The "nones" and their importance

[manualman]

Thanks for the clarification, Publisher. Would you say your explanation is fairly mainstream among Friends these days or is there simply such a diversity of belief there that one can’t produce a definition of Quaker beliefs anymore? (I think Anglicans are moving in that direction too).

As I said above, I don’t know how you guys manage a decent moral compass. Lord knows I’ve rationalized plenty of things in my life in spite of having external help to help me know better. We certainly share a gratitude for God’s Mercy!

 

[cheese_sdc]

Your last line is utterly absurd and you know it.

You are correct in a sense. One needs to closely examine their own experience of Divinity and critique it with complete honesty. But that doesn’t change the fact that an infinite Divinity will have infinite facets and an infinite amount of people will experience it in an infinite number of different ways.

Infinite.

 

[Publisher]

Thanks for the clarification, Publisher. Would you say your explanation is fairly mainstream among Friends these days or is there simply such a diversity of belief there that one can’t produce a definition of Quaker beliefs anymore? (I think Anglicans are moving in that direction too).

As I said above, I don’t know how you guys manage a decent moral compass. Lord knows I’ve rationalized plenty of things in my life in spite of having external help to help me know better. We certainly share a gratitude for God’s Mercy!

All Friends rely on the Light Within. Those Friends of the “evangelical” variety of the Friend’s Church put more emphasis on scripture than those of us in the unprogrammed meetings. But the Light Within is a reliable guide…once a month we have a “Convergence Meeting” in my area, where Friends off all persuasions meet for worship together…our differences are put aside at least for our time to worship together.

Our “moral compass” is easy enough for us to determine…if I am not able to affirm “Love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself”…my “moral compass” has moved of Center. We regularly meet to examine ourselves thru the “Queries” as a means of self reflection.

Our beliefs must reflect in our lives and how we treat others is a good indication of how “sqarely we stand in the Light.”

 

[Porknpie]

I struggled for years with Catholicism. I love the sacramental system - all of it. I believe that it captures the reality of Divinity infusing the physical. What I had trouble with is that I never experienced a loving, forgiving God of Christianity. The harder I looked, the more the God of Christianity seemed angry, unforgiving, and spiteful (apologies to the Catholics here - this is my personal experience and no amount of “You’re Wrong!” will change it. I’ve tried all already anyway).

The God of Christianity sent his Son to save us from our sins assuming that we repent and try to follow him. His gift is everlasting life. On the cross, a death by crucifixion, he told his Father to “forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.”

I don’t see anything angry, unforgiving or spiteful.

 

[cheese_sdc]

The God of Christianity sent his Son to save us from our sins assuming that we repent and try to follow him. His gift is everlasting life. On the cross, a death by crucifixion, he told his Father to “forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.”

I don’t see anything angry, unforgiving or spiteful.

I do. And I also don’t have the need to convince you of it. I’m merely happy that your path works for you.

 

[Publisher]

The God of Christianity sent his Son to save us from our sins assuming that we repent and try to follow him. His gift is everlasting life. On the cross, a death by crucifixion, he told his Father to “forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.”

I don’t see anything angry, unforgiving or spiteful.

I don’t think it’s the words of Jesus on the cross he has issue with but the “God” portrayed by those who call those claim to follow Him. At least that how I took his post.

 

[cheese_sdc]

I don’t think it’s the words of Jesus on the cross he has issue with but the “God” portrayed by those who call those claim to follow Him. At least that how I took his post.

Close.

 

[Porknpie]

I do. And I also don’t have the need to convince you of it. I’m merely happy that your path works for you.

I was reading about St Gregory Of Nyssa last night and his words (from The Fathers by Pope Benedict)

“(we) he must always examine his own thoughts, his own words, and his own actions in their inner most depths to see whether they are orientated to Christ or are drifting away from him.”

This is true for you, me and mankind. We all have our crosses to bear and we are all called to holiness. God - who is infinite love - is not beyond our comprehension although we will spend eternity getting to know him in heaven. God reveals himself in multiple ways through time.

Here’s a good article on the ways God has revealed himself through time for any interested “nones”

myfathershouse.com/pdf/How_God_Reveals_Himself,%20How%20We%20Hear%20His%20Voice.pdf
:coffeeread:

 

[cheese_sdc]

I was reading about St Gregory Of Nyssa last night and his words (from The Fathers by Pope Benedict)
“(we) he must always examine his own thoughts, his own words, and his own actions in their inner most depths to see whether they are orientated to Christ or are drifting away from him.” This is true for you, me and mankind. We all have our crosses to bear and we are all called to holiness. God - who is infinite love - is not beyond our comprehension although we will spend eternity getting to know him in heaven. God reveals himself in multiple ways through time.

Here’s a good article on the ways God has revealed himself through time for any interested “nones”
myfathershouse.com/pdf/How_God_Reveals_Himself,%20How%20We%20Hear%20His%20Voice.pdf:coffeeread:

I disagree with the first sentence of the article.

I also don’t agree with taking the Exodus and Genesis accounts as literal history, so this article really says nothing to me. Sorry.

This points to the biggest failing of Christians attempting to convince non-Christians. Christians point to the Bible and say “it’s in there!” Non-Christians just shrug and say “So?”.

 

[KathleenGee]

All people of good will work towards their salvation along with those who believe in the Divinity.

Yes, human words are inadequate to explain God Who is mystery. How can we define the Creator of all life beyond an act of faith that we believe in a Higher Power?

St. Thomas said his words teachings on the Divine…and they are awesome, having read one of his Summas in a class led by a Dominican…that his teachings were as straw having had a glimpse of heaven.

The downside of living the Catholic spiritual life is that of the desert, and approaching one’s final years where all past good intended, lived out, the personal union with God throughout one’s life is likewise looked upon as straw…and that the price of sin is death.

Will one’s life offering, in old age now looked as straw, be accepted by the Lord…especially when He asks…I was naked and you clothed me, I was hungry and you fed me, etc…Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta did not experience God’s presence and consolation for many years prior to her death. So many in faith see an increase in suffering and the Cross in greater spiritual life. Many experience great suffering in their personal lives faithful to Christ…it is scary. All our good deeds are so insignificant. All we can do is trust in His mercy.

The Lord’s mercy far exceeds any sins committed ever by humanity.

I think the reality of sin is quite sobering. And we can be of good will…and to believe in God is a grace given freely to us. But there is this reality likewise of sin and its consequences. It is not taken seriously today by modern man, in fact, what was considered public sin…such as fornication, is now considered a right to live and be funded and supported by the state.

 

[Porknpie]

I disagree with the first sentence of the article.

I also don’t agree with taking the Exodus and Genesis accounts as literal history, so this article really says nothing to me. Sorry.

This points to the biggest failing of Christians attempting to convince non-Christians. Christians point to the Bible and say “it’s in there!” Non-Christians just shrug and say “So?”.

I understand Cheese that you disagree but you disagree based on “what”…??..Where do you find truth to come to a conclusion that you diagree?

 

[Publisher]

I understand Cheese that you disagree but you disagree based on “what”…??..Where do you find truth to come to a conclusion that you diagree?

I’m not friend Cheese, but the world was not made in 6 literal 24 hour days. Plus in the 6th century BCE two separate creation myths were placed side by side as the Torah as we know it was taking it’s final shape. Large bodies of water, such as the Red Sea do not slit so people can walk upon dry ground, nor do rivers so holy men can cross. Pillars of fire and mystical clouds do not lead people across the desert, water does not flow from rocks when struck, magic poles with serpents upon them do not cure snake bite…we could go on and on…obvious mythical stories meant to teach deeper meanings.

If God does not change, which in the accounts in Genesis and Exodus portray Him as a tribal deity, one of many just the cheif god the Israelites were to worship, this god did a lot of changing from how he is portrayed in Genesis to how He finally was revealed in Jesus of Nazareth.

Trying to convince ‘unbelievers’ of the miraculous happenings that go so completely against reason of how our world actually operates would be much more difficult than convining believers, and I do count myself a believer in the Eternal God revealed fully in the life of Jesus of Nazareth, that these “signs and wonders” actually took place would be a great feat indeed.

 

[cheese_sdc]

I understand Cheese that you disagree but you disagree based on “what”…??..Where do you find truth to come to a conclusion that you diagree?

Well… even when I was a Christian, I never understood the whole “personal relationship with Jesus”. There is not one scriptural support for this concept.

As far as were I find truth - in the same place anyone finds Truth - in the quiet of the heart.

 

[KathleenGee]

I do believe that the Lord became a pillar of fire, that there was an event where the Red Sea parted…geographical science is pointing to this phenomena…and when an event coincides with a physical event on earth, it is called a theophany.

How could Moses and the Jewish people find the land of Israel by themselves?

How could Moses and the Jewish people develop their own moral code? They could not.

It was God Himself Who wrote on stone tablets the commandments. True authority always comes from above, the source of God Himself.

What could be myth was the creation story because it was shared by many of the ancients in similar form. There evidence of a great flood…when you consider the fact that in ancient days, the most distance people travelled then was about 22 miles.

There is too much symbolism imagery throughout Scripture that is consistent in the totality of sin offering and the coming of the Messiah, and the salvation of the world.

 

[cheese_sdc]

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/bibles-buried-secrets.html

You might find this interesting.

 

[manualman]

… Large bodies of water, such as the Red Sea do not slit so people can walk upon dry ground, nor do rivers so holy men can cross. Pillars of fire and mystical clouds do not lead people across the desert, water does not flow from rocks when struck, magic poles with serpents upon them do not cure snake bite…we could go on and on…obvious mythical stories meant to teach deeper meanings.
…
Trying to convince ‘unbelievers’ of the miraculous happenings that go so completely against reason of how our world actually operates would be much more difficult than convining believers, and I do count myself a believer in the Eternal God revealed fully in the life of Jesus of Nazareth, that these “signs and wonders” actually took place would be a great feat indeed.

These are enormous differences that you have with catholicism. And your inner condescension is showing in your shoice of the word “obvious” above. The Church acknowledges that the OT accounts before Abraham are “prehistoric” in the sense that they are more like poetic descriptions of what happened rather than CNN reports about it. But catholicism is innately a religion that believe in miracles, in a God who supernaturally manifests Himself in the lives of the people He created and loves. We did have a period in the last 50 years where a significant minority of scholars attempted to de-supernaturalize catholic teaching. They’re mostly old, retired or dead now and they utterly failed to spiritually reproduce themselves because their worldview was founded on cognitive dissonance. They professed to believe in an ‘enlightened’ version of christianity, but ultimately christianity without a God who reveals Himself miraculously is as worthless as St. Paul foretold.

I wonder if your issue isn’t really one of ego? Is it possible you disbelieve in supernatural miracles (God making exceptions to the laws of nature) simply because you’re insulted that God hasn’t chosen to gift you with one yourself? Jesus addressed that issue with St. Thomas. Food for thought.

 

[Publisher]

These are enormous differences that you have with catholicism. And your inner condescension is showing in your shoice of the word “obvious” above. The Church acknowledges that the OT accounts before Abraham are “prehistoric” in the sense that they are more like poetic descriptions of what happened rather than CNN reports about it. But catholicism is innately a religion that believe in miracles, in a God who supernaturally manifests Himself in the lives of the people He created and loves. We did have a period in the last 50 years where a significant minority of scholars attempted to de-supernaturalize catholic teaching. They’re mostly old, retired or dead now and they utterly failed to spiritually reproduce themselves because their worldview was founded on cognitive dissonance. They professed to believe in an ‘enlightened’ version of christianity, but ultimately christianity without a God who reveals Himself miraculously is as worthless as St. Paul foretold.

I wonder if your issue isn’t really one of ego? Is it possible you disbelieve in supernatural miracles (God making exceptions to the laws of nature) simply because you’re insulted that God hasn’t chosen to gift you with one yourself? Jesus addressed that issue with St. Thomas. Food for thought.

Ahhh yes…“ego” and “anger” and “insulted”…OR I just can’t find it in me to accept that God works outside of His laws of nature He placed in His creation…God works within the natural laws, it’s the things outside of this marvelous creation He wroght…I don’t believe God suspends the laws of nature for “belief”…perhaps another passage Jesus addresss about those who looked for sings and wonders…“food for thought”

I do understand however, it is much easier to project such negative motives and reasons upon one who rejects the outside of nature miracles of Genesis/Exodus/Joshua, than to believe a person of faith may have come to a differnt conclusion without “ego” getting in the way…or “anger” causing one to feel “insulted” by God instead.

 

[manualman]

Ahhh yes…“ego” and “anger” and “insulted”…OR I just can’t find it in me to accept that God works outside of His laws of nature He placed in His creation…God works within the natural laws, it’s the things outside of this marvelous creation He wroght…I don’t believe God suspends the laws of nature for “belief”…perhaps another passage Jesus addresss about those who looked for sings and wonders…“food for thought”

Good response, but what Jesus refers to there isn’t my position, but yours. He’s describing precisely the reason that miracles aren’t a dime a dozen. They aren’t there to be a substitute for our faith, to make life easy for us, or to make the life of faith about excitement and emotion. They are there because they manifest God’s love for us and in them He reveals Himself to us. They are rare enough so that the skeptical can choose to disbelieve if they like. God wants us to CHOOSE faith and Grace, not be compelled to it.

Perhaps it’s just phrased funny, but are you suggesting that catholics believe that miracles are occasions when God suspends the laws of nature in order to reward belief? That’s Benny Hinn, not the Catholic Church. I can perhaps agree with you on that objection. Catholics understand that God performs miracles to reveal Himself to humanity as an expression of love for us, not to be the carrot counterpart to Hell’s stick.

 

[seeker57]

My computer goes down for a few days and this thread gets going.

Figures.

Having read through the entire thread, I have to say one of the key differences I perceive here is whether or not someone believes revelation is sealed.

In other words, I believe the divine is still being revealed to us, through many sources including science, various religious philosophies, and even humanism.

I would hazard a guess that some who have posted here would disagree with that.

But this discussion would certainly demonstrate how the “nones” have come to be.

If you are trying to share you beliefs with someone, which Christians seem to like to do, but you use this “you must believe this, or else.” type of attitude, the people you are trying to influence will opt for “or else.”

Peace,

Seeker

 

[cheese_sdc]

If you are trying to share you beliefs with someone, which Christians seem to like to do, but you use this “you must believe this, or else.” type of attitude, the people you are trying to influence will opt for “or else.”

Quoted for truth.