Through the Church and especially through the Sacraments.
Thank you for that.
The work of grace, to free us from our sins, to make us Saints, and to renew the whole world.
If I may slide back into an epistemological mode for a moment, do you suppose that you can know God’s made you and is making you a saint on the basis of knowing that God has been and is doing this, or is your knowledge limited to a more indirect proof like faithfulness to the sacraments? And what of people who don’t participate in the Sacraments, but God is at work anyway?
Same thing for renewing the whole world- can you know that God is renewing you or anyone else in a way that’s more direct than observing their faithfulness to the sacraments? For example, do you suppose that you can confirm this connection by saying “I know that God’s renewing me because He is renewing me in the following ways…”? Or, “Apart from an increase in faithfulness to the Sacraments, I know that this person/these people are being renewed by God because He is renewing them in the following ways…”
In my case, because I have rather a hard head and very stubborn nature, Jesus had to actually appear to me in person and tell me, face to face. I still didn’t believe it. I thought He was the Devil, at first, so I demanded tests and signs - which I received, as well.
What did He look like? Assuming He spoke audibly, what did He sound like and what did He say? Where were you (in general), how did it look like He got there, how did He move around, and how did He leave? What signs did you ask for, and how did He go about doing them?
Since you are more intelligent and more open to hearing the Holy Spirit than I was,
It’s not all that likely that I’m more intelligent than you, and I think anyone can discern the presence of God within them provided that He actually is there, it’s something they care to find out about, and God reciprocates by making His presence known in some way. I think it comes down to two things: One, asking God to at least make His presence known to you (which is not exactly a huge feat in terms of “hearing the Holy Spirit”) and two, an actual response from God whereby He affirms that your desire to know Him is consistent with His desire to be made known to you. People who have God dwelling within them don’t have that because of special skills or abilities. He’s there because He’s God and therefore has the ability to be there and do these things, and then it actually happens because He does it. As for when it happens, it happens exactly when He does it.
I’m a bit more hesitant in other aspects of “hearing the Holy Spirit,” but I attribute that to my naturally conservative and fairly cautious nature. (“Conservative” in an entirely non-political sense, of course). On the first order of simply knowing God is present within me, however, I concluded that I had to know one way or the other. (Romans 8…those who have the Spirit of God within them, and those that do not…) In my case, I found out He actually wasn’t there. After that, you know the rest.
it’s not very likely that you will experience the same thing to the same degree. At least, I hope not, because I think Jesus only does this sort of thing when every other possibility has been exhausted - hopefully, you will not try His patience to the same degree that I did. (And if He does have to appear to you, hopefully you won’t accuse Him of being the Devil!)
I’m sorry that it came to that point. I’m a little curious as to why you’d ask Jesus to appear to you visibly. When I was asking the Holy Spirit to indwell/transform/renew/sanctify me, I was just asking God to make me a Christian and do what He’s promised to do with everyone who belongs to Him- which, up until a certain point, was not true of me. I suppose a face-to-face meeting with Jesus would prove something to you if there were doubts of some sort…if that’s what you need, that’s what you need. In my case, I didn’t doubt that God existed or that He could do what He promised. I just happened to find myself in a situation where He hadn’t done it yet, so I asked Him to. But perhaps we had different needs that God had to meet in different ways.
But yes, I am absolutely certain that Jesus founded the Catholic Church, and wants everyone who loves Him to be a member of it, and obedient to it, not because He’s on some kind of a power trip, but for our own benefit, and out of love for each other.
Ordinarily, I would probably ask some detail-oriented questions. This time, though, I’ll just accept that you’re certain of it and that certainty means something for you, and perhaps I’ll hear the reasons at another time on a different thread. Unless you decide otherwise, it looks like I should probably just let it stand as is.
