The number of the damned

[Wulfgar]

I have no idea why I am asking anonymous people on the internet this question. Now that I am on break I am less stressed out and more aware of these sorts of things, and this forum seems to be the only place I can go to for answers. But I digress.

I am so upset and paralyzed about the saints who basically almost unanimously declare that most go to hell. Doesn’t that imply predestination? Doesn’t that imply despair, that the fate of the majority of mankind has already been sealed? I mean, come on… it makes me less inclined to do things, but I know this can’t be the right attitude. Why even tell us? Why? Does the fact that few rather than many being saved actually “mean” anything, only that God wins both ways (regardless of number saved)?

Some people say that this idea should make one a saint, and make one more likely to work out their salvation “with fear and trembling”, and therefore be saved. Unfortunately, such statements as these only further leads me to continuously (unconsciously) judge each and every single person I meet: Will they make it to heaven? What are their vices? What sorts of sins have they committed?

I simply don’t understand how a God, who designed such an awe-inspiring universe, who gave His only Son in a heroic, completely selfless act of love - who in His omnipotence works at His fullest capacity to save mankind - would be unable to save the majority of people. Yes I understand the teaching that free will necessitates the existence of hell, but come on… most people go there?

…why would they choose that? What does that mean, that most people are damned? Creation, theologically speaking, is good, but why doesn’t that imply that it was a mistake for God to create? From my understanding, he didn’t have to… so, if this were the case, why?

Oh, and also, if the number of the damned - or, at least, the general proportionality (i.e., many vs. few) - has already been determined, then does that mean that specific people’s eternal destinies have already been determined? If the number is already set in stone… why not the individuals as well?

The idea of living life in so much fear and depression and anxiety… how exactly is that “love”? That it still requires so much effort to get to heaven? Did God mandate that effort? Is there any particular reason why it is difficult, rather than easy?

In summary, I don’t see how the saints’ unanimous declaration of the majority of people being damned helps. It just makes me see more people as ever more sinful. Now, every time I approach someone who seems light-hearted and happy, I cannot help but “judge” (not in the sinful sense, more like “intuition/reaction”) that they are a very bad person on the road to hell. I can already hear the traditionalists responding: Yes, yes, it is true indeed: we are all extremely bad and the majority are going to hell.

If the saints (almost) unanimously declared the majority of persons in hell, then why doesn’t the Church officially declare this? Why doesn’t scripture (clearly) declare it, as it is such a crucial notion? Sure, you can point me to the passages on the narrow way, etc. but why isn’t there an explicit statement that most go to hell? And, by the way, why did Jesus sound slightly apathetic when talking about the narrow way, if he meant that most go to hell? He just… declared it. No mourning, nothing. Why?

Don’t worry about answering each and every one of my random inquiries. I am simply spilling a bunch of thoughts out, and although I have been praying daily, I am just getting back into focusing better now that I am on break for a bit. I am beginning to trust fewer and fewer people… but I have no idea why I am trusting anonymous persons on the internet over real, flesh-and-blood people. I don’t know why my gut instinct is that the internet people are more trustworthy than the ones I actually speak with.

One last thought: if the traditionalists are right - that most go to hell - and taking into account the fact that traditionalists comprise a small portion of the Catholic Church (correct me if I’m wrong), then you cannot use the argument in defense of Catholicism that it has the most adherents (at least, I personally don’t find it compelling or consistent). Stay consistent, please, if the traditionalists are “right” and everyone else is “wrong”.

 

[st_antony]

i dont know f this verse answers you maybe partly…look at the gospel of Matthew on chapter 7:13-14.i think it implies that many will b damned

 

[Wulfgar]

i dont know f this verse answers you maybe partly…look at the gospel of Matthew on chapter 7:13-14.i think it implies that many will b damned

Yes, I briefly mentioned that already. Unfortunately you are simply taking the narrow way to automatically mean that most are damned, which I have already addressed. I do hope you read my entire post; I already made references to this (including what seems at face value to be - and what I hope isn’t - Jesus’ apathy in making the statement).

 

[jesus4ever]

Do you really think God would create us if most of us was going to hell. If that was the case then i think he wouldn’t of bothered.

Hell wasn’t created for us who are the chrilden of God but it was made for the devil.

God is all love and he never stops calling us back but if we continue to ignore him for the rest of our lives then we have no one but ourselves to blame. God even Gives us moment before we die to just say sorry and ask for forgiveness.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I am so upset and paralyzed about the saints who basically almost unanimously declare that most go to hell.

Woah, what Saints are these??? Are these Catholic Saints??? Do most Saints actually teach this? Do ANY Saints actually teach this? I have read the writings of one or two (hundred) Saints, and I have never seen this. If anything, Saints teach the opposite. St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross taught that we can achieve spiritual PERFECTION while on earth (meaning complete aversion to all sin), and St. Therese of Lisieux taught that we can achieve such perfection - not only by living heroic lives - but in the ordinary workaday lives of ordinary laypeople (she called this her “little way”). All three Saints have been designated Doctors (ie, teachers) of the Church specifically because of these teachings.

Are there any Doctors of the Church that ever taught that most people go to hell? Or Saints? Or Popes? Or respected theologians? I think you seriously misunderstand Catholic doctrine and tradition. The Church, and Her Popes, Doctors, and Saints have never taught such an idea. It would almost be heresy.

The Catholic Church has always maintained that Salvation is very easy. It requires only a bit of water and a few words. It is called Christian Baptism. The Church actually teaches that the minister of Baptism does not even need to be Catholic (or even Christian), provided the minister intends to do what the Church does in Baptism (even if the minister has no idea what that is). The barrier to Christian Baptism is very, very low.

Furthermore, the Church teaches that salvation is possible apart from Baptism (through invincible ignorance), although the Church does not know how that works (it has not been revealed).

Baptism places us into a state of Grace. It is possible for us to remove ourselves from this state through mortal sin.

Theologians have debated for centuries as to whether it is easy or hard for a Christian of good will to commit a mortal sin. Such an act requires full, complete, and perfect knowledge and consent. Most theologians regard mortal sin as difficult for a person of good will (this would not include gangster bosses, etc, who are not people of good will). Theft might be mortally sinful (for a gangster boss), but the consent might be diminished if a person stole a loaf of bread from the windowsill of a wealthy house in order to feed his starving sister and niece. Need, addiction, compulsion, etc can diminish our consent and reduce our culpability for the sin (and any reduction whatsoever in culpability means that the sin cannot be mortal).

The Church has not taught whether it is easy or difficult for a person of good will to fall into mortal sin. But it does not really matter, because - either way - there is a 100% assured way to return us to our original state of Baptismal grace. It is called Confession. It takes about five minutes, usually on a Saturday afternoon (or by appointment). Check your Parish bulletin or ask your priest for particulars.

The Church teaches that salvation is easy. Where do you come of the opinion that the Saints of the Church teach that salvation is unlikely?

 

[TomD123]

I am so upset and paralyzed about the saints who basically almost unanimously declare that most go to hell. Doesn’t that imply predestination? No, why would it?
Doesn’t that imply despair, that the fate of the majority of mankind has already been sealed? **St. Alphonsus discusses this specifically. He says it does not imply despair because the only way one goes to hell is through deliberate personal choice and that God is infinite mercy who desires all to be saved. So just because most people chose damnation doesn’t mean God has determined it or we should despair ourselves. **

I mean, come on… it makes me less inclined to do things, but I know this can’t be the right attitude. Why even tell us? Why? Does the fact that few rather than many being saved actually “mean” anything, only that God wins both ways (regardless of number saved)? I think God wins both ways. I also think the number of the saved depends largely on what happens to unbaptized infants who die early. When the Saints are talking about most being damned often they specifically state “adults.” I’d also like to add that it is almost certain that most rational creatures i.e. Angels and Men combined are saved. If that adds anything to the discussion.

Some people say that this idea should make one a saint, and make one more likely to work out their salvation “with fear and trembling”, and therefore be saved. I think it should inspire us to remember heaven isn’t just where we go when we die. Its where we go when we die IF we were true and sincere Christians

Unfortunately, such statements as these only further leads me to continuously (unconsciously) judge each and every single person I meet: Will they make it to heaven? What are their vices? What sorts of sins have they committed? **I understand this exactly because I struggle with this. Although, this could happen really if we reverse it and say most are saved. We might be inclined to ask "What good have THEY done to be saved? How can THEY be saved AND me be saved when it is obvious I am more holy? etc. etc. I think people could be prone to judge in any situation,and I struggle with judging so I probably am not the best to give advice but personally I think the best thing to do is just remember-

No matter what vices people struggle with, everyone has a story. People were brought up with different impressions of the Church, different introductions to prayer/sacraments, etc. We do not know their hearts, only God does. It often happens that those who seem further away from Christ are actually closer, because God knows the heart and we only see external signs. If you catch yourself judging say a prayer “God have Mercy on me a sinner.”**

I simply don’t understand how a God, who designed such an awe-inspiring universe, who gave His only Son in a heroic, completely selfless act of love - who in His omnipotence works at His fullest capacity to save mankind - would be unable to save the majority of people. Yes I understand the teaching that free will necessitates the existence of hell, but come on… most people go there? Original sin is strong, the world has become corrupt, people don’t want God. If most people don’t want Him despite His efforts, most will be damned. But It is important to remember this is a big IF. Most are damned IF and ONLY IF most do not want God. Because God is infinte mercy and love. I suggest reading what St. Faustina wrote in her diary about God and heaven and hell. It is inspiring. It upholds the reality of hell in a way that still inspires us to remember God’s mercy

…why would they choose that? What does that mean, that most people are damned? Creation, theologically speaking, is good, but why doesn’t that imply that it was a mistake for God to create? From my understanding, he didn’t have to… so, if this were the case, why? Because God should not withhold creating (and eternal happiness) from some because others chose to abuse free will. Take an example, should God chose to not have given life to Mary and the Saints because of those who are blasphemous, impure, unholy, greedy, etc.? Should Mary and the Saints not have heaven because of the others?

Oh, and also, if the number of the damned - or, at least, the general proportionality (i.e., many vs. few) - has already been determined, then does that mean that specific people’s eternal destinies have already been determined? If the number is already set in stone… why not the individuals as well? **Our destines are determined by ourselves. We determine where we go. Still, God does know where will we end up as he stands outside of time. **
The Church doesn’t declare it because the Saints are not part of revelation. Scripture and Tradition are. Scripture does not teach most go to hell. As you said the answer should inspire us to work hard but gives us no definitve conclusions

Lastly I’ll add, trust in God’s mercy. We really don’t know where most go. I think its best to keep a healthy fear but also a healthy remeberence of God’s great love. Whatever happens, it is good because God’s mercy will work all things out

I’ll do my best to respond to each of these. My comments are in bold, in your quote.