dogma has not been changed.

 

[vsedriver]

I can tell you also that unlike Catholics, LDS do not pray to or worship Joseph Smith, Thomas Monson, or St. Peter. And Catholics do pray to and worship St. Peter so you are the ones who practice idolatry. Of course, I am well versed in the Catholic teachings concerning petitionary prayer AND dulia, hyperdulia, and latria worship. But it is the Catholic Church that comes closest to idolatry in these areas not the CoJCoLDS despite what you wish was the case

no, the Catholic Church doesn’t come close to idolatry. You can’t say on one hand that you understand the concept of the Communion of the Saints and then on the other claim it is close to idolatry. The two concepts have nothing in common and do not relate to each other in any way.

 

[vsedriver]

As a LDS I think Jews and Catholics are wrong. You as a Catholic only disagree with God’s more ancient choosen people the Jews

which comes down to who has the authority to decide what is and what isn’t sacred scripture. Who do you think has the authority to make that call?

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

I didn’t run from the Catholic Church, I just found something I thought was more likely to be God’s church.

Charity, TOm

"more likely’? how could it be God’s Church when it can’t trace back to the Apostles to Jesus?
…
I just find it hard to see a church that has no connection to the past be considered as the church founded by Jesus Christ. It doesn’t fit scripture, doesn’t fit history and doesn’t fit with reason.

Hello vsedriver,
I am not sure how much you and I have dialogued. I do not believe that modern Catholic Church can trace itself back to the Peterine Authority. I do believe that St. Peter ordained Joseph Smith and we can trace our authority back.
My position is that Peter was the head of Christ’s church. He could and did receive Public Revelation and write scripture.
His successors like the Bishop of Antioch and the Bishop of Rome could not receive Public Revelation and write scripture.
What the Paster of Hermas (in the late 1st or early 2nd century) called “the lessor organization” continued in the Christian tradition as best they could. They were not infallible or able to receive Public Revelation. This organization however was Christ’s Church on earth. As I have said earlier, I expect / hope I would try to be in communion with Pope St. Stephen and St. Cyprian and … were I alive back then. When mankind was ready, God restored the church and at its head is a divinely chosen leader who like St. Peter can receive Public Revelation and write scripture.

All that being said, the connection of the Bishop of Rome to the Peterine authority, “doesn’t fit scripture, doesn’t fit history.” I recommend to Catholics and LDS that they read three books (two from Catholic authors and 1 from a LDS author).
From Apostles to Bishops by Father Francis Sullivan (Catholic)
The Rise of the Papacy by Robert Eno (Catholic)
Apostles and Bishops in Early Christianity by Hugh Nibley (LDS).
These three books cover the same pieces of historical data. Sullivan and Eno adopt a strong development paradigm and explain why they are Catholic because of the history and how the structure DEVELOPED. Sullivan argues that the post New Testament development is not dissimilar to some small developments that can be seen in the New Testament.
Nibley argues that there are Apostles and Bishops side by side in the early church and their roles are radically different. He then argues there are Bishops in Antioch and Bishops in Rome and their roles are radically similar (and not like the roles of Apostles).
Without a Catholic faith commitment not based on history, the history does not demand that one embrace the modern Catholic Church. I think Nibley’s presentation and conclusions concerning this timeframe are more solid and less reliant upon “faith.”
Cont…

 

[TOmNossor]

I know a former Catholic who as a Catholic read Nibley’s book (he isn’t and never has been a LDS and I do not think Nibley had much to do with his faith transition). I know a former LDS who has read Nibley’s book and is now Catholic. I am a former Catholic who read Nibley, Eno, and Sullivan after I became a LDS. I do not claim these books will make Catholics leave the Catholic Church or make LDS become Catholic. I do claim that your simple, “doesn’t fit scripture, doesn’t fit history and doesn’t fit with reason” cannot survive in depth analysis in primary and secondary scholarly sources.

Did you have a preconceived idea of what ‘God’s Church’ would be like and that the Mormon church just fit the bill?

No. I left the Catholic Church for poor reasons. One of the main ones is that due in part to my liberal church upbringing and due in part to the BEAM in my eye, I didn’t realize how special the Catholic Church was. I thought it was just like other Protestant Churches. This was largely true in my experience. So, I drifted a little.
I found the CoJCoLDS and spent 1 year tormenting the missionaries with my requirement to teach me from the Bible (which I accepted) not the BOM (which I didn’t). But, I came to see that there was something REMARKABLE about the community of LDS. I came to believe it was impossible for the Book of Mormon and this CoJCoLDS to exist because of some fellow names Joseph Smith, thus God was involved. I didn’t see the Catholic understanding of the Bible to be clearly superior to the LDS understanding of the Bible. I still remember the missionaries broaching the Trinity with me. And I still believe the LDS Trinity is a much better read of scripture than the -ousis based Trinity that is taught in the Catholic Chruch.
After being a member for 3-5 years or so, I came to discover that the Catholic Church was MUCH more than just some other Bible believing church. I investigated, but I remained a LDS. I am still quite confident that the CoJCoLDS is God’s church. One of the biggest changes is that Pope Francis appears to teach what my liberal “Catholic Community” taught and I still think the Catholic understanding presented by Catholic Answers when JPII was Pope is a much stronger challenge to my LDS faith. In other words, the Catholic Church with Pope Francis at its head does not present as strong of a case as it did with Pope John Paul II at its head.
In any case, I tell you this because I am not here to make Catholics into LDS. I was an alter boy and attended Sunday School, Confirmation Class, and …; but I was still ignorant. Had I not been ignorant, I am not sure I would have given the CoJCoLDS the attention necessary to become a LDS. My posts here call for anti-Mormon Catholic to be more respectful and see that there is much more to the CoJCoLDS than their ridiculing statements indicate.
Charity, TOm

 

[Lemuel]

My posts here call for anti-Mormon Catholic to be more respectful and see that there is much more to the CoJCoLDS than their ridiculing statements indicate.

Agreed. There is a LOT more to your church and it gets a TON worse. I don’t even begin to tell the worst of it. The thing I don’t get is why you can leave the Catholic Church but you can’t leave it alone. Seems you must have some reservations or just wonder if you are doing the right thing. I don’t troll Mormon forums. Why do you troll Catholic forums?

 

[lilypadrees]

Actually, the Bible does explain and support itself. Compare various Scriptures and you will see. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you. He will. Yes, the Catholic Church is the authoritative interpreter. But without the Holy Spirit guiding and giving the meaning of Sacred Scripture to the Church, it would be for nought.

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

And yes this is completely me taking the Vatican II understanding of “Extra Ecclesiam nulia salus” and applying it to the CoJCoLDS

…
I do think you are sincere in your search for the One True Church of Jesus Christ. I’m just not getting why it is so hard to refuse to see that it is the Catholic Church? Even the things you love about the Mormon Church are things lifted from the Catholic Church.

As a LDS we are taught that we should bring TRUTH with us to the CoJCoLDS. We are taught we should learn regularly and embrace truth.
I do gain understandings and insights from my study of Catholicism that inform my beliefs concerning TRUTH.
I could list PROBLEMS with the Catholic Chruch (just like I could list PROBLEMS with the CoJCoLDS). But, when I compare BEST to BEST, I am solidly a LDS. When I put problems, evidences, and many other things on the scale; I am solidly a LDS.
I do seek TRUTH. I believe I should evaluate what Catholicism REALLY is not what my Sedavacantist friend says it is, not what some misinformed person in the pew thinks it is, but what it really is.
I think the Catholicism taught me largely by Catholic Answers during the pontificate of John Paul II is the STRONGEST contender for my allegiance. Today, what I see from Pope Francis puts some chinks in that STRONGEST contender, but I still hope to understand what is REAL Catholicism. I would place Father Thomas Weinandy’s Catholicism above my Sedavacantist friends Catholicism and I would place Tim Staples Catholicism above my Sedavacantist friends Catholicism.
And I understand that you would likely say there is only one Catholicism (though you might claim Sedavacantist are not Catholics).
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

lilypadrees:

If Mormons used the same KJV Bible Protestants use, they wouldn’t need the BOM to explain it to them since the BIble explains and supports itself

the Bible does not explain and support itself. If it did there wouldn’t be any disagreements on interpretation. The bible needs and always has had an authoritative interpreter, which is the Church founded by Jesus Christ also known as the Catholic Church.

Thank you for agreeing with me:

The Next Prophet or Spokeman of God Non-Catholic Religions

This is not a Catholic position on the Bible. Are you a former Protestant? Charity, TOm The Holy Bible wouldn’t be the inspired, written Word of God (Jesus being the Word made flesh) if it didn’t support itself. God is the Author. And He doesn’t lie. His Truth is found in every word, every line, every page of His Word (Jesus and the written Word). Lily, you do not understand the Catholic position on the Holy Bible. LDS other then me to my knowledge have never commented on this area, bu…

Lily is not convinced yet however based on her recent response.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Well, quite simply- you lost your faith which is a sad thing.

Regarding consistency in the Church- you may see different people show different flavors of how they interact and present the faith- but there is only one faith set forth by the Church set forth by the Magisterium.

I admit that my faith was less formed than it should have been and I am/was responsibility for that. I maintained the faith that those who profess Christ (Catholic, Protestant, and LDS) have something to offer me. I didn’t have so I didn’t lose the understanding that Catholicism was very special in ways that Protestantism was not. I gained faith that the CoJCoLDS was very special in ways that Protestantism was not.

I would agree that the Magisterium with the Pope at its head is the place to go if you want to know what Catholicism is.
The Sedavacantists are not ridiculous. The Vatican II deniers are not ridiculous. There arguments inform how I see the Catholic Chruch.

If Pope Francis or his successor teaches that in addition to those who are divorced and remarried (who Pope Francis claims can receive communion) those who are in state sanctioned same sex marriages can receive communion, will that mean that the Sedavacantists are correct?
What if the Catholic Church begins to perform second marriages after annulments have been denied?
What if …

I think “the chair is empty” is a weaker Catholic position than that Pope Francis is the valid Pope, but as a non-Catholic, I think the changes make the intellectual case for the Catholic Church being God’s church weaker.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

That being said Vatican II DEVELOPED (the Catholic word, I would be more than willing to say CHANGED, but Catholics say DEVELOPED) this teaching

this teaching was not changed. The difference between ‘changed’ and ‘developed’ is one where the meaning no longer applies and one where the meaning is expanded. There is STILL no salvation outside the church. But what it ‘means’ to be ‘outside’ the ‘church’ has been better defined.

I hope you can see the distinction and realize that the dogma has not been changed.

I pointed to things that I think meet Newman’s criteria for “early anticipation” when I talked about the development at Vatican II concerning no salvation outside the Catholic Chruch.
I have read Newman’s essay and I consider it essential to a proper understanding of Catholicism.

There are some modern changes that I think cannot be righted with development, but this is not one. If you are a masochist, you can PM me and I will offer one.
There are also a number of Catholic pastors that do not teach a developed Catholicism, but teach a CHANGED Catholicism. I am not sure if Lemuel’s RCIA director is one of these or not.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

I can tell you also that unlike Catholics, LDS do not pray to or worship Joseph Smith, Thomas Monson, or St. Peter. And Catholics do pray to and worship St. Peter so you are the ones who practice idolatry. Of course, I am well versed in the Catholic teachings concerning petitionary prayer AND dulia, hyperdulia, and latria worship. But it is the Catholic Church that comes closest to idolatry in these areas not the CoJCoLDS despite what you wish was the case

no, the Catholic Church doesn’t come close to idolatry. You can’t say on one hand that you understand the concept of the Communion of the Saints and then on the other claim it is close to idolatry. The two concepts have nothing in common and do not relate to each other in any way.

The Catholic Church does not commit idolatry by design because it teaches that “petitionary prayers” to Saints are passed on to God AND because Latria worship is only afforded to God. Other worships are not worship proper.
The book Stages of Faith documents a lady who will not pray to God only to saints. I imagine there is a very small percentage of these folks, but I doubt the lady interviewed for Fowlers book is absolutely unique.
I dismissed this Protestant saw long ago by reading Catholic authors on my own. I do not intend to judge the Catholic Church by the least informed lady that misunderstands Catholicism or by what is taught me by Protestant critics of Catholicism.

That being said, LDS do not pray to Joseph Smith, we do not worship Joseph Smith, but Catholics here claim we do. They should read LDS responses to these criticisms before they offer them and then NEVER offer them.
I do not think I ever believed or suggested that Catholics commit idolatry (not today and not ever). I am saying two things.

1. A modicum of charity is required for a non-Catholic such as myself to embrace the Catholic view and not see it as idolatry.
2. Much less than this modicum of charity is required for the Catholic to dispense with this criticism of the LDS and it should be afforded to LDS.

I think I am on solid ground in claiming both of these things.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

As a LDS I think Jews and Catholics are wrong. You as a Catholic only disagree with God’s more ancient choosen people the Jews

which comes down to who has the authority to decide what is and what isn’t sacred scripture. Who do you think has the authority to make that call?

I believe scripture is received by revelation from God to His church leaders. It then MAY be collected into a document and presented to His church for our “common consent.” (Newman embraced a form of “common consent” for the establishment of doctrine and derived it from St. Augustine – probably with some St. Vincent de Lerins too, but I don’t recall that. Newman did not believe that the ordained clergy saved the church from Arianism, but that the laity did).
I believe the Bible was received by inspired church leaders and the actions of the Early Church in canonizing it COULD be considered a valid exercise of “common consent.”
I also believe that LDS do not believe the Bible is the perfectly defined and organized body of ancient scripture. As such, we use the Bible because we recognize it as inspired, because it is sufficient, and because it creates a common set of scriptures from which to invite folks to the fullness of God’s revelations. We do not accept that the Bible was a perfect exercise of a church guided infallibly by God. Maybe some books should have been included that were left out (like the Paster of Hermas which was read as scripture in many churches). Or maybe ??? But, the Bible is sufficient.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

My posts here call for anti-Mormon Catholic to be more respectful and see that there is much more to the CoJCoLDS than their ridiculing statements indicate.

Agreed. There is a LOT more to your church and it gets a TON worse. I don’t even begin to tell the worst of it. The thing I don’t get is why you can leave the Catholic Church but you can’t leave it alone. Seems you must have some reservations or just wonder if you are doing the right thing. I don’t troll Mormon forums. Why do you troll Catholic forums?

I dunno. I am certain that my “not leaving it alone” has nothing to do with hating Catholicism.
I am certain that I learn and grow from the research into Catholicism I am prompted to do while responding to criticisms of my faith here.
I do not think I have reservations, but I do ask God to lead me towards His truth regardless of what direction that takes me. And, I also try to read from the best Catholic sources so I might continue to know what Catholicism is. If God’s church is the Catholic Church and I am ignorant of that fact, I intend to be “invincibly ignorant.”
I will tell you something that I do not do. I do not go to LDS boards and post about how the Catholic church is “a TON worse” than they think it is. I am TOmNossor over there too so you can see what I say there.

That being said, I tell myself that I post here mostly to correct the errors, misstatements, and lies told about my faith here. I am not unaware that I am very capable of deceiving myself AND I have captured and expunged thoughts of “getting even with those anti-Mormon Catholics by sharing xyz.” Surely, I fail. Occasionally, I try to learn something about Catholicism usually with posts in the Apologetic Forum.

I would consider it a TRAVESTY if you decided to remain an anti-Mormon and also reject Catholicism because it is not so pretty and neat as you might have thought. If you tell me that my comparing and contrasting of Catholicism and its problems and Mormonism and its problems is leading you towards this travesty, I will stop posting for a while. I truly think Catholicism is a wonderful religion and if you cannot be a LDS, you should continue your faith journey as a Catholic. We will baptize you (rebaptize you) after you die anyway!!! grin
As we have already documented on this thread, your RCIA director or you failed to convey the proper understanding of “no salvation outside the Catholic Church.” These mistakes will happen and some of them will likely not be your fault at all. I encourage you to not treat these mistakes as I believe you have treated mistakes in your past church. There has been one perfect church leader on earth and His name was Jesus Christ. The best of all the rest are only trying to follow Him, but imperfectly.
So if your point is that I am imperiling your journey into Catholicism, I will depart for some time. Just ask.
Charity, TOm

 

[fredystairs]

I do not think I ever believed or suggested that Catholics commit idolatry (not today and not ever).

Well, respectfully, you did:

I can tell you also that unlike Catholics, LDS do not pray to or worship Joseph Smith, Thomas Monson, or St. Peter. And Catholics do pray to and worship St. Peter so you are the ones who practice idolatry.

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

I do not think I ever believed or suggested that Catholics commit idolatry (not today and not ever).

Well, respectfully, you did:

I can tell you also that unlike Catholics, LDS do not pray to or worship Joseph Smith, Thomas Monson, or St. Peter. And Catholics do pray to and worship St. Peter so you are the ones who practice idolatry.

I was wrong. I did say that.
I am sorry.
I should have said that this practice is closer to idolatry, but I understand why it is not.
I was wrong.
Charity, TOm

 

[Horton]

I do not believe that modern Catholic Church can trace itself back to the Peterine Authority. I do believe that St. Peter ordained Joseph Smith and we can trace our authority back.

What evidence you have that the LDS can “trace our authority back”? I’m guessing this leads back to great apostasy. I thought no could actually tell when exactly that happened but yet here you say it was sometime during the time of St. Peter?

The Catholic Church has documentation of the succession from St. Peter. What evidence can you, TOm, provide. No obscure writings referencing opinion, but evidence you have.