The Non-Negotiables

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anrmenchaca47

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I heard Tim Staple talk about this. My question is this, What happens if a person running for president has 4 out of 5 that go against the non-negoitables and the other guy has 3 out of 5. Who do you vote for? I guessing you choose “the lesser of two evils” am I right? Please advise.
 
Just keep a few things in mind here.
  1. Tim Staples is NOT the pope, you can disagree with him on any issue you like and still be a good Catholic.
  2. Be very careful on here, because there are a lot of people who will try to tell you that if you do not vote the way that THEY vote, you are somehow not a good Catholic or even going to hell.
  3. Keep in mind the powers of an office, not just what a person says about an issue. Also remember that many (and this is going to SHOCK some people) politicians will LIE about almost anything if they think it will get them in office.
  4. What a person has done is more important to me by 1000x then what he says he is going to do. If a person says they are pro-life, but they voted for funding of abortions, what does that tell you? Same thing with helping the poor and any other issue. I care much more about a persons track record then their speeches.
As far as 5 points, I have not read them, so I am not going to comment on them. \

Pax :signofcross:
 
You vote for the candidate who is best suited for the job. If there are non-negotiable issues, and let’s assume there are 5 , then like you say vote for the guy who goes for 3 of 5, or 4 of 5, preferably 5 of 5.

The only way you’re going to get someone who fits all of what we want in a candidate is for an openly, practicing Catholic to run as president. Not sure there are a lot of those left in politics.
 
You vote for the candidate who is best suited for the job. If there are non-negotiable issues, and let’s assume there are 5 , then like you say vote for the guy who goes for 3 of 5, or 4 of 5, preferably 5 of 5.

The only way you’re going to get someone who fits all of what we want in a candidate is for an openly, practicing Catholic to run as president. Not sure there are a lot of those left in politics.
Yes! You’re hiring someone to do a job, you’re not deciding on canonization.

Aren’t Newt Gingrich and wife practicing Catholics?
 
Aren’t Newt Gingrich and wife practicing Catholics?
I guess he is. I have never heard that he was Catholic until today and it says on several sites that he is a Roman Catholic. That’s a good thing for me to look into.
 
Why are politics in the Sacred Scipture section?

Is it not enough that the World News has been saturated by it?
 
What happens if a person running for president has 4 out of 5 that go against the non-negoitables and the other guy has 3 out of 5. Who do you vote for? I guessing you choose “the lesser of two evils” am I right? Please advise.
What I do is not vote for anyone. I refuse to vote for evil. A vote in any race beyond dog catcher in a small town is inconsequential. The odds are greater you’ll die in a car wreck on the way to the polling place than your vote making a difference.

Since my vote wont make any difference I’d rather not compromise my conscience. The corrupt system of democracy relies on the fact that most people will gladly submit to the authority of the government even if it is largely evil because they think it is the will of the people and who can resist that. What truly scares politicians is people thinking the system is so irrelevant they dont vote at all. To be ignored is for them to lose the power they use for evil.
 
What I do is not vote for anyone. I refuse to vote for evil. A vote in any race beyond dog catcher in a small town is inconsequential. The odds are greater you’ll die in a car wreck on the way to the polling place than your vote making a difference.

Since my vote wont make any difference I’d rather not compromise my conscience. The corrupt system of democracy relies on the fact that most people will gladly submit to the authority of the government even if it is largely evil because they think it is the will of the people and who can resist that. What truly scares politicians is people thinking the system is so irrelevant they dont vote at all. To be ignored is for them to lose the power they use for evil.
Let you concience consider that hundreds of thousands of men gave their lives so that you could vote.

The blood of those dead men places all of us under a moral obligation to go vote, whether we think it makes a difference or not.

-Tim-
 
Let you concience consider that hundreds of thousands of men gave their lives so that you could vote.

The blood of those dead men places all of us under a moral obligation to go vote, whether we think it makes a difference or not.
Hardly, they died to give us the freedom to vote or not vote. They died for to preserve or gain liberty for themselves and their families/descendents. We owe them for that; but we don’t have to vote.

Liberty is liberty.
 
Hardly, they died to give us the freedom to vote or not vote. They died for to preserve or gain liberty for themselves and their families/descendents. We owe them for that; but we don’t have to vote.

Liberty is liberty.
It’s not just for the people who die to gain liberty for their families. We also owe it to the unborn children, the oppressed, the poor, the meek and the lowly. Simply not voting is saying: let the world have it’s way. By voting, you are at least attempting to bring mankind closer to doing God’s will on earth.
 
Let you concience consider that hundreds of thousands of men gave their lives so that you could vote.
What soldiers are you thinking of and against what enemy? The British let us vote. No enemy of the US ever took on fought to take away the vote (most if not all had voting). In fact the only threat to Americans voting was the Union Army which did cause some Americans to lose the ‘right’ to vote.

The communist countries all have and had voting. Voting is really not that important if the powers of the world can control who is even a candidate and what elected politicians actually do.
The blood of those dead men places all of us under a moral obligation to go vote, whether we think it makes a difference or not.
That does not follow. Choosing the lesser of two evils philosophy is a false dilemma. Not voting is very much a legitimate option. I knew a guy who grew up in a communist country. They voted there. In fact the government not only encouraged but coerced you to vote. The more people voted the more legitimacy the communist government could claim. He refused to vote and for that suffered. Not voting in some situations surely is the right thing to do. I think it is very much a legitimate principle in modern America. If peaceful resistance is legitimate than surely the peaceful resistance to the voting scam is a worthy practice.
 
Hardly, they died to give us the freedom to vote or not vote. They died for to preserve or gain liberty for themselves and their families/descendents. We owe them for that; but we don’t have to vote.

Liberty is liberty.
We have a moral obligation to guide our nation and our society into correct thinking and correct acting in accordance with God’s will.

We cannot pray in sincerity, “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven” if we don’t exercise our most basic rights such as voting with an eye toward helping God’s will to be done on earth.

Yes, we have a right under the US Constitution to do nothing with our lives. But that doesn’t make it right.

Personally, I don’t want to stand before Jesus and have him ask me about the pro-abortion candidate that got elected and why I didn’t go vote against him, especially when the polling place was right up the street and it only takes a half hour out of my life.

-Tim-
 
What soldiers are you thinking of and against what enemy? The British let us vote. No enemy of the US ever took on fought to take away the vote (most if not all had voting). In fact the only threat to Americans voting was the Union Army which did cause some Americans to lose the ‘right’ to vote.
I don’t think the British let us vote. If they did, it was not for representatives in a parlimentary or democratic government. Wasn’t that the whole point of the Declaration of Independance?

If the Axis had their way in World War II, we would not have the right to vote today.

If communism had it’s way, we would not have the right to vote.

Viet Nam and Korea was about the right of people to determine their own leadership vs totalitarian rulers.

And as a student of the Civil War who lives not two miles from where General Sherman marched 60,000 troops, I will reply that those who engage in armed rebellion against any nation forfeit their right to participate in the political system of that nation.

-Tim-
 
What I do is not vote for anyone. I refuse to vote for evil. A vote in any race beyond dog catcher in a small town is inconsequential. The odds are greater you’ll die in a car wreck on the way to the polling place than your vote making a difference.
Since my vote wont make any difference
I’d rather not compromise my conscience. The corrupt system of democracy relies on the fact that most people will gladly submit to the authority of the government even if it is largely evil because they think it is the will of the people and who can resist that. What truly scares politicians is people thinking the system is so irrelevant they dont vote at all. To be ignored is for them to lose the power they use for evil.
And yet, only two days ago, Mitt Romney won the Iowa caucuses by eight votes. This link (Wikipedia) shows a series of close elections – including seven ties! (The most recent were in 1994 and 2003, both in Quebec). The link lists a series of elections that were won by 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 votes.

Imagine if eight people who thought Romney was good had decided that their vote wouldn’t make a difference anyway. Or if you decided not to vote in a particular election, and then the guy you really disliked won by one vote.

It happens. Votes matter.
 
Even the Catechism of the Church says that we have a moral duty to vote for those representatives who support proper moral and political positions. To not vote is to evade that duty.
 
I don’t think the British let us vote. If they did, it was not for representatives in a parlimentary or democratic government. Wasn’t that the whole point of the Declaration of Independance?
Of course the British let us vote. Some positions were appointed like in the modern US with our many czars (from the Latin Caesar).

Colonial voting
If the Axis had their way in World War II, we would not have the right to vote today.
Why do you think that? The Empire of Japan had a parliament. Germany certainly did not have much in the way of elections after the Enabling Act. I’m not sure Germany wanted to conquer the US though. They would not have had any chance of success so them fighting to take away our vote seems unlikely.
If communism had it’s way, we would not have the right to vote.
Why do you think that? Communism considered voting fundamental. The Soviet Union had voting. China had voting. Poland had voting.
And as a student of the Civil War who lives not two miles from where General Sherman marched 60,000 troops, I will reply that those who engage in armed rebellion against any nation forfeit their right to participate in the political system of that nation.
Ah well that is a matter of perspective. Of course the other side thought they were fighting for their right to form their own government in accordance with the Declaration of Independence. So had the British won the war they would have been justified in taking away the vote?
And yet, only two days ago, Mitt Romney won the Iowa caucuses by eight votes. This link (Wikipedia) shows a series of close elections – including seven ties! (The most recent were in 1994 and 2003, both in Quebec). The link lists a series of elections that were won by 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 votes.
I dont deny there are close elections. I just say, rightly so, that the odds are greater you’ll die in a car wreck than make a difference in an election. Deaths in car wrecks are pretty common. Close elections are pretty rare. Many of those on the list are smaller races. The odds of a single vote making a difference depend on the number of eligible voters. In federal elections your vote has very little chance of making a difference. In the local dog catcher race your vote might matter. But what is strange is most people vote only in the big elections where their vote is irrelevant and do not vote in the local race where their vote might matter.

And note this case from your list United States Senate election in New Hampshire, 1974. They had a count and two recounts and each time came up with different numbers. So the votes did not matter as much as the counters. We saw the same thing in the 2000 US presidential election. The courts and the counters decided the ultimate winner of the election.
Imagine if eight people who thought Romney was good had decided that their vote wouldn’t make a difference anyway. Or if you decided not to vote in a particular election, and then the guy you really disliked won by one vote.
Eight people is a different issue than the individual. The point stands. Had one more person voted for Romney nothing would have changed. One person in 30,000 has little chance of making a difference. Yes, eight people in 30,000 has a greater chance of making a difference. But the decision is the individuals not a group of eight people.

And had this vote meant something it would now be recounted. There would be lots of lawyers filing motions about the vote. But this vote doesn’t really mean much. So it is not contested, nor is there any legal provision to contest it.

Despite Close Finish, No Recount in Iowa
 
Of course the British let us vote. Some positions were appointed like in the modern US with our many czars (from the Latin Caesar).

Colonial voting

Why do you think that? The Empire of Japan had a parliament. Germany certainly did not have much in the way of elections after the Enabling Act. I’m not sure Germany wanted to conquer the US though. They would not have had any chance of success so them fighting to take away our vote seems unlikely.

Why do you think that? Communism considered voting fundamental. The Soviet Union had voting. China had voting. Poland had voting.

Ah well that is a matter of perspective. Of course the other side thought they were fighting for their right to form their own government in accordance with the Declaration of Independence. So had the British won the war they would have been justified in taking away the vote?

I dont deny there are close elections. I just say, rightly so, that the odds are greater you’ll die in a car wreck than make a difference in an election. Deaths in car wrecks are pretty common. Close elections are pretty rare. Many of those on the list are smaller races. The odds of a single vote making a difference depend on the number of eligible voters. In federal elections your vote has very little chance of making a difference. In the local dog catcher race your vote might matter. But what is strange is most people vote only in the big elections where their vote is irrelevant and do not vote in the local race where their vote might matter.

And note this case from your list United States Senate election in New Hampshire, 1974. They had a count and two recounts and each time came up with different numbers. So the votes did not matter as much as the counters. We saw the same thing in the 2000 US presidential election. The courts and the counters decided the ultimate winner of the election.

Eight people is a different issue than the individual. The point stands. Had one more person voted for Romney nothing would have changed. One person in 30,000 has little chance of making a difference. Yes, eight people in 30,000 has a greater chance of making a difference. But the decision is the individuals not a group of eight people.

And had this vote meant something it would now be recounted. There would be lots of lawyers filing motions about the vote. But this vote doesn’t really mean much. So it is not contested, nor is there any legal provision to contest it.

Despite Close Finish, No Recount in Iowa
Your argument is basically a special case of the free-rider problem: it makes no difference if I personally refuse to vote / throw litter on the ground / park in a large fire lane / cut in line / etc.; therefore I will do so. But, when many follow that philosophy, society is adversely affected: it makes a huge difference when many people refuse to vote / throw litter on the ground / park in a large fire lane / cut in line / etc.

Therefore (I contend) none should do any of those things. We should all vote; we should all refrain from littering; we should all park in the parking lot, rather than in a fire lane; we should all queue up in polite lines; etc.

And that’s basically the premise underlying the argument that “Them that won’t vote can’t complain.”
 
Your argument is basically a special case of the free-rider problem: it makes no difference if I personally refuse to vote / throw litter on the ground / park in a large fire lane / cut in line / etc.; therefore I will do so. But, when many follow that philosophy, society is adversely affected: it makes a huge difference when many people refuse to vote / throw litter on the ground / park in a large fire lane / cut in line / etc.
I dont see it that way. In the case of free riders you are talking about someone consuming something without contributing to its production. I dont want the government I get and do not find I get much benefit from it. I do however contribute in terms of taxes for it. What I dont contribute is a vote for a representative. I dont do that because I do not see any material difference in the candidates. I’m quite convinced, and have lots of evidence, that it does not matter who wins. I’ll get the same government.

Voting is not good in and of itself. Voting is just a means of directing the political entity. If the people vote for objectively evil politicians then nothing good has happened.
And that’s basically the premise underlying the argument that “Them that won’t vote can’t complain.”
I disagree. Those who vote and get their guy elected cant complain. They got what they wanted. Those who voted for the guy who lost but who would have done the same as the guy who won shouldn’t complain because their complaints are silly, but they do.

I really dont complain. I just point out how terrible and corrupt the system is. It doesn’t bother me like it bothers the people who vote because I’ve accepted political reality. The people who complain the most are voters. The folks who dont vote ignore the system.
 
Not voting does not mean doing nothing. The greatest change you can make is influencing your surroundings and the people you know. The progressives did this perfectly in the 20th century. They didn’t start with a vote; they corrupted the populace first.

Having to choose between Diablo and Azmodeus is not a choice. You’re still voting for evil. And yes, you can complain if you did not vote. That argument is little more than a capitulation to the system and just reinforces the problems with our government.
 
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