The Non-Chalcedonian Ascendancy (5-6th centuries)

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Gregory_I

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Here’s a question that is not meant to be polemical. So listen carefully please.

Recently, the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches have come to accept the Orthodoxy of one another’s Christologies, which is simply amazing.

However, IF the Oriental view is acceptable, and their Christology (WHich is completely Cyrilline) was never really WRONG, then WHat was wrong with People Like Severus of Antioch, Philoxenus, Dioscorus, Timothy Aelurus, Peter the Iberian, Peter the Fuller, etc. We condemn their “Eutychian” views (which never WERE Eutychian, Eutyches being condemned at the THird ephesian council in 475 held BY the Orientals themselves) which they never had. Why was the Miaphysite ascendancy so fought against if it was Orthodox? Is it simply the fact that they condemned Chalcedon and refused to look at it as anything other than a Christological watershed? Their condemnation of Pope Leo I and St. Flavian?

Well WE ARE IN THE SAME BOAT THEN. For if we truly mean what we say about their Christological Orthodoxy, then what business do WE have condemning Severus and Philoxenus? Men who TAUGHT that the One Nature of the Word incarnate was UNCONFUSED, unchangeable, indivisible, inseperable? What Business do we have condemning Dioscorus who clearly stated that all he cared for was the Orthodox faith?

What else would the Orientals think of us for accepting Ibas of Edessa and Theodore and THeodoret at one council and then condemning them at another? We do not possess the stability we think we do.

Was it really just a huge misunderstanding? It looks to me like we are both guilty…
 
Maybe they were condemned for not listening to Leo and Basically murdering Flavian and Anathematizing A legitimate ecumenical council…
 
Gregory, that is absolutely amazing news. where did you hear about this? do you have any official links or statements from Rome?
 
ok, i’m a little (very) out of the loop. apparently the CC and OOC have agreed on Christology for quite some time now? when exactly did these statements come out, and do the two churches also recognize each other’s sacrements?
 
grace_singh said:
ok, i’m a little (very) out of the loop. apparently the CC and OOC have agreed on Christology for quite some time now? when exactly did these statements come out, and do the two churches also recognize each other’s sacrements?
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I don’t have the exact dates, but I’m pretty positive it happened towards the end of JP the Great’s Pontificate. After trying to track this down on the 'net, I haven’t found it! I did come across the meeting between Pope Paul VI and Pope Shenouda III, but I could swear that there was a joint Christological Statement between the Coptic Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church during JP The Great’s Pontificate.
 
Joint Declaration of 1984
On Saturday, June 23, 1984 the delegation paid a visit to the Secretariat for Promoting Christian Unity. This was followed by the second and final session of the summit between the Patriarch of Rome and the Patriarch of Antioch at which the following Joint Communique was signed by the Holy Fathers:

1.His Holiness John Paul II, Bishop of Rome and Pope of the Catholic Church, and His Holiness Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, Patriarch of Antioch and All the East and Supreme head of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church, kneel down with full humility in front of the exalted and extolled Heavenly Throne of our Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks for this glorious. opportunity which has been granted them to meet together in His love in order to strengthen further the relationship between their two sister Churches, the Church of Rome and the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch-the relationship already excellent through the joint initiative of Their Holinesses of blessed memory Pope Paul Vl and Patriarch Moran Mor Ignatius Jacoub III.
2.Their Holiness Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Zakka I wish solemnly to widen the horizon of their brotherhood and affirm here with the terms of the deep spiritual communion which already unites them and the prelates, clergy and faithful of both their Churches, to consolidate these ties of Faith, Hope and Love, and to advance in finding a wholly common ecclesial life.
3.First of all, Their Holinesses confess the faith of their two Churches, formulated by the Nicene Council of 325 AD and generally known as ‘the Nicene Creed’. The confusions and schisms that occurred between their Churches in the later centuries, they realize today, in no way affect or touch the substance of their faith, since these arose only because of differences in terminology and culture and in the various formulae adopted by different theological schools, to express the same matter. Accordingly, we find today no real basis for the sad divisions and schisms that subsequently arose between us concerning the doctrine of Incarnation. In words and life we confess the true doctrine concerning Christ our Lord, notwithstanding the differences in interpretation of such a doctrine which arose at the time of the Council of Chalcedon.
4.Hence we wish to reaffirm solemnly our profession of common faith in the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, as Pope Paul Vl and Patriarch Moran Mor Ignatius Jacoub III did in 1971. They denied that there was any difference in the faith they confessed in the mystery of the Word of God made flesh and become truly man. In our turn we confess that, He became incarnate for us, taking to himself a real body with a rational soul. He shared our humanity in all things except sin. We confess that our Lord and our God, our Saviour and the King of all, Jesus Christ, is perfect humanity. In Him His divinity is united to His humanity. This union is real, perfect, without blending or mingling, without confusion, without alteration, without division, without the least separation. He who is God eternal and indivisible, became visible in the flesh and took the form of servant. In him are united, in a real, perfect indivisible and inseparable way, divinity and humanity, and in Him all their properties are present and active.
5.Having the same conception of Christ, we confess also the same conception of His mystery. Incarnate, dead and risen again, our Lord, God and Saviour has conquered sin and death. Through him during the time between Pentecost and the Second Coming, the period which is also the last phase of time, it is given to man to experience the new creation, the kingdom of God, the transforming ferment (cf. St. Mt. XIII: 33) already present in our midst. For this God has chosen a new people, His holy Church which is the body of Christ. Through the Word and through the Sacraments the Holy Spirit acts in the Church to call everybody and make them members of this Body of Christ. Those who believe are baptized in the Holy Spirit in the name of the Holy Trinity to form one body and through the Holy Sacrament of the anointing of Confirmation their faith is perfected and strengthened by the same Spirit.
6.Sacramental life finds in the Holy Eucharist its fulfilment and its summit, in such a way that it is through the Eucharist that the Church most profoundly realizes and reveals its nature. Through the Holy Eucharist the event of Christ’s Pasch expands throughout the Church. Through Holy Baptism and Confirmation, indeed, the members of Christ are anointed by the Holy Spirit, grafted on to Christ; and through the Holy Eucharist the Church becomes what she is destined to be through Baptism and Confirmation. By communion with the body and blood of Christ the faithful grow in that mysterious divinization which by the Holy Spirit makes them dwell in the Son as children of the Father.
7.The other Sacraments, which the Catholic Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch hold together in one and the same succession of Apostolic ministry, i.e. Holy Orders, Matrimony, Reconciliation of penitents and Anointing of the Sick are ordered to that celebration of the Holy Eucharist which is the centre of sacramental life and the chief visible expression of ecclesial communion. This communion of Christians with each other and of local Churches united around their lawful Bishops is realized in the gathered community which confesses the same faith, which reaches forward in hope of the world to come and in expectation of the Saviour’s return and is anointed by the Holy Spirit, who dwells in it with charity that never fails.
 
thank you both very much! that is remarkable to see.

so does that mean that the two churches not only accept one another’s Christologies, but also sacraments?
 
grace_singh said:
thank you both very much! that is remarkable to see.

so does that mean that the two churches not only accept one another’s Christologies, but also sacraments?
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As far as the Sacraments go, yes. The Catholic Church teaches the Orthodox (“Eastern” and “Oriental”) have “valid” sacraments i.e. they are “authentic” because they have preserved Apostolic Succession.
 
Pakesh said:
As far as the Sacraments go, yes. The Catholic Church teaches the Orthodox (“Eastern” and “Oriental”) have “valid” sacraments i.e. they are “authentic” because they have preserved Apostolic Succession.
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interesting. so can a Syriac Orthodox man or woman take communion at a Catholic Church, and the other way around?

is the sacremental recognition applicable only within respective churches, or across churches?
 
grace_singh said:
interesting. so can a Syriac Orthodox man or woman take communion at a Catholic Church, and the other way around?

is the sacremental recognition applicable only within respective churches, or across churches?
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The short answer is yes, a member of an Orthodox Church may receive communion at a Catholic Church. Here’s a statement from 1996 of the USCCB:

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 § 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 § 3).

The bold was added by me for emphasis. Note that Orthodox Christians are urged to respect the discipline of their respective Church. Generally, an Orthodox would not come to a Catholic Church and receive communion because it’s not in their discipline. Some Orthodox believe that the Catholic Church doesn’t have valid Sacraments. A note of caution though. I don’t think that belief is really widespread. Others on this forum could answer that. As far as I understand, it varies from Church to Church in the Orthodox Communion, and I am not sure the specific stance of the Syriac Orthodox Churches.

Just to add more mud to the water…The reverse is not true. From what I understand, generally, a known Catholic would not be able to receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church. Only in grave instances should a Catholic approach an Orthodox priest for Confession, Eucharist, and Anointing of the Sick. In addition, the situation in the Middle East between Eastern Catholics and Orthodox is very fluid. It is very common to encounter frequent inter-communion, and I’ve read that it is even sometimes encouraged.

I trust that if I have spoken in error, my Catholic and Orthodox brothers will correct me. The above is what I have learned over the years studying Eastern Christianity informally by reading this board and various books.
In Christ,
Pakesh
 
grace_singh said:
Pakesh, thank you very much. that is extremely helpful, and fascinating. http://starcraft2forum.org/forums/images/smilies2/yes.gif

is it basically that the churches officially understand and accept one another more deeply than most laymen realize?
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I think that would really be an oversimplification. It’s hard to put in words. The Catholic perspective is that the Orthodox are our Sister Churches, but they are “in schism.” There really is soooo much we share in common. We are both Apostolic, we both have all the Sacraments, and they are valid. But what we do differ on is significant-the role and nature, along with the Authority of the Holy Father, the Pope; the filioque, which I believe has really been a tragic, true misunderstanding (I know others will disagree) that really shouldn’t be an issue anymore; the idea that the Catholic Church has dogmatically defined Purgatory and the Immaculate Conception, etc.

There are a good number of laypeople who do understand the relationships between the Churches (as evidenced by our Brothers and Sisters in this particular Forum), and unfortunately, there are also Clergy who are ignorant (not of their own fault). I guess what I’m saying is, I wish there was a greater awareness across the board from laymen to Clergy about Eastern Christianity and what the Catholic Church teaches in regards to the Orthodox Communion. One could argue that an awareness of the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics wouldn’t be of any interest or significance to the “average” Roman Catholic sitting in the pews, but I disagree. The more we know about each other, the more we see that we have far, far more in common. We should and can acknowledge our differences, but then we can work toward reunification. I personally believe that the reconciliation between East and West needs to happen before the Protestant Sects can be reconciled!
In Christ,
Pakesh
 
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Pakesh:
The more we know about each other, the more we see that we have far, far more in common. We should and can acknowledge our differences, but then we can work toward reunification. I personally believe that the reconciliation between East and West needs to happen before the Protestant Sects can be reconciled!
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certainly.

what i personally would like to see, is the capacity for the OO, EO, and RC churches to accept one another’s sacrements, and to be able to recieve the Eucharist at one another’s churches. :gopray:

i do have some understanding of why this would not be ok for a Catholic to do as of now, but one can hope.

that would certainly be a step, and a wonderful one. whether the churches in their uniqueness, Christological differences, theological diferences, unlike perspectives on the Papacy, whether all of that can be understood, worked through, and agreed on has yet to be seen.

but the increase of dialogue, respect, and recogntition one sees nowadays is remarkable, and exciting.
 
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