The "nones" and their importance

[manualman]

So if I don’t believe in the Divinity of Christ, His Lordship over the Earth, and the Atonement on the Cross, I won’t go to Hell?

Not a question any of us can answer. Christ revealed only one sure path to salvation for humanity, that we know. We also know that He did that out of love for us and a desire to save us. Beyond that lies speculation. I’d speculate that since God knows the deepest part of your heart, He will know how you’ve responded to the offers of Grace you’ve received - whether you’ve truly embraced them or rejected them. I suspect that there are those who embrace Grace even while appearing to reject it on the surface. I won’t pretend to be able to tell where YOU are at. He’s God, I’m not.

But I will say that for myself, I’m awfully glad I don’t need to gifure eeverything out utterly from scratch. Sure is nice to have a divinely revealed map of where the land mines lie in life. Doesn’t mean I still don’t step on an awful lot of them, but I can’t say I wasn’t warned they were there!

 

[KathleenGee]

Good responses, Manualman.

I am reading the daily reflections of Pope Benedict, ‘Benedictus’…and how to come to Christ is an Event…a force that is constantly hitting at us…it is always there…until it finally breaks through and then we have this encounter with Christ that is life changing.

If a person is on the path of compassion for other people, to treat people accordingly the way one would want to be treated, one is walking on the path of mercy and justice.

Sometimes I think purgatory is likewise a continuation of the journey of discovery for those who live by the Golden Rule…just my musings.

As far as God condemning people to hell…God does not condemn…Instead the soul sees the consequence of its choices and it then flings itself in the direction it has already been going. Tragic.

God is speaking to us 24 hours a day…and wanting to providing a living that is full of life and joy…even in the Cross.

 

[PRmerger]

So if I don’t believe in the Divinity of Christ, His Lordship over the Earth, and the Atonement on the Cross, I won’t go to Hell?

It depends upon your understanding of all of the above.

I once heard a Catholic proclaim, “I believe all that the Church professes, except for the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. I simply cannot believe that Mary’s parents conceived her in any other way than the natural way.”

How would you respond to that person?

My response would be: you are rejecting that which you don’t know.

 

[cheese_sdc]

It depends upon your understanding of all of the above.

I once heard a Catholic proclaim, “I believe all that the Church professes, except for the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. I simply cannot believe that Mary’s parents conceived her in any other way than the natural way.”

How would you respond to that person?

My response would be: you are rejecting that which you don’t know.

I always understood the Immaculate Conception to be silent on the mechanics of Mary’s conception, rather it speaks to the state of her soul (being born without Original Sin).

 

[manualman]

I always understood the Immaculate Conception to be silent on the mechanics of Mary’s conception, rather it speaks to the state of her soul (being born without Original Sin).

Exactly. That’s his point. Said people have rejected something without comprehending what it IS first. If they haven’t comprehended it, have they really rejected it? Not an easy question to answer.

 

[PRmerger]

I always understood the Immaculate Conception to be silent on the mechanics of Mary’s conception, rather it speaks to the state of her soul (being born without Original Sin).

Right.

So here’s a person who thinks he’s rejecting a Catholic dogma. Except that what he’s rejecting isn’t Catholic dogma at all.

Same could be said for you.

So that’s why one ought never say, “If you reject the dogma of the divinity of Christ you are going to Hell.”

 

[cheese_sdc]

I probably understand Catholic doctrine better than y’all think. However, growing up in a fundamentalist Catholic Charismatic household has left an indelible mark on my psyche that a few lines of “official doctrine” will never erase.

Unless you’ve gone through what I have, it is difficult to understand.

 

[manualman]

No offense intended, but that’s nearly the textbook definition of “invincible ignorance.” That word “ignorance” has a heavily pejorative meaning in today’s usagle, but in it’s technical sense it really only means “not aware of or comprehending of.” In your case the emotional negative connotations just can’t compete with the esoteric doctrinal explanations of catholicism. I get it better than you think, but from the opposite direction. I grew up in the ‘fuzzy bunny’ era of catechesis when it took them 5 years to teach you little more than that Jesus loves you and now let’s color some saint pictures. I was in college before I encountered christians that possesed a faith worth being by lions for - and they weren’t catholics. I had my share of resentments too.

 

[KathleenGee]

In a number of parishes in the 1970’s, a number of Catholic charismatics left the church. They drew more and more into Protestant evangelical fundamentalism.

We all have our issues in coming to our faith. Some times we have to take a time out and just pray and reflect on solid Catholic guidance and wisdom in finding our way…praying helps alot.

 

[manualman]

Late edit: that should have read EATEN by lions. Darn brain/finger disconnect…

 

[PRmerger]

I grew up in the ‘fuzzy bunny’ era of catechesis when it took them 5 years to teach you little more than that Jesus loves you and now let’s color some saint pictures

Yep. That watered-down catechesis could be summed up with, “God made the world. God loves you. Jesus is God’s son.”

And they took an entire year to teach those concepts!

 

[seeker57]

To respond the question about, “or else,” I wasn’t thinking of Catholicism specifically, but Christianity in general.

I tend to lump all Trinitarian Christians into one group, for better or worse.

While I haven’t run into too many Catholics who were overtly aggressive in their attempts to convert me, some Protestants can be downright antagonistic at times.

But the basic context is the same. Christians believe that they need Jesus to find salvation and those who eschew this belief are condemning their souls to exclusion from heaven. Some Protestants express this as being “saved.”

Just so everyone understands, my Universalist roots don’t come with the need for salvation or the exclusion from heaven attached. These concepts were foreign to me and were something I learned about when studying other belief systems.

That said, the idea behind my earlier comment was that some Christians, not all, but some, can be dictatorial in the sharing of their beliefs and there are many who find this alienating.

This, I think, could be where some of the “nones” are coming from.

Peace,

Seeker

 

[manualman]

Seeker, most of us catholic know the sort of fundie christian you’re talking about. Those guys consider us just as lost as they do you. We get the same treatment. You sometimes think they are more interested in carving notches in their bible cover than in spreading good news…

And once you encounter somebody like that, it’s easy to assume the worst of the next guy you come across who loves God and is eager to tell you about it. But they’re not all that way. Many are genuinely concerned about you and just aren’t very careful or skilled about showing in a way that doesn’t come off to you as condescending. Give 'em a break - they’re human too.

 

[seeker57]

Yes, I know. One shouldn’t judge everyone by a few bad examples.

I have to admit such a leap is tempting, especially considering how many trinitarian Christians feel, and express those feelings, about Unitarians.

But, just as I had to learn about the concepts of salvation and sin, which are not part of my faith tradition, I have had to learn that not all Christians are Fred Phelps or Rick Warren.

In fact, some are great examples of what I believe Christians espouse, such as the Rev. Desmond Tutu or Mother Teresa.

Peace,

Seeker

 

[RebeccaJ]

There have been several news stories recently, including in the New York Times, regarding the number of people who claim no religious affiliation. They are called the “nones.”

Coincidentally, I recently watched a very interesting interview with Salman Rushdie, where he stated the Islam he grew up with doesn’t resemble the Islam of today. He said today, Islam has been corrupted by fanatical minority sects.

Rushdie went on to say that this phenonemon is not islated within Islam. He said there has been a resurgence of Hindu fanatacism in India. He also cited the Christian fanatics in the U.S.

What he said made me consider the growth of the “nones” in the U.S. and Europe. If religions have come to be viewed as the realm of fanatics, wouldn’t that explain why so many people are simply eschewing the whole idea and pursuing their spirituality in other ways?

Keep in mind the nones now make up about 20 percent of the population in the U.S., and that number is growing.

If this premise is sound, how could religious organizations address this perception and will they?

Peace,

Seeker

Seeker, having been a “none” myself in the past, for much longer than I have had a religious affiliation, I’d say from my own experience you are partially correct. Certainly, religions can make it difficult to reconcile reason to faith, and it is easy to just say “screw it, I don’t have to believe anything”.

Secular society makes this even easier, in several ways, but most of all in its caricaturization of religious beliefs. How can we address it? That in itself is a secular sort of idea, as though we had better get on top of the PR and make sure our spin is being heard above the secular spin.

For myself, that is more off-putting. I have no interest in “Four out of five religious scholars choose X.”

We can only live our faith. Whether or not that is “attractive” to the nones, is secondary. It isn’t the “nones” who judge our lives, it is God.

“Nones”, whether or not they realize it, have set God to the side and put something in His place.

 

[cheese_sdc]

“Nones”, whether or not they realize it, have set God to the side and put something in His place.

This is a great example the attitude that really turns me off. It’s the attitude that says “We know better than you.” It’s a condescending attitude that assumes that “believers” have a superior “knowledge” than a non-believer.

 

[LEMAITRE]

This is a great example the attitude that really turns me off. It’s the attitude that says “We know better than you.” It’s a condescending attitude that assumes that “believers” have a superior “knowledge” than a non-believer.

I don’t think that statement by RebbecaJ was condescending. It was a ‘truth’ for her, Nones don’t believe in God, believers do therefore to a believer Nones have set God aside. Similarly from a believers perspective atheists have put God aside and Man has replaced him. From an atheists perspective God doesn’t exist so it doesn’t matter.

RebeccaJ’s statement actually has deeper theological roots regarding Relativism, God vs Man and what forms, changes and strengthens the “human spirit” is it from within himself or does he receive from those around him or from a higher spiritual whether that be called Odin, Thor, Allah or Yeshua.

You persist in scraping around the shallow end of statements. Dig a little deeper.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is a great example the attitude that really turns me off. It’s the attitude that says “We know better than you.” It’s a condescending attitude that assumes that “believers” have a superior “knowledge” than a non-believer.

That is how you have chose to interpret what I said. It is not what I said though.

People have different perspectives. As a hypothetical example, a person believes a candle should be lit every morning, and it is important to their ritual that a particular person lights the candle.

Along comes someone who doesn’t know about all the things surrounding the ritual of the morning candle lighting, and thinks a candle burning in the morning is a nice thing…and they light the candle.

The person who holds beliefs surrounding the lighting of the candle, says, “hey there, I like the burning candle too, but there is significance to who lights the candle”, and the other person says, “To me, whoever lights the candle has the same significance.”

Is this saying one person has a better knowledge than the other? Maybe you think so? I don’t think so.

I see different perspectives.

 

[Porknpie]

This is a great example the attitude that really turns me off. It’s the attitude that says “We know better than you.” It’s a condescending attitude that assumes that “believers” have a superior “knowledge” than a non-believer.

Cheese,

Really, are you having a bad day?

 

[KathleenGee]

I spoke with a young man over the weekend…He is a Christian Democrat. He said it is cool right now for young people to be atheists.

How can we make it ‘cool’ to be a follower of Christ? Isn’t cool meaning…having admiration from people?