The "nones" and their importance

[Publisher]

My computer goes down for a few days and this thread gets going.

Figures.

Having read through the entire thread, I have to say one of the key differences I perceive here is whether or not someone believes revelation is sealed.

In other words, I believe the divine is still being revealed to us, through many sources including science, various religious philosophies, and even humanism.

I would hazard a guess that some who have posted here would disagree with that.

But this discussion would certainly demonstrate how the “nones” have come to be.

If you are trying to share you beliefs with someone, which Christians seem to like to do, but you use this “you must believe this, or else.” type of attitude, the people you are trying to influence will opt for “or else.”

Peace,

Seeker

Agreed friend. God still speaks, still reveals Himself in His creation, our lives, our insights, we still have much to learn of God. The people called Quakers began because a young man sought to find God within the religious sects of his day, but found Him, not in the liturgies and prayers and books and songs…but within as God spoke and revealed Himself directly, with the “opening” to his spirit that we have a living faith, the One who spoke 2000 years ago…still speaks, still seeks to make Himself known, still ministers to those who Listen, regardless of faith tradition or religious affiliation, God in known “experimentally”…experientially, inwardly for each of us bears ghe Divine Image and shares “that of God” as part of our humanity.

 

[Porknpie]

If you are trying to share you beliefs with someone, which Christians seem to like to do, but you use this “you must believe this, or else.” type of attitude, the people you are trying to influence will opt for “or else.”

Seeker -

Computer issue happened to me too recently. We have this in common.

You are posting on a Catholic website. I’m not sure what else you would expect? Christ clearly says to go out and preach the good news…good news that has been protected by the Church and reflected in tradition and scripture since his resurrection.

Attitudes are a compilation of and formed by beliefs. The attitude that you are hinting at sounds like “we are right” and “you are wrong”. In a sense, you are probably right in this observation (you convey this as well) but there are degrees of truth found outside of the Catholic church and even outside of Christianity. So it’s not always black and white. It’s the “or else” part that I do not understand what you are saying? What do you mean by this?

Peace, Pork

 

[manualman]

There’s rather a difference between the idea that general revelation is completed and closed and the idea that we know know all we ever are going to. It’s kind of like declaring yourself an expert Thomist because you’ve been given a set of the complete works of St. Thomas (nevermind if you’ve read them, much less comprehended them yet). So I think there’s a wee bit of distortion there in your implications about catholicism versus your religious worldview.

What sets Catholicism apart (IMO, of course) from all other religious approaches is that while revelation is dogmatically proclaimed, that dogma totally corresponds to reality. In other words, catholic dogma doesn’t restrict one’s freedom and ability to develop in character over time via a relationship with Christ. On the contrary, the dogmas are like a map through the minefield that help us to avoid the pitfalls and disasters that have claimed so many lives and souls throughout history. They assist the person in being the human being they were created to be and help him avoid that which holds him back from that goal. They are how we learn who God is and of how much He loves us (enough to die to save us).

The problem with the idea of an “inner light” being the ultimate moral authority is one of human nature. While man is, indeed, created good in God’s image, he is also fallen due to the disaster of sin. The idea that one can rely totally on an “inner light” is fundamentally incompatible with catholicism, that teaches that man is reliant on God’s Merciful intervention in Christ to be restored to goodness. All too often, one’s inner light will seem to tell the man who rejects authority outside himself precisely what he wants to hear. He remains unaware of the minefield he is in until he steps on one.

I hope I don’t come off as smug saying so. I’d absolutely be guilty of that if these were MY ideas. But they aren’t, they’ve been given to me, I’m grateful and I’d love for others to comprehend the beauty and freedom of trusting God to give the Grace of forgiveness and the wisdom to learn from our mistakes. In my life I’ve become convinced that revelation is a totally reliable source of that wisdom and the Church is a reliable interpreter of that revelation.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus said essentially that if we saw Him…we then saw the Father.

How then can one say you believe in the miracles and healings of Christ but cannot believe in the miracles of the Father?

Likewise, the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, Son of God…consubstantiated…of one substance.

The Eucharist is the same God Who free the Jews from slavery in Egypt, led them out by the Pillar of Fire, parted the Red Sea…where chariot wheels and other items are now being discovered at the bottom of its waters, to the same God Who fed the Jewish people in the desert with manna from heaven…and this manna from heaven fulfilled in the Eucharist!!!

I was taught to always bless myself passing a Catholic Church that contained the tabernacle where our Lord resides. This is what He mean that He would always be with us.

 

[manualman]

Kathleen, if I read Publisher right, he thinks the physical miracles of Jesus are pious myths made up after the fact too. But I really ought to let him speak for himself on the matter.

 

[Publisher]

Kathleen, if I read Publisher right, he thinks the physical miracles of Jesus are pious myths made up after the fact too. But I really ought to let him speak for himself on the matter.

I have no doubt that as in today’s world, in Jesus time there were those who went about as “miracle workers” or “exorcists”…they were quite prevelant from the historical records of the time as I understand it.

The gospels are not “biographical” of Jesus of Nazareth. " Mark", most scholars believe, was written first, with “Matthew” and “Luke” a few decades later using “Mark” as their source plus independent information added not found in “Mark”.

As with some of the “gospels” not chosen to be included in the canon, the passion story was probably written first to provide a reading along with the Jewish scriptures read during Passover…and as more and more Jews came to accept Jesus as Messiah, their congregations added to the liturgical story of Jesus to include readings for the major feast/celebrations of the Jewish year, including Jesus in the sacred story of Israel…re-telling some of the great stories of the Pentatuch, with Jesus now as the focus of God’s revelation.

The transfiguration echos back to when Moses was transfigured…even with two of Israel’s greatest religious figures in attendence with Jesus on the Mt. of Transfiguration, Elijah.

Story after story echos back to the sacred story of Israel, but with Jesus as the subject to be included in the liturgical year of the Jews as they read thru the Torah each Sabbath of their liturgical year.

I don’t beleive that the “miracles” were necessarily actual events written decades after the fact…but the sacred stories of Israel retold.

After 70CE, and the seige and destruction of Jerusalem, and the “separation” of Jew and Christian…as the rabbis fought to preserve the Jewish nation in the Diaspora, Christianity was “born”, no longer did it exist along side within Judaism…so in the gospels…especially “John’s” we have reference to “you shall be put out of the synagouge for my sake…”…The “God-fearers” who had joined with the “Jesus sect” of Judaism since circumcision kept many Gentiles from joining Judaism…even though they embraced the Jewish ethic and the One God…it became easier for them to have the “circumscision not done with hands” as the Jewish mikvah was adopted in “baptism” as a “substitute” of circumcison.

The miracles recorded in the gospels go part and parcel with the sacred story of Israel…mythic tellings that pointed to Jesus as Messiah. God had again entered Israel’s religious life.

Believing in Jesus’ miracles is something I have no strong conviction of embracing. Ghandi was rumored to perform miracles…but in the modern age we live in with TV, we know he didn’t…but as he inspired a nation to freedom…so Jesus of Nazareth revealed an understanding of a God of love and mercy not fully embraced before his words moved crowds to follow him.

 

[manualman]

To boil the above down, miracles only happen in the heart, not in the physical world?

I suppose you extend this opinion to the bodily resurrection of Jesus? Or have you taken the Fr. Raymond Brown approach of de-mythlogizing everything BUT the resurrection? The historical-critical method had a lot of traction among catholic scholars for a couple of decades. But they’re mostly retired now and the newer crop actually believes in catholicism again. Thank God.

 

[Publisher]

To boil the above down, miracles only happen in the heart, not in the physical world?

I suppose you extend this opinion to the bodily resurrection of Jesus? Or have you taken the Fr. Raymond Brown approach of de-mythlogizing everything BUT the resurrection? The historical-critical method had a lot of traction among catholic scholars for a couple of decades. But they’re mostly retired now and the newer crop actually believes in catholicism again. Thank God.

I believe Jesus was raised to his Father…He lives more surely than you or I do…He is Truly Present each First Day at meeting. The resurrection is Holy Mystery, and I don’t pretend to fully understand how the disciples experienced the Christ Presence in their midst…all I know is my own experience…that I experience His Presence in a very real and profound way…I believe He is alive more than fully than human mind can comprehend. It is Mystery.

I realize this may not satisfy many…but it’s all I can affirm in honesty…I believe He lives, not because I have seen Him…but because I have experience His Presence.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks for clarifying, Publisher.

I do recognize and experience your faith in Christ, and the experience of recognizing His presence among you.

Now, isn’t this a miracle, considering Christ lived and died 2,000 years ago? And do you believe in the Resurrection…which is miraculous to us but not to God…

Because with God anything is possible?..

 

[cheese_sdc]

It’s the “or else” part that I do not understand what you are saying? What do you mean by this?

Not sure if serious. Catholics (and other Christians) are quite fond of saying “Believe this or go to Hell!”.

 

[KathleenGee]

All people of good will work out their salvation in one form or another.

The universal Catholic apostolic Church provides us the fullness of Revelation of Who Christ is, the Bridge to the Father.

Likewise, Christianity is based on the belief that Christ lived, died as atonement for our sins, and rose from the dead, breaking the power of both sin and death.

You can say that the Resurrection is as well miraculous. But God is the Creator Who wills what He wills and can do all things.

I heard a priest speak the other day about atheists Hitchens and Hawkins, not sure of correct spelling. But he said philosophically, these two men are Bugs Bunny…one of them described God in a very bad way…but then turns and says he believes in men from outer space.

There are many now being prepared in the Church to evangelize, to lay down our life for others, to bring the reality of Christ to others. Let’s see how it affects the ‘nones’, who have been indoctrinated against religion, but cultivated in our culture of death.

It is God Who is the Author of Life and Spirit.

 

[Porknpie]

Not sure if serious. Catholics (and other Christians) are quite fond of saying “Believe this or go to Hell!”.

I have not observed this attitude on CAF so I’m not sure what your experience is with Catholics outside of CAF. I have observed Catholics and non-Catholics faithfully explaining and defending their faith. Sometimes emotionally, sometimes not. As my favorite Jesuit says “God is Management, we are in Sales”. We are not to judge. God will judge in all fairness. That said, we are called by Christ to speak the Truth as the Church teaches. And, Catholics believe that the most assured way of salvation is to belong in Christ’s Catholic Church established on earth and to participate in the sacraments that he has established.

 

[PRmerger]

Not sure if serious. Catholics (and other Christians) are quite fond of saying “Believe this or go to Hell!”.

If you ever hear a Catholic proclaim this you can tell him that this is not a Catholic paradigm.

We do not proclaim, “Believe this or go to Hell!”

It is above our paygrade to declare where someone goes after death.

And you can tell that to any Catholic who tells you “Believe this or go to Hell!” and you will sound infinitely better catechized than said Catholic.

 

[cheese_sdc]

We do not proclaim, “Believe this or go to Hell!”

You know, I really think you’re sincere about this. However, I’d ask that you understand where atheists and de-converts (the “nones” that are the subject of discussion) come from. I’m not sure that believers understand the courage it takes the atheist or other “de-convert” to take their new path. Every day, they face the knowledge that they have defied the god of their childhood; a god that threatens hellfire and damnation; a god that threatens them with physical illness; a god that promises to turn his back on them. Yet, they continue, choosing to live a life of authenticity.

For some of us, that struggle is not far in the past and it doesn’t take much to rub old wounds raw and bleeding.

 

[KathleenGee]

Atheists have the highest turnover rate and eventually come to belief in God in spite of humanity.

Which is the problem…it is not about us, it is about the saving and redeeming power of Jesus Christ and we are called to keep our eyes on Him and not on man, or else our faith fails.

 

[PRmerger]

You know, I really think you’re sincere about this. However, I’d ask that you understand where atheists and de-converts (the “nones” that are the subject of discussion) come from.

I don’t believe atheists and de-converts can be construed as one behemoth, so it’s really hard to read/interpret/extrapolate “where atheists and de-converts come from”.

I’m not sure that believers understand the courage it takes the atheist or other “de-convert” to take their new path. Every day, they face the knowledge that they have defied the god of their childhood; a god that threatens hellfire and damnation; a god that threatens them with physical illness; a god that promises to turn his back on them. Yet, they continue, choosing to live a life of authenticity.

Interesting, but a non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with any Catholic declaring that you have to believe something or go to Hell.

For some of us, that struggle is not far in the past and it doesn’t take much to rub old wounds raw and bleeding.

I understand that.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Interesting, but a non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with any Catholic declaring that you have to believe something or go to Hell.

Think about it.

 

[PRmerger]

Think about it.

Again, if a Catholic tells you that you have to believe something or you will end up in Hell, you can correct them, and show them that you are better catechized than they are.

 

[manualman]

You know, I really think you’re sincere about this. However, I’d ask that you understand where atheists and de-converts (the “nones” that are the subject of discussion) come from. I’m not sure that believers understand the courage it takes the atheist or other “de-convert” to take their new path. Every day, they face the knowledge that they have defied the god of their childhood; a god that threatens hellfire and damnation; a god that threatens them with physical illness; a god that promises to turn his back on them. Yet, they continue, choosing to live a life of authenticity.

For some of us, that struggle is not far in the past and it doesn’t take much to rub old wounds raw and bleeding.

Christians remain humans and therefore remain subject to the same foibles and flaws as everybody else. Arrogance and Pride loom large among those problems. I’m pretty sure those vices are behind the experiences of people like you who, due to the poor witness of christians, have concluded that God is angry, vengeful and somewhat arbitrary. People do like to gloat, and christians aren’t immune.

Hell is not a place God angrily tosses those who refuse to lick his boots. Hell is simply the absence of God’s presence and love. Think about it. If heaven really exists and it really is a place where no one is selfish, no one is abusive, angry, violent, greedy, slothful, arrogant, etc then something has to happen to us before we can be present there. If let in as-is, we’d trash the place, no? God offers us the Grace to be transformed and remade back into His image. If we refuse that, we simply build our own hell. God doesn’t send people there, they simply refuse to leave because they don’t trust Him. Sometimes we clearly see how we need changing and sometimes we’re so attached to our sins that we don’t WANT to change. But if we don’t, the hell of our own making awaits us. The good news is that although we lack the discipline and willpower to remake ourselves, we have an offer of help. Don’t refuse it just because of some proud loudmouths.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Again, if a Catholic tells you that you have to believe something or you will end up in Hell, you can correct them, and show them that you are better catechized than they are.

So if I don’t believe in the Divinity of Christ, His Lordship over the Earth, and the Atonement on the Cross, I won’t go to Hell?