The Novus Ordo

[StellaMaris3]

Part IV

Source: catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/vatican.htm

Fr. Bernard Otten, S.J. commenting on the above Council states that “(Pope) Martin V, at the close of the Council, approved only in a general way what had been enacted by conciliar procedure in matters of faith - in materia fidei conciliariter statuta” - A Manual of History of Dogmas, Volume II, 1918, Pg. 456

As another example we may mentioned how the teaching of the Council of Florence on the matter and form for the Sacrament of Holy Orders [15] was set aside by Pope Pius XII in his Apostolic Constitution “Sacramentum Ordinis” (1947). Pope Pius XII, in defining the matter and the form declared that the Council of Florence did not mean to teach that the action of touching the chalice and paten presented to the ordained was necessary by virtue of the will of Our Lord Jesus Christ, without setting the question as to whether this action could become part of the matter of the Sacrament by virtue of the power of the Church, Some theologians [16] deny it, which amounts to saying that the Council of Florence was mistaken on this point.

There is also the example of the illegal Council of Pistoia, which was held in September of 1786 by the Bishop of Pistoia and Prato, in a daring effort to secure the errors of Jansenism. The Council attempted to spread errors by emphasising the notion of “Community”, by giving bishops more authority " much like Vatican II did by the proclamation of collegiality of bishops, and many other errors of the illegal Council of Pistoia. This council was condemned and eighty-five of its propositions were stigmatized as erroneous and dangerous.

Pius VI on 28 August, 1794, dealt the death-blow to the influence of the council in his Bull “Auctorem Fidei”, which condemned the propositions of this illegal council:

“[To contend that] ways must be prepared for people to unite their voices with that of the whole Church – if this be understood to signify the introduction of the use of the vernacular language into the liturgical prayers – is condemned as false, rash, disturbing to the order prescribed for the celebration of the sacred mysteries, easily productive of many evils.” (Auctorem Fidei)

The ever-prevalent contention that the above facts seek only to undermine the authority of the Churches Magisterium is brought forward as an opponent that needs clarification.

The difference between doctrinal and pastoral teachings has great implications at Ecumenical Councils. This is because the Church has never taught that all Church Councils are in and of themselves infallible. St. Robert Bellarmine, points out that, “Only by the words of the general Council do we know whether the fathers of that council intended to engage their prerogative infallibility” [17]

St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori affirms that:

“What is found to have its origin in the opinion of some Holy Father or particular Council is not a Divine Tradition, even though it should be celebrated throughout the entire Church. For if we did not attend to this rule, we should have to admit without certain foundation, new revelations regarding faith or morals, which has been always abhorred and impugned in the Church by men the most attached to religion. Hence, the sovereign pontiffs, the Councils, and the Fathers, have been most careful to reject all novelties or new doctrines on matters of faith, which differed from those that had been already received.”[18]

These words are simply a reiteration on the words of first Vatican Council :

"For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by His revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by His assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or Deposit of Faith transmitted by the Apostles."[19]

For a document of the Magisterium to be considered infallible there are very precise elements, which are necessary. These elements are a continuity with Tradition (2 Thess 2:10; 1 Corith 11:23, Gal. 1: 8), universality in time and place [20] and the clear will of the Pope to engage his authority for the ordinary pontifical Magisterium. If either of these elements is not present the acts are not in any way guaranteed with infallibility. In other words if the Ordinary Magisterium is to be infallible, it must be traditional (Sacrae Theologiae Summa, Salaverri, Vol. 1 5th ed.). If it breaks with Tradition, the Ordinary Magisterium cannot claim any infallibility.

Some Catholics erroneously think that Magisterium is equivalent to Pope. It is not. In Latin, Magisterium is neuter. It is a thing, not a person. It is the teaching authority of the Church. That teaching authority, however, must be derived from Our Lord and His Apostles. It must be based on the Catholic and Apostolic Deposit of Faith. Vatican I made it clear, dogmatically, that the teaching of any pope (or, a fortiori, bishop) who teaches outside the Apostolic Deposit of Faith is null and void.

This Magisterium or “teaching authority of the Church”, exists in a few different modes. It is termed “Solemn” or “Extraordinary” when it derives from the formal and authentic definitions of a General council. It is termed “Ordinary and Universal” when it manifests those truths which are expressed through the daily continuous preaching of the Church and refers to the universal practices of the Church connected with faith and morals as manifested in the decisions of the Roman Congregations concerning faith and morals. It also termed “Ordinary and Non-Infallible” when it regards the non-infallible doctrinal decisions given by the pope or by the Roman congregations.

The Magisterium is termed “living” because, being true, it exists and exerts its influence, not only in the past, but in the present and future. It is termed “authentic” or “authorized” only as regards the person himself, not as regards his infallibility. [21]

 

[StellaMaris3]

Part V

Source: catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/vatican.htm

Hence we can clearly comprehend why "these doctrines (of the Second Vatican Council) are not even part of the Church’s authentic (i.e., ordinary, non-universal) teaching, because the bishops expressed no intention to hand down the Deposit of the Faith; on the contrary, their spokesmen (e.g., Paul VI) expressed their intention to come to terms with the modern world and its values, long condemned by true Catholic churchmen as being intrinsically un-Catholic. Therefore, the documents of Vatican II have only a Conciliar authority, the authority of that Council, but no Catholic authority at all, and no Catholic need take seriously anything Vatican II said, unless it was already Church doctrine beforehand. [22]

Ultimately, the Magisterium is not any particular pope, but simply the authority of the Church, by divine appointment, to teach the truths of religious belief; the commissions of the Church to teach; the teaching office of the Church; the teaching and interpreting of the doctrines of the faith carried on by the Church through the Pope and bishops and those commissioned by them. It may be ordinary when a doctrine is proclaimed throughout the Church as part of divine revelation; or extraordinary when a general council defines a doctrine ratified by the Pope or when the Pope speaks as the official teacher of the Church (ex Cathedra) proclaiming or defining a matter of faith or morals. The Catholic Church is not a congregation of people agreeing together, it is not a School of Philosophy or a Mutual Improvement Society. It is rather the Living Voice of God and Christ’s revelation to all people, through all time. It teaches only what its divine Master taught. [23]

Vatican II would at most come under the Ordinary non Infallible Magisterium, to which one owes assent only according to a prudential judgment:

“Since not everything taught by the Ordinary Magisterium is infallible, we must ask what kind of assent we should give to its various decisions. The Christian is required to give the assent of faith to all the doctrinal and moral truths defined by the Church’s Magisterium. He is not required to give the same assent to teaching imparted by the sovereign pontiff that is not imposed on the whole Christian body as a dogma of faith. In this case it suffices to give that inner and religious assent which we give to legitimate ecclesiastical authority. This is not an absolute assent, because such decrees are not infallible, but only a prudential and conditional assent, since in questions of faith and morals there is a presumption in favor of one’s superior… Such prudential assent does not eliminate the possibility of submitting the doctrine to a further examination, if that seems required by the gravity of the question” [24]

Again we read in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“But before being bound to give such an assent, the believer has a right to be certain that the teaching in question is definitive (since only definitive teaching is infallible)…” [25]

In the case of Vatican II it would be highly imprudent to give our assent without departing from the faith to a great number of its works. Archbishop Felici, the General Secretary of Vatican II did not hesitate to state that Catholics must “make reservations” on those declarations from the Council “which have a novel character” [26]

 

[StellaMaris3]

Part VI

Source: catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/vatican.htm

Fr. Gregory Hesse states well that we ought to reject Vatican II as whole but not in everything (“in toto sed non in omnibus”). As a whole since undeniably this council (and the “Spirit of the Council”) has worked only for the destruction of the faith. However it would be rash to reject everything in the sense that at times it does refer us to sound Catholic teachings, yet while accepting those things which pertain to the deposit of the faith we can only affirm that the Council as a whole was a disaster for the whole of Christendom.

Pope Pius II already condemned Vatican II some 500 years before hand in his decree Exerabilis [27] which condemned anyone who would presume to call a council to alter any Catholic dogmatic teaching.

Ambiguity may be said to be one of the great hallmarks of the Second Vatican Council as by means of it a great number of erroneous notions have been introduced and whole heartedly embraced by a greater number of the Post Conciliar Hierarchy. It doesn’t take a theology degree to recognize that the language of documents since Vatican II is decidedly different than those of previous years. What once was clear and precise, giving little room for alternative interpretations is now vague and questionable. The impact of the ambiguity can never be overstressed since it was by this means that the modernists (long ago condemned by Pope Pius X) succeeded in taking victory at the Council.

Pope Clement XIII stipulated in his decree, Dominico Agro, of two centuries ago that none of the faithful should have “extraordinary opinions proposed to them, not even from Catholic doctors; instead, they should listen to those opinions which have the most certain criteria of Catholic truth: universality, antiquity, and unanimity.”

We have only the contrary coming forth from the Councils documents. This method (of ambiguity) alone would have been enough to wreak disaster in Church. This important issue can never be over emphasized.

To instill in our minds the great destruction that has resulted by the ambiguous terminology used by the Modernists since Second Vatican Council we simply need parallel it will a great event in History, namely the Arian crisis of the fourth Century where the Council of Nicea (325) defined that the Son is consubstantial (homoousion) with the Father. This meant that, while distinct as a person, the Son shared the same divine and eternal nature with the Father. The term homoousion thus became the touchstone of orthodoxy. No other word could be found to express the essential union between the Father and the Son, for every other word the Arians accepted, but in an equivocal sense. They would deny that the Son was a creature as other creatures - or in the number of creatures - or made in time, for they considered him a special creation made before time. They would call Him “Only-begotten,” meaning “Only directly created” Son of God etc., however this word (homoousion) alone they could not say without renouncing their heresy. [28]

Many bishops and the faithful complained that too much fuss was being made about the distinction between homoousion and homoiousion. They considered that more harm than good was done by tearing apart the unity of the Church over a single letter, over an iota (the Greek letter “i”). They condemned those who did this. Yet St. Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria refused to modify in any way his attitude and remained steadfast in refusing to accept any statement not containing the homoousion or to communicate with those who rejected it. The fact is (as history has confirmed) that St. Athanasius and his supporters were right. That one letter, that iota, spelled the difference between Christianity as the faith founded and guided by God incarnate, and a faith founded by just another creature. Indeed, if Christ is not God, it would be blasphemous to call ourselves Christians.

If a great number of Catholics died at the hands of the blood thirsty Arians simply because they refused to accept one iota of change in the same word, what might we say of the volumes of ambiguity which were approved in the name of the Second Vatican Council? Is it not evident that Vatican II has failed in its duty towards the faithful who look to the Church for guidance?

 

[StellaMaris3]

Part VII

Source: catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/vatican.htm

On this ambiguity Bishop Williamson had these insightful words say, “Vatican II was not even an Anti-council, it was an explosion. If you wish for the proof, look around you. Now that explosion which is the true spirit of the Council, is hidden in three ways beneath the letter or documents of the Council. Firstly, the documents contain many ancient and un-attackable truths alongside the new doctrine. Secondly, the new doctrines are often presented beneath ambiguous formulae, which allow the conservative Catholics to state there is no problem in the documents of the Council, the whole problem is in the so-called after-Council or aftermath of the Council. Thirdly, the novelties, once you draw them out of the documents, have their own coherency, and so the appearance of a system. So the novelties of Vatican II look like a system, but in fact it is the systematicness of an explosion.” [29]

In fact, Paul VI, who promulgated the documents of the Council in 1965, like his predecessor began to reject the fruits of that Council. He issued two startling statements to that effect:

"The Church finds herself in an hour of anxiety, a disturbed period of self-criticism, or what would even better be called self-demolition [auto-destruction]. It is an interior upheaval, acute and complicated, which nobody expected after the Council. It is almost as if the Church were attacking itself. We looked forward to a flowering, a serene expansion of conceptions, which matured in the great sessions of the council. But … one must notice above all the sorrowful aspect. It is as if the Church were destroying herself. [30]

" We have the impression that through some cracks in the wall the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God: it is doubt, uncertainty, questioning, dissatisfaction, confrontation… We thought that after the Council a day of sunshine would have dawned for the history of the Church. What dawned, instead, was a day of clouds and storms, of darkness, of searching and uncertainties". [31]

Let’s take a quick look at what has happened to the Catholic Church since the 2nd Vatican Council.

“By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.” (Matt. 7:15-17)".

Infant Baptisms dropped by over 360,000 in the US from 1960 to 1985. The National Catholic Education Association said that from 1965 to 1978 Catholic schools lost more than 2 million students and closed over 3,600 schools. The Catholic abortion rate now runs 30% higher than it does for Protestant women. The number of nuns in the US from 1964 to 1992 declined by 82,000. The number of seminarians in the US has dropped from 48,000 in 1965 to 1,300 in 1988. The number of converts from 1960 to 1985 declined by almost 64,000. There were 338 annulments granted in 1968 and 59,030 in 1992. From 1952 to 1956 there were 39 annulments worldwide. In 1990 alone, there were 62,824 annulments. In the USA, nearly all (98%) who apply for a judicial ecclesiastical decree of annulment and finish the procedure, are awarded an annulment. An annulment is a declaration by Church authority which states that a marriage was never valid by reason of a known or hidden impediment. From 1965 to 1973,between 22,000 and 25,000 priests left the priesthood to get married. By 1994, this figure had reached almost 100,000. In 1970 there were 1,003,670 women religious with perpetual or provisional vows; in 1992 that number was down to 655,031. In 1962, there were 46,189 seminarians in the U.S. By early 1992, this number had plummeted to 6,247. [32]. In countries such as France and Holland the percentage of Catholics at Mass each Sunday has declined to a single digit. In the U.S., attendance has declined from 71 percent in 1963 to 25 percent in 1993, a decrease of 65 percent. Newsweek polls and surveys show that only 15% of Catholics believe they should always obey Church teaching, nearly as many Catholics think abortion is permissible as non-Catholics, and 75% of Catholics disagree with Church teaching forbidding divorce and contraception. Another study revealed that only 25% of Catholics now believe in the Real Presence and only 50% of the priests.

Given the foregoing, it would be plain blindness to deny the disastrous effects Vatican II has had on the Church. Nevertheless with the continued denial of this fact on part of the greater number of the Catholic hierarchy we shall only continue to witness destruction of the faith on a global scale.
"Certainly the results of Vatican II seem cruelly opposed to the expectations of everyone, beginning with those of Pope John XXIII and then of Pope Paul VI. Expected was a new Catholic unity, and instead we have been exposed to dissension which, to use the words of Pope Paul VI, seems to have gone from self-criticism to self-destruction. Expected was a new enthusiasm, and many wound up discouraged and bored. Expected was a great step forward, and instead we find ourselves faced with a progressive process of decadence that has developed for the most part precisely under the sign of a calling back to the Council, and has therefore contributed to discrediting it for many. The net result, therefore, seems negative. I am repeating here what I said ten years after the conclusion of the work: it is incontrovertible that this period has definitely been unfavorable for the Church." --Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, December 24, 1984, L'Osservatore Romano.

 

[StellaMaris3]

Conclusion and Footnotes:

Source: catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/vatican.htm

Conclusion

It might be said without temerity that “Man” inspired the Second Vatican Council for the glorification of “Man” an exaltation that has ultimately worked only to the detriment of the faith.

This Council, which “in many respects can be described as a revolution,” [33] has no dogmatic force and can be held to be imprudent or even in error, with no compromise to one’s Catholic faith as many of the false innovation that were introduced or brought about as a result of this council have already been clearly condemned by the Church.

Without such sound principles and clear Catholic reasoning it isn’t soon before one forgets one’s Catholic Faith and replaces it with the very set of Modernistic heresies condemned by Pope St. Pius X as we have see happen all to often to a great number of men who supposedly go by the name of “Catholic”.

Ultimate we can do no better than assume to ourselves the sound advice of St. Paul “Scrutinize everything carefully, retaining only that which is good”… “hating that which is evil, cleaving to that which is good”. [34]

Foot notes:

1. Statement, apud Lucio Brunelli, 30 days, September 1993, P. 50.
2. See our article on Religious liberty & The 25 errors of Vatican II - See also Religious Liberty and the Second Vatican Council by Michael Davies
3. Cardinal Ratzinger, El Mercurio, July 17, 1988
4. Interview I.C.I 15/5/69
5. Cf. Catholic Encyclopedia, “Infallibility” 1910
6. Fr. Gregory Hesse, “Outside the Church there is No Salvation”, Catholic Family News, February 1997 [IV:2], pp. 13 et seqq).
7. Petri Privilegium, III, p.24
8. Cardinal Henry Manning, The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost, Burns, Oates: London, 1909.
9. The Catholic Controversy, Burns & Oats, London, 1886, pg. 218.
10. Alice Muggeridge, The Desolate City (revised & expanded ed./1990), p. 72; letter from Fr. Joseph W. Oppitz, C.s.s.R. in “America” magazine of April 15, 1972
11. Father Ricossa, Sacerdotium, Issue #15 (2899 East Big Beaver Rd, Troy, MI) p. 60.
12. In the Murky waters of Vatican II, by Atila Sinke Guimaraes, pg. 237
13. Philip Hughes, A History of the Church, vol. 1: The Church and the World in Which the Church Was Founded ,1934; London: Sheed and Ward, 1979, p. 282.
14. W.H.C.Frend, The Rise of Christianity (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1984), p. 853
15. Sessio VIII, November 22, 1439
16. Cf. Sacrae Theologiae Summa, BAC, Madrid, IV, p. 639
17. De Conciliis, I, 17.
18. St. Alphonus Liguori, Exposition and defense of all the points of Faith discussed and defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Dublin 1846, Pg. 51
19. Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4, “De Romani Pontificis Infallibili Magisterio”
20. St.Vincent of Lerins, Commonitorium.
21. Salaverri, Sacrae Theologiae Summa vol. I, 5th ed., Madrid, B.A.C.no.659ff.
22. Fr. Pierre Marie, editor of the French Traditional Dominicans’ quarterly, Le Sel de la Terre
23. Matt 28:18; I Tim 6:20 ; II Tim 1:14;Tit 1:9;Gal 1:8; I Jn 2:20; II Jn 2:20, I Jn 9:12).
24. Nicolas Jung, Le Magistère de l’Èglise, 1935, pp.153 -154, Cf. DTC “Église” in, vol.IV, col.2209.
25. Catholic Encyclopedia, “Infallibility” (1910)
26. An Open Letter to Confused Catholic, Marcel Lefebvre, Angelus Press, pg. 107.
27. Dz 717
28. M. L. Cozens, A Handbook of Heresies (London, 1960) p. 34
29. The Heresy of Americanism and Vatican II
30. Pope Paul VI, December 7, 1968, Address to the Lombard Seminary at Rome
31. Pope Paul VI, June 29, 1972, Homily during the Mass for Sts. Peter & Paul, on the occasion of the ninth anniversary of his coronation in his response to Vatican II
32. In the Murky Waters of Vatican II, Statistics need not be taken since these facts are more than evident!

33.His Eminence Christopher Cardinal Schonborn, Die Tagespost, March 10, 2001

1. I Thessalonians 5:21; Romans 12:9

 

[StellaMaris3]

And lastly Bookcat, please be advised of the following canonical delimitations of Vatican II:

Source: catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/vatican.htm

"Vatican I (a dogmatic council, which Vatican II was not) makes it very clear that the pope is SUBSERVIENT to the Deposit of Faith. Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI explicitly chose to withhold dogmatic authority from Vatican II. Therefore, whatever it did or however it is interpreted, it has none of the weight of the dogmatic Council of Trent and Vatican I. Rather we may say that since the Second Vatican Council has failed in its role as council and is no more than “sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal”.

It is often stated that during the rebellious first session of the Council, Pope John XXIII who convoked the Council was to change his view in such a way that that he began to resemble those prophets of doom for which he had only contempt. Yet this **began to change when he realized that the papacy had lost control of the process, he attempted, as Cardinal John Heenan of Westminster later revealed, to organize a group of bishops to try to force it to an end. Before the second session opened he had died. **[10]

**Padre Pio had hoped for the same thing for prophetically he could see the road down which it this Council would lead the Church and so Pellegrino (a lifelong friend of Padre Pio) testifies how Padre Pio counseled all the Council Fathers who came to see him, to put an end to Vatican II. **[11]"

This Council was the first to invite non-Catholic “observers” to participate in its proceedings, who took an active part in the proceedings behind the scenes as is well pointed out by Michael Davies in his work on " Pope John’s Council". The very presence of these non Catholic observers must have had an inhibiting effect on the Council Fathers. It was the first Council to be declared “pastoral” rather than “dogmatic” if other councils, did have pastoral propositions, they were nevertheless dogmatic Councils. It was the first council that neither delimited Catholic doctrine from contemporary errors, nor issued disciplinary canons. When requested by hundreds of Council Fathers for the condemnation of Communism - certainly the principal error of the time, they were sidetracked by those in control - in clear violation of the Council’s own rules of order - as reported by Father Wiltgen (The Rhine Flows into the Tiber) and others.

It is canonically possible for a future pope to annul the outcome of the council, as it was merely a pastoral council. Cardinal Ratzinger affirms the same saying that " Not all valid councils, after being tested by the facts of history, have shown themselves to be useful councils; in the final analysis, all that was left of some was a great nothing." [12]

Ergo, Bookcat, you erroneously condemned my original posting as “denigrating” to Vatican II. Indeed, I am well within my right to express my ‘reservations’ with any doctrine not deemed infallible.

"Catholics are, therefore, within their rights to make reservations regarding any novelties emanating from Vatican II that are out of step with Sacred Tradition and the previous (continuous) Magisterium of the Church. Vatican II unlike previous Church Councils, did not pretend to bolster the faith of the faithful by means of clarifying those unchangeable truths of the Catholic faith, [3] but rather dealt with theological conclusions which on a number of issues were contrary to the Church teaching or at least ambiguous enough to encourage a non Catholic interpretation. As Cardinal Suenens explains “one could make an astonishing list for propositions taught yesterday, and the day before in Rome, as the only acceptable ones, and which were eliminated by the Conciliar Fathers”[4]"

So, whilst I fully respect the current Pope and the Catholic Church’s espousal of Vatican II as a pastoral council, it did not provide any Dogmatic “articles of Faith” I am obligated to believe in order to be professed a Catholic.. That is – VATICAN II was not designated INFALLIBLE by the Pope. Thus, I prefer the pre-Vatican II TLM. However, for those that prefer the Novus Ordo Mass, I have no objection to their personal choice as it is their right of freedom to choose this technically “valid” mass. But remember, “valid” is a technical term and has not prevented the litany of liturgical abuses and innovations by those offering the Novus Ordo Mass in the past (Caveat: However, the Pope is attempting to reform such abuses). Thus, another reason why I prefer the TLM.

For a detailed explanation, please see iteadthomam.blogspot.com/2006/07/why-avoid-novus-ordo-mass-if-it-is.html.

Pax vobis,
StellarMaris3 – Forever a loyal and faithful Catholic

---

 

[Jack_Bauer]

I have mixed feelings on this. But since I haven’t been to an EF mass since the 60’s as a child, I can compare it properly. What I can say is that I love the OF mass when done reverently and particularly in Latin. Further clarification. I like it particularly in Latin when said by a particular priest because I have been to his masses many times and love his sincerity and reverence. He also says the words of absolution in Latin. He has been trying to get permission to say the TLM for a long time, but has been told no. He’s a Friar, and that may have something to do with it.

I really like the Anglican use parish mass as well. But I still find it odd that a priest faces away from the congregants, even though I understand it theologically. What I can’t stand is EMHC’s acting like priests. I also do not like women in places where I feel men should be placed. I firmly believe that women taking over such roles is what’s killing vocations to all consecrated religious and ordained ministries. I prefer to receive at the rail, something I never realized I would like. But the priest feels that not distributing the Blood of Christ is an abuse. Intinction is used by the priest to distribute communion like the Orthodox.

 

[Little_One0307]

First and foremost you have filled up this thread with a bunch of schismatic thinking.

Second, this goes against forum rules in that these posts are anti-Vatican II as well as disparaging to it.

Third Raymond Toauk is a priest of the SSPX which is not in Communion with Rome at this time. This organiziation does not represent the Catholic Church.

Fourth the responses to Bookcat about his myopic understanding of Vatican II was really uncalled for.

God bless.

 

[Revert_43]

Here’s an interesting perspective on the OF version of the Mass

firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/07/the-excellence-of-the-latin-novus-ordo

A couple of thoughts I have, I think if the OF of the Mass is celebrated in a reverent manner a lot of issues related to OF versus EF would be put to bed.

I attend a NO Mass because that’s what my local parish offers, while I would prefer to attend the EF because of the reverence my gut feeling is that I should stay in my local parish. I can’t explain it, it just seems to be the right thing for me to do.

With that said, I’d like to see reverence return to the OF of the Mass. Use Latin for the non changing parts of the Mass and vernacular for the readings, gospel and homily. I do agree with the author of the above post that the 3 years cycle of readings is a little too much for the average person and the banality of the translation. I’m looking forward to the new translation this coming Advent and really hope a new translation of the LoTH follows soon.

 

[Little_One0307]

I do want to say this in light of Revert_41’s comment. When Novus Order Mass is celebrated reverently, it is beautiful and very sacred. It’s sacred to begin with of course because Jesus is made present on the Altar during the Mass. I enjoy those celebrations of Novus Ordo Masses.

And to be fair, I have seen many beautifully done Novus Ordo Masses celebrated. I am sorry for the disparaging remarks if it was taken that way.

God bless.

 

[TrueLight]

Allegra,

You should see if you can find a TLM that’s done as a dialogue Mass. There is one in NY, at St. Eugene’s in Yonkers.

Ah. Another church for me to visit.

I’m with you Allegra. I really like when the congregation can sing. It helps put my mind into worship mode.

 

[MissRose73]

I have only known the Novus Ordo Mass as I was born after Vatican II.

I have attended a few Extra Ordinary Form Masses, and much love the reverence & respect shown by the congregation before/during/after Holy Mass compared to Novus Ordo. It has helped me be re-enforced in those items even more now.

 

[curlycool89]

I’ve only ever attended the OF, but I really have no real desire to attend an EF. It’s just not something I’m personally drawn towards, but I have no problem with people who are.

I like that it’s in English, because then I can understand the whole thing; I can intellectually and spiritually follow along (I think someone else mentioned this one too). I don’t like following along in a book (I’m going to try and memorize the new translations ASAP so I don’t have to do that for long. Shouldn’t take too long) because I find it to be more of a distraction. It helps me to participate more fully.

I like being able to participate in a variety of ways (as a partitioner, or alter server, EMHC, reader).

I don’t like some things about it, like the Eucharistic prayer that goes “When we eat this bread and drink this cup we proclaim your death Lord Jesus, until you come in glory” because it is pretty heretical! We’re not eating bread, or drinking a cup!!

It’s a direction quote from Paul, in a passage where he freely interchanges “bread” and “body” and “cup” and “blood”. The theology is rock-solid.

[edited]

 

[curlycool89]

I prefer to attend the Ordinary Form because the Extraordinary form is not offered in my parish. I think there is just one in the whole diocese each Sunday and it is very early and very far. I prefer not to spend so much of my “day of rest” driving.

I like going to my parish and attending the OF Mass. At some other parishes, it is hard to follow the Mass; the priests ad lib and I can’t concentrate as well if I can’t follow along. That’s one thing I miss about the EF; I always could follow along in the Missal.

I like that the priest faces us. Of course it isn’t the same as leading us in prayer like in the EF but it is very familiar. I feel like I am back in high school with my band director.

I like the music in the OF Mass too. Many of the songs are the same folk songs I sang in the 70s. They aren’t very theological but they make people smile and that’s what’s really important at Mass, right?

I like that the Mass is said in so many languages. At the old Mass, I can understand the parts in Latin but in the new Mass I may not understand a single word. It’s so much more multi-cultural that way.

Apparently my first response to this was “too inflammatory”. Fine, we’ll try again.

Corki, do you really need the sarcasm? If you don’t like the OF then just say it. You don’t need to come and patronize the rest of us.

 

[pnewton]

I like singing. I like understanding the language.

 

[dans0622]

Apparently my first response to this was “too inflammatory”. Fine, we’ll try again.

Corki, do you really need the sarcasm? If you don’t like the OF then just say it. You don’t need to come and patronize the rest of us.

Indeed. I thought your inflammatory response was rather tame. Besides, I thought this was a thread in which people who like the OF could say why, not where we pick a few OF abuses, perceived shortcomings, or things we find lacking, and then hit the snark-lock key and pummel them.

Dan

 

[TimothyH]

“When we eat this bread and drink this cup we proclaim your death Lord Jesus, until you come in glory” because it is pretty heretical! We’re not eating bread, or drinking a cup!!

For me, devotion to sacred scripture comes second only to devotion to the Eucharist and Mass. I don’t mean to call you out FF, nor do I want to go off topic but I feel strongly that this needs a reply.

No part of the Novus Ordo or any other approved Catholic Mass is heretical. The verbiage cited is Memorial Acclamation C and if it is heretical, then the passage in the Bible from which it is taken almost verbatim is also heretical.

*For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. (1 Corinthians 11:26) *

When we acclaim those words at Mass, we are simply restating our belief in what Paul told the Corinthains so many centuries ago. The restoration of the Roman Missal which we will start using in the USA on the first Sunday in Advent keeps Memorial Acclamation C essentially intact and if it were heretical, then Jesus’ own words in John 6 would be heretical.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." (John 6:51)

Jesus calls himself living bread and says that his flesh given up for the life if the world is bread. Many of the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church called the Eucharist the “Bread of Angels” and the “Cup of Salvation”. We know that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus under only the appearance of bread and wine, but if Jesus can call his sacramental presence the “Bread of Life” and St. Thomas Aquinas can call Jesus’ sacramental presence the “Bread of Angels” then we should have no discomfort about doing so as well. The fact that these are St. Paul’s words taken directly from the Bible should give us no pause whatsoever when we say it at Mass.

-Tim-

[EDIT] Just saw curlycool89’s post.

 

[Windmill]

If I grew up with the way Mass is said now, I’d never recognize it as the same in the EF.

Unfortunately, I think this is a very powerful statement about how Mass is celebrated today. When someone can look at the way Mass was celebrated for centuries by countless saints whose lives we admire and emulate, and say to themselves, “That isn’t MASS, is it?”, then I think we need to do some serious course correction.

 

[GwenL]

We are blessed with priests (Franciscan friars) who celebrate a very reverent OF.

I like the homily and readings in English, the ordinaries in Latin, and the propers in English. That way I understand everything.

I much prefer ad orientem. I love the symbology and theology of the priest leading us in prayer to the Lord, and leading us to the East, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to Christ.

I like hearing what is going on. I like hearing the words of consecration (in Latin). I like hearing all of the priest’s prayers. I find it easier to focus and pray with him.

I like being on the same page as the priest. Often, in the EF, the priest is doing one prayer (silently) and the choir is doing something else. That is confusing to me. I can’t handle more than one prayer at a time.

I like singing, even though the only thing I add to the music is volume.

I like the Old Testament readings, the continuity and variety. Especially at daily Mass.

Our rector celebrates the EF once a month and it is beautiful. I go every time and love it. But I much prefer the OF, with ordinaries in Latin, celebrated ad orientem.

 

[Bbigam]

I truly love both forms of Holy Mass, but here are some things I prefer about the Ordinary Form:
-Readings in the vernacular at the ambo facing the people
-Expanded lectionary with so much more Old Testament, and readings assigned to weekdays (particularly in Advent, Christmastide and Eastertide; Lent already had them)
-Saying/singing the following parts together as a whole congregation: responses, Confiteor, Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Our Father, and Agnus Dei
-Audible Canon/Eucharistic Prayer

There are also things I prefer about the Extraordinary Form, but that’s not the topic of this thread.