The Office of the Papacy in Scripture

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Possibility?

Your attempts at proseltyzing are weak…
More on proseltyzing… My position is that everyone in this discussion should remain in the Catholic church. Change has occurred in the past and will occur in the future, and change for the better occurs when people have all the information they need to make right decisions. Don’t leave the Catholic church!
 
Your “authority”, Daniel, says that it is not the authority.

See 1 Tim 3:15.
v.15 “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

This also does not say the church is the authority but rather that which upholds the truth if it is the church of God. If it does not uphold the truth, it is not the church of God.
 
v.15 “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

This also does not say the church is the authority but rather that which upholds the truth if it is the church of God. If it does not uphold the truth, it is not the church of God.
I think that’s a bit of eisegesis, Daniel.

You cannot argue with the fact that Scripture itself cannot be an authority–else how can you account for the 40,000 sects that claim Scripture as their authority yet cannot agree on doctrine?

We all can agree on what Scripture says, but we cannot agree on the “in other words” part; that is, we can’t agree on what Scripture means. That’s where the Church, the pillar and foundation of Truth, comes in!
 
This also does not say the church is the authority but rather that which upholds the truth if it is the church of God. If it does not uphold the truth, it is not the church of God.
When decisions needed made who had the authority to made a decision? Read the deliberations in Acts 13: 15: ---- did those gathered opine that their decision had to be based upon scripture alone? Read St. Peter’s opinion. Was it based on scripture alone? NO - the Church was the authority that made the decisions that needed made. Scripture alone wasn’t sufficient to make the conclusion.

MonFrere
 
Excuse me, but Peter was an Apostle, and the office of Apostle is mentioned. The fact that the leader of the Apostles, Peter, went to Rome and that the Bishop of Rome was considered by all to by the head of the Church is a historical fact.

Since the scriptures clearly depict Peter as the leader of the Apostles in the eyes of Jesus, the Jews, and an angel, I think your statement is simply built on a false premise.
No one denies Peter is frequently mentioned but never as THE leader or THE head or THE prince of anything, but he is referred to clearly as “AN apostle to the Jews.” And of course Christ refers to Peter WITH his confession as “this rock.”

Paul is “THE apostle to the Gentiles.”
Romans 11:13
“I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry.”
 
Then by all means show the scriptures that give you, or any other private individual, authority from their private interpretation of scriptures.

While the Bible is the inerrant, inspired Word of God, man’s private interpretation of those scriptures are not inerrant…
[SIGN]The word of God is known by the Spirit that speaks to the heart.[/SIGN]
John 16:8 “When **he (Spirit) comes, he will convict the world of guilt **in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment.”

Luke 8:11"… The seed is the word of God. …15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."

Ephesians 6:17 “Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”

Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
 
Hmmm, Danny I see you are taking the Landmarker Baptists idea of a Baptist Succesion through history and reinterpretting it.

Got to admit, that is a new one for a churchachrister.
No, it is not necessary to take such a view but the history is there nonetheless. Death cannot prevail against the church since all faithful will participate in the resurrection of life. The word of God will never pass away.

1 Peter 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For, “All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25but **the word of the Lord stands forever.” And **this is the word that was preached to you.
 
[SIGN]The word of God is known by the Spirit that speaks to the heart.[/SIGN]
John 16:8 “When **he (Spirit) comes, he will convict the world of guilt **in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment.”

Luke 8:11"… The seed is the word of God. …15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."

Ephesians 6:17 “Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”

Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
To which the Catholic responds with an enthusiastic “AMEN!”

The question, Daniel, is regarding interpretation.

Who is correct when a Christian “armed with the helmet of salvation” reads Scripture and concludes, “only 144,000 souls will go to heaven.” Do you believe this, Daniel?

What about a Christian, inspired by the Spirit, who reads Scripture and concludes that we must celebrate the Lord’s Day on Saturday. Do you believe this, Daniel?

What about a Christian, armed by the sword of the Spirit, who reads Scripture and concludes that we didn’t really go to the moon because “it’s not in the Bible”? Do you believe this, Daniel?

The 40,000 sects, each vehemently defending their own interpretation of Scripture, cannot all be correct. 🤷
 
Hi Daniel–

Well lets get a definition of the word “papacy” shall we? Papacy comes from the word “pope” which comes from the Greek word meaning “poppa” which means father. A father is head of the house. So in a nutshell…

We are talking about “head of the house”. The pope is a bishop that is head of the church on earth.

The word “father” and “bishop” can be found in scripture but remember what John said about not everything being written in scripture? There’s also stuff that was handed down by word of mouth a.k.a preaching and teaching a.k.a tradition after all how would we have gotten anything if it wasn’t handed down?

So you need to see in the Bible where it says succession? But is your heart open? Or have you already convinced yourself that your right and “the Catholic Church” is wrong?

Acts 1

15At this time** Peter **stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said,

16"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry."

18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20"For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,
AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT’;
and,
** ‘LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE**.’

21"Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us–

**22beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us–one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." **

23So they put forward two men, **Joseph called Barsabbas **(who was also called Justus), and Matthias.

24And **they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen **

25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

26And **they drew lots **for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and **he was added to the eleven apostles. **

this is apostolic succession. But I’m sure you will explain it away.
The replacement (not succession) of Judas was uniquely prophecied and the replacement had unrepeatable qualifications; therefore, nothing whatever to do with apostolic succession.
 
Numbers 27:18-20 (New American Standard Bible)

18So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;

19and have him stand before Eleazar the priest and before all the congregation, and commission him in their sight.

20"You shall put some of your authority on him, in order that all the congregation of the sons of Israel may obey him.

Will you also explain this away?
Certainly the apostles laid hands to bestow gifts of the Holy Spirit as the Spirit determined. And laying of hands was possibly used to identify those who met qualifications of bishops as determined by the Spirit.
 
We can put this stupid argument to bed FOREVER.

Peter, James and the Council of Jerusalem

Many non-Catholics claim that Peter could not have been the head of the earthly Church or “pope” because they believe that it was James, not Peter, who gave the final decision concerning circumcision of the Gentiles at the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15. This position indicates a complete misunderstanding of the dynamics of the council. Mark Bonocore, a noted Catholic apologist, addressed this misunderstanding in his debate with Jason Engwer in 1999.

Regarding the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, I pointed out in my [opening statement] how Peter gives the definitive teachings and how, after he speaks, all debate comes to an end. However, Engwer rejects this, citing the amendments given by James, and says how James is the only one to render “judgment.” Well, first of all, it must be noted that James bases his remarks on Peter’s teaching:
“Brothers, listen to me. Symeon (i.e., Peter) has described how …” (Acts 15:13-14).

Secondly, look at what James actually says in relation to his “judgment”:

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles” (Acts 15:19).

Well, who is this “we”? Who was “troubling the Gentiles”? Certainly not Peter (Acts 10:44-49, 11:1-18, 15:7-10). Certainly not Paul or Barnabas. So, who? Acts 15:1 tells us:

“Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised …, you cannot be saved.”

It was the Jewish faction under James (bishop of Jerusalem) that was troubling the Gentiles (Acts 15:5, Gal 2:12). Thus, James is speaking for them, not for the whole council. Indeed, that’s why his remarks are recorded at all—to show that the leader of the Jewish faction subscribed to the decisions of the council, and so silence the Judaizers who Paul will encounter later (Titus 1:10-11).*
To Bonocore’s reference from Titus, I would add this passage from Paul’s Letter to the Galatians:

Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

Clearly, James headed up the group who thought that Gentiles must become Jews through circumcision in order to become Christians. However, after hearing Peter’s doctrinal pronouncement, he accepted Peter’s teaching and added his own pastoral comments for the benefit of the pro-circumcision group present and for those who might doubt that the leader of the “Judaizers” had really accepted the decision of the full ecumenical council.

*Taken from: Mark Bonocore v. Jason Engwer: Was the Papacy Established by Christ?
bringyou.to/apologetics/debate13.htm
I think your argument holds merit, but my point stands and it is significant. Here we have a council of the whole church. All can agree that Peter speaks, Paul speaks, and James closes with “my judgment.” In a setting where the church is gathered to decide an issue that threatens to divide the entire church, there is not a single mention or reference ot Peter as the HEAD or leader or prince of the church or by any other title whatsoever. Rather we know from other passages that Peter was an apostle to the Jews and first to preach to the Gentiles, and Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

If Peter was the Vicar and voice of Christ on earth, he would have been identified as such at this most important council of the whole church.
 
Correct. James was head of the Church in Jerusalem, John in Ephesus, but Peter went to Smyrna, Rome, then Antioch during the banishment of the Jews from Rome, and then later back to Rome where he was martyred. Moreover, while Peter founded a led local churches just as Paul did, his role as head of the universal Church was, well, universal.

Is this in scripture? Part of it is. The rest is corroborated by the letters and histories of the Church written by eyewitnesses. Just because something isn’t inspired doesn’t mean you can’t trust that it is true, Daniel.
Although scripture does say “certain men came form James” this does not establish that James was THE leader of the Jerusalem church. Paul identifes three reputed to be pillars: James, Cephas, and John. There was NO singular leader of the church other than Christ alone.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by **Daniel Keeran **
The replacement (not succession) of Judas was uniquely prophecied and the replacement had unrepeatable qualifications; therefore, nothing whatever to do with apostolic succession.
Where was this prophesied?
Acts, ch.1
The Prophecy of Judas’ Vacancy

v. 20…it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, ‘May another take his place of leadership.’

The Unrepeatable Qualifications
v. 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."
 
To which the Catholic responds with an enthusiastic “AMEN!”

The question, Daniel, is regarding interpretation.
Who is correct when a Christian “armed with the helmet of salvation” reads Scripture and concludes, “only 144,000 souls will go to heaven.” Do you believe this, Daniel?
The number 144,000 is a symbol of the full number of saved. Revelation is full of symbols and figures.
What about a Christian, inspired by the Spirit, who reads Scripture and concludes that we must celebrate the Lord’s Day on Saturday. Do you believe this, Daniel?
One must properly handle the word of truth that says “judge no man in respect of…the sabbath.”
What about a Christian, armed by the sword of the Spirit, who reads Scripture and concludes that we didn’t really go to the moon because “it’s not in the Bible”? Do you believe this, Daniel?
Scipture is not a book of science but of salvation.
 
v.15 “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

This also does not say the church is the authority but rather that which upholds the truth if it is the church of God. If it does not uphold the truth, it is not the church of God.
To think that the Church lost it’s authority due to sinful or corrupt men is to doubt Christ’s promise that even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and His promise to be with us until the consummation of the world. Sinful or corrupt men are surely a lot less than the gates of hell. Until the consummation of the world, includes all time, from the time it was spoken until the consummation of the world, without a gap in between.

If you’re trying to imply the Catholic Church is non-scriptural, that is a Church that does not follow scriptures and uphold truth, then you are misinformed.

Christ did not skip a lot of generations of truth to grant truth to someone 1900 years later. As I said, that makes Christ wrong in His assertions and promises.
 
[SIGN]The word of God is known by the Spirit that speaks to the heart.[/SIGN]
John 16:8 “When **he (Spirit) comes, he will convict the world of guilt **in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment.”

Luke 8:11"… The seed is the word of God. …15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."

Ephesians 6:17 “Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”

Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
See, you are using verses that use the term “word” as if it only applies to the written word, because you believe in that application it supports your view. Christ never wrote anything or ordered anything scribed. Those verse you list can just as easily apply to the spoken word.

**Rom 10:17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ. **

2Th 2:15 (2:14) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

Scriptures clearly tell us what the word of God is, and you failed to list it above most probably because there is no way to reference it as a written word.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

To summarize, you have provided no scriptures that show YOU have an authority to tell others they are wrong in their interpretation. If the scriptures you did provide can be taken as you present them, then what’s to prevent me from saying that’s where my authority comes from to tell you that you are wrong? That’s the dangers of sola scriptura and private interpretation. It is a man-made tradition that is NOT supported by scriptures. It was man-made for some to set themselves up as the “authority”, which really has appearances of a self serving purpose and not the purpose of serving Him.

As for fruits, look at the history of the Catholic Church. It defined the canon of the New Testament, and preserved that written word of God for 1500 years, or else the Protestants would not have it. Look at the fruits of growth, through the Catholic Church. It is worldwide and half the Christians in the world are Catholic.

Martin Luther, leader of the Protestant reformation, recognized the Catholic Church and it’s preservation of scriptures.
“We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists (Catholics)–that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."
We know the, short, history of the Church of Christ, which is a Church that split from another Church, that split from another Church, that split from another Church, until it’s roots leads you back to the Catholic Church. You may not want to believe that, but that’s for you to prove otherwise.
 
Why should the papacy have to be mentioned in scripture? First of all, you admit it is not in scripture. Second, if the office that defines all Christian truth and doctrine is not from the beginning of the church, it comes too late in time.
I admit no such thing. Here are my questions again, which you ducked.

2 questions.
  1. Which Scripture? Which version, edition of the Bible, and please give a good reason why.
  2. Why should the office of the papacy have to be mentioned in scripture?
I think your argument holds merit, but my point stands and it is significant. Here we have a council of the whole church. All can agree that Peter speaks, Paul speaks, and James closes with “my judgment.” In a setting where the church is gathered to decide an issue that threatens to divide the entire church, there is not a single mention or reference ot Peter as the HEAD or leader or prince of the church or by any other title whatsoever. Rather we know from other passages that Peter was an apostle to the Jews and first to preach to the Gentiles, and Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

If Peter was the Vicar and voice of Christ on earth, he would have been identified as such at this most important council of the whole church.
They probably didn’t consider it necessary after Jesus proclaimed it to Peter and the Apostles.
 
The number 144,000 is a symbol of the full number of saved. Revelation is full of symbols and figures.

One must properly handle the word of truth that says “judge no man in respect of…the sabbath.”

Scipture is not a book of science but of salvation.
Daniel, I did not give those Scripture verses so that you could refute them. I don’t need your exegesis, as my Church has done that already.

I gave those examples so that you could see that Scripture alone leads to all sorts of weird interpretations, splinter groups, fringe churches with questionable doctrines…

How do you counter their right to interpret Scripture for themselves and come up with their own man-made, fallible doctrines? You have no authority to tell them that their sola Scriptura tradition/interpretation is wrong. However, we as Catholics do!
 
IIf Peter was the Vicar and voice of Christ on earth, he would have been identified as such at this most important council of the whole church.
Based on your logic, I ask you: if Scripture is the final and sole authority why does it not identify itself with this most important function?

Why did Jesus write down not a single word nor command any of his apostles to write down His teachings?
 
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