The not-so-evil Spanish Inquisition

[MPat]

I don’t believe in punishing people for beliefs, only actions. You?

And I don’t believe that you really believe what you claim to.

I also have evidence on my side: you had an opportunity, but didn’t manage to say that Hitler shouldn’t have been punished for “Mein Kampf”.

And if you really had the beliefs you claim to have, you would have found that pretty easy.

I’m also getting an impression that you do not know what your beliefs on this matter are, that you never actually thought about them.

 

[KevinK]

What punishment would you have recommended for writing Mein Kampf? Your insults are meaningless to me.

 

[jdavani]

Well peter did cut off a dudes ear so from the outset we were messing up

 

[AlNg]

It appears that the inquisition was among the most progressive tribunals of the day.

i read somewhere that the Spanish Inquisition used methods of torture including the rack and the strappado and others also? Do you say that this is not true?

 

[Curious11]

No I don’s say that it’s not true. I say that it was less brutal in its use of torture than other tribunals of the time

 

[MPat]

What punishment would you have recommended for writing Mein Kampf?

I don’t know.

You know, that’s the point. I do not know the right punishment, and neither do you. But I do know that I do not know it, and can admit it. And you, apparently, cannot…

Your insults are meaningless to me.

Insults? What do you consider to be insults?

 

[KevinK]

This comment here:

I’m also getting an impression that you do not know what your beliefs on this matter are, that you never actually thought about them.

 

[MPat]

This comment here:

MPat:

I’m also getting an impression that you do not know what your beliefs on this matter are, that you never actually thought about them.

Well, I am getting that impression. After all, evidence clearly contradicts your claim that you believe that no one must ever be punished for his beliefs.

That leaves two possibilities: either you do not really know what your beliefs on this subject are, or you do know and keep lying. I think that the first possibility (you not knowing what your beliefs are) makes you look better, and thus choose it.

There is nothing especially wrong with not knowing what your beliefs on some subject are, as such. You only have to be willing to honestly investigate them, and all problems will be corrected.

And I am trying to encourage you to do just that.

 

[KevinK]

When I asked you directly what punishment would be appropriate for writing Mein Kampf you say you don’t know. Of what use is recommending punishment but no idea what that punishment should be? Such totalitarian book burning thinking. Its a good thing you weren’t involved in the Inquisition.

 

[MPat]

When I asked you directly what punishment would be appropriate for writing Mein Kampf you say you don’t know. Of what use is recommending punishment but no idea what that punishment should be? Such totalitarian book burning thinking. Its a good thing you weren’t involved in the Inquisition.

You know, something tells me that, perhaps, you shouldn’t complain about insults… For something tells me that “totalitarian book burning thinking” was not meant to be a term of endearment…

When I asked you directly what punishment would be appropriate for writing Mein Kampf you say you don’t know.

Yep. And you evaded this question for six (6) posts now.

Of what use is recommending punishment but no idea what that punishment should be?

I am not recommending any punishment. I am saying that I am not sure about this subject. And thus I am not willing to condemn someone else for making a wrong guess too harshly.

Its a good thing you weren’t involved in the Inquisition.

Yes, it’s a good thing.

But I guess it is also a good thing that you weren’t.

For I am not sure that harshly condemning Inquisitors now would translate to being lenient with suspects then… And perhaps you shouldn’t be sure either.

 

[vz71]

You folks carry on with this “rationalize the morality of the Inquisition” thread. I am out. This thread makes me embarrassed for my faith.

Given the tone of your posts, I believe you were already.
Generally when people jump into judgement of the church so vehemently, they are trying to justify something of themselves.

 

[KevinK]

Is it your position that if today an American citizen wrote a book like “Mein Kampf”, that person should be punished in some form by the state?

 

[goout]

No I don’s say that it’s not true. I say that it was less brutal in its use of torture than other tribunals of the time

The newfound chapter of the Gospel:
“I say unto you, accept the less brutal evil so that your evil may be less evil than the other guy’s evil…”

Don’t think so…

 

[Curious11]

Thankfully there is no such chapter (although sometimes life does force us to choose the lesser evil, every 4 years for instance) The inquisition was evil and should never be brought back, but it was not what it has been made out to be.

 

[Gene_Church]

This is a common problem with modern analysis. We use 21st Century analysis to judge actions 100s of years ago. It creates a scenario where there are no heroes, and where those today are judged virtuous as to those in the past.

 

[Curious11]

Pretty much. I don’t believe we cannot judge people in the past, but we should be careful in doing so

 

[exnihilo]

It also isn’t very Catholic.

But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded.

The direction we go in and the length we move are in fact relative to where we start. Us moderns with our tremendous material comfort and education may be held to a far greater standard. And I don’t mean any standard of man.

 

[goout]

This is a common problem with modern analysis. We use 21st Century analysis to judge actions 100s of years ago. It creates a scenario where there are no heroes, and where those today are judged virtuous as to those in the past.

That’s not how it should be. There is heroism in every age.
What should happen is an enlightened moral sense has the vision to see that things like torture, polygamy, genocide, dashing babies heads, etc…are evil in God’s sight always and everywhere at all times. Human endorsement notwithstanding.

Culpability of the individuals and judgment of their virtue due to limited understanding of the moral law and customs of the day is another matter.

 

[MPat]

Is it your position that if today an American citizen wrote a book like “Mein Kampf”, that person should be punished in some form by the state?

Specifically “an American citizen”? Then the answer is easy: “I refuse to interfere in the internal affairs of United States of America.”.

After all, I am not an American. Nor do I desire to become one.

But you might note that other nations (and nations that are clearly considered to be democratic) do have relevant laws. For example, Wikipedia (Legality of Holocaust denial - Wikipedia) lists some. Thus, in some countries, “Incitement to hatred”, “Holocaust denial”, “Publicly condoning international crimes” and the like can result in a prison term. The highest term mentioned as actually given seems to be 6 years.

And I do not see those laws as obviously unjust.

If you want to argue otherwise, perhaps you should actually try to make a case, instead of just being outraged.

 

[KevinK]

What case have you made for you authoritarian book-burning censorship?