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Daniel_Keeran
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Because there were no monarchial bishops at this period.
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Daniel_Keeran
Guest
beats me!
We all agree except for the one who said John was appointed by Peter.
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Daniel_Keeran
Guest
Yes a head IS a necessity. And the only singular shepherd or leader or head of the church on earth, identified in scripture is Christ alone. No NT writer says otherwise.Daniel, you’re still speculating, or assuming, without a source to state specifically your assumptions. Isn’t this very similar to what you say about Catholics believing in the primacy of Peter.
It also appears you are juding Ignatius…
A real man-made invention is sola scriptura and private interpretation of scriptures.
Isn’t funny how God has allowed the Papacy to exist for hundreds and hundreds of years, and yet no one Protestant Church has survived as a whole without some sort of schism?
Just as you say there is no reference, I still say you are speculating and assuming without something to support what you say. Where is the specific scriptures stating there will be no one to head the Church Christ built? It’s not there.
Ephesians 1:10
to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
Ephesians 4:15
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Colossians 2:10
and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
Colossians 2:19
He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
1 Peter 5:4
And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
1 Peter 2 24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
If Peter knew he was appointed to be the earthly Shepherd of the church, he could have found humble ways to state this just as he stated: “God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message” (Acts 15:7).
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PRmerger
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What about I Cor. 12:21: “… the head cannot say to the feet, I have no need of you…”.
This can’t be a reference to Christ as He is in need of no one.
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utunumsint
Guest
How you make this inference is really beyong me. You seem to equate monarchical bishops with a one city one bishop idea. In some cases this is actually the situation, but in other cases, it is far from practical. Corinth and Rome were large cities, and so multiple bishops would certainly be necessary. This does not imply that there was no hierarchical divisions among these clergy members.
As I tried to show in my previous posts, there were certainly bishops set over large areas and over several presbyters/bishops, even in the NT, as exemplified by Titus 1:5.
But this is really besides the point. You were claiming, and I was responding to, your allegation that the Corinthian college of presbyter/bishops were being overwhelmed by a singular Diotrephy like ruler. And there is no evidence that this was the case, unless you baited me with this to try and get me to conceed that there was terms bishop and presbyter were still fluid at the time. If this is the case, then you are simply playing games.
God bless,
Ut
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utunumsint
Guest
It is clear that there was development in various ministries from the beginning of the church.
1-The apostles invented the ministry of the diaconate (or at least an early form of it).
2-There were many prophets and teachers mentioned in the early church, but by the time of Diadach, these ministries were comming into disrepute. Diadach specifies many restrictions and limitations on travelling prophets ment to discourage and limite fraudsters, and leaches.
3-The term episcopos was used in more of a descriptive way in the beginning, representing the idea of guardianship and oversite. 1st Peter calls Christ the Shepherd and guardian (literally episcopos) of our soul. This name clearly began to take on a separate ministerial meaning within the NT time period, and continued to develop through the days of Clement to Ignatius.
4-The apostles themselves associated certain men into their work and authority, providing a clear model for the overarching authority of the office of bishop represented by Ignatius in his letters. Men like Timoty, Titus, Silvanus, and Apollos, are the prototypical model of the Ignatian Bishop. In this succession, future generations felt that they were insured access to the deposit of faith left by the apostles, and entrusted to the care of their successors.
The end goal of this succession is communion in the true Gospel of Christ and in the teaching of the Apostles.
Try reading Pope Benedict’s book, “The Apostles”. He gives a wonderful summary of the transition from the apostles to their successors and a correct understahnding of what Catholics mean by tradition.
God bless,
Ut
1-The apostles invented the ministry of the diaconate (or at least an early form of it).
2-There were many prophets and teachers mentioned in the early church, but by the time of Diadach, these ministries were comming into disrepute. Diadach specifies many restrictions and limitations on travelling prophets ment to discourage and limite fraudsters, and leaches.
3-The term episcopos was used in more of a descriptive way in the beginning, representing the idea of guardianship and oversite. 1st Peter calls Christ the Shepherd and guardian (literally episcopos) of our soul. This name clearly began to take on a separate ministerial meaning within the NT time period, and continued to develop through the days of Clement to Ignatius.
4-The apostles themselves associated certain men into their work and authority, providing a clear model for the overarching authority of the office of bishop represented by Ignatius in his letters. Men like Timoty, Titus, Silvanus, and Apollos, are the prototypical model of the Ignatian Bishop. In this succession, future generations felt that they were insured access to the deposit of faith left by the apostles, and entrusted to the care of their successors.
The end goal of this succession is communion in the true Gospel of Christ and in the teaching of the Apostles.
Try reading Pope Benedict’s book, “The Apostles”. He gives a wonderful summary of the transition from the apostles to their successors and a correct understahnding of what Catholics mean by tradition.
God bless,
Ut
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Prodigal_Son1
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Am I the only one that can see the irony of the post I’ve quoted above?
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PRmerger
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**Originally Posted by Daniel Keeran **
If Peter knew he was appointed to be the earthly Shepherd of the church, he could have found humble ways to state this just as he stated: “God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message” (Acts 15:7).
Whatever did you mean by posting that, Daniel? It seems to provide exactly the example you’re requesting…
If Peter knew he was appointed to be the earthly Shepherd of the church, he could have found humble ways to state this just as he stated: “God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message” (Acts 15:7).
You’re right, Prodigal!Am I the only one that can see the irony of the post I’ve quoted above?
Whatever did you mean by posting that, Daniel? It seems to provide exactly the example you’re requesting…
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Daniel_Keeran
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In this analogy of the human body, Christ is not identified as the head. Rather, Paul points out that all body parts need each other and possess great value just as every Christian has great value regardless of his/her gift.
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PRmerger
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Ah. So it contradicts your earlier post in which you said:
Who is the head that needs others in this analogy of the human body?
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Daniel_Keeran
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**God making choice of Peter for Gentiles to hear the message, is not the same as saying: “God made a choice among you that I should be made head of the church (chief shepherd, or similar phrase).” **Originally Posted by Daniel Keeran
If Peter knew he was appointed to be the earthly Shepherd of the church, he could have found humble ways to state this just as he stated: “God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message” (Acts 15:7).
Whatever did you mean by posting that, Daniel? It seems to provide exactly the example you’re requesting…
The complete absence of any such reference to Peter or by Peter proves beyond doubt that the papacy did not begin with Peter but in the following development:
- the high regard for the imperial city and church in Rome founded by Paul and possibly Peter,
- followed by the ECF references to successions of singular bishops,
- followed by exercise of power by this bishop in Rome in Victor 190 AD,
- followed the development of a Petrine legend resulting in the spurious Clementine Homilies in 220 AD,
- followed by the claims of Stephen in 250 AD,
- followed by the claims of Damasus in 380 AD and the legal support of the Emperor (325 AD and 380 AD).
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Daniel_Keeran
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Timothy and Titus were spiritually-gifted evangelists, who planted churches in different regions, but there is not infication the presbyter/bishops they appointed were accountable to them. Timothy and Titus were not proto-singular bishops but rather evangelists as Paul says to Timothy: “Do the work of an evangelist…”
Acts 21:8
Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven.
Ephesians 4:11
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
2 Timothy 4:5
But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
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Daniel_Keeran
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The challenge to biblical leadership of presbyter/bishops was underway in Rome and in Corinth in the late first century. Ignatius appears to have been an advocate of such a challenge, especially when we see Polycarp as one of many presbyters leading the church in Smyrna, yet Ignatius refers to him as the singular bishop of Smyrna. Ignatius also overstates his own office as bishop of Syria which indicates him as the founder of the hierarchical system.
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utunumsint
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Evangelization is the duty of us all. It was not a specific office. But Titus has this added mandate “He also tells Titus in 2:15 “Say these things. Exhort and correct with all authority. Let no one look down on you.””
Sounds to me that he did have authority, and that the presbyter/bishops were accountable to him.
God bless,
Ut
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Prodigal_Son1
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Heb 13:7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,
**Heb 13:17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
(IGNT+) πειθεσθεG3982 [G5732] OBEY τοιςG3588 ηγουμενοιςG2233 [G5740] υμωνG5216 YOUR LEADERS, καιG2532 AND υπεικετεG5226 [G5720] BE SUBMISSIVE : αυτοιG846 γαρG1063 FOR THEY αγρυπνουσινG69 [G5719] WATCH υπερG5228 FOR τωνG3588 ψυχωνG5590 υμωνG5216 YOUR SOULS, ωςG5613 AS λογονG3056 ACCOUNT αποδωσοντεςG591 [G5694] ABOUT TO RENDER; ιναG2443 THAT μεταG3326 WITH χαραςG5479 JOY τουτοG5124 THIS ποιωσινG4160 [G5725] THEY MAY DO, καιG2532 AND μηG3361 NOT στεναζοντεςG4727 [G5723] GROANING αλυσιτελεςG255 γαρG1063 FOR UNPROFITABLE υμινG5213 FOR YOU " WOULD BE " τουτοG5124 THIS. **
G5216
ὑμῶν
humōn
hoo-mone’
Genitive case of G5210; of (from or concerning) you: - ye, you, your (own, -selves).
G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
hayg-eh’-om-ahee
Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.
Heb 13:24 Salute all your prelates and all the saints. The brethren from Italy salute you.
Obey your leaders and be subject to them. Salute all your leaders…the brethren from Italy salute you.
Paul had no trouble recognizing leaders, others were to be subject too…from Italy.
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utunumsint
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This is baseless. It really is.
The Biblical basis for leadership in the early church included centralized authority figures found in the persons of the apostles and the collaborators in the works of the apostles.
The church you believe in is headless (in an earthly sense). That is why every single church runs in a different doctrinal direction.
God bless,
Ut
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Prodigal_Son1
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You are correct. Scriptures tell us clearly, the Church was meant to be ONE.
**Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.
Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.**
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Prodigal_Son1
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Daniel, it appears you’re saying we cannot trust the what St. Ignatius said, because he was proud and wanted to be first. Yet, you find we cannot believe Peter was leader because he didn’t boast his position. Your statements on these two men contradict each other, in my opinion.
I mean no offense, but it really seems you’re twisting everything, writings from the early Church fathers and scriptures, to fit your theology, or at the very least your view of this particular subject.
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paul_c
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Daniel of course you are correct. This statement from Peter makes him the leader of the Apostles to the Gentiles but not the Jews… This quote from Paul in Galations 2: 7:8:
On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter to the circumcised, for the one who worked in Peter for an apostolate to the circumcised worked also in me for the Gentiles,
Demonstrates that Peter was also the leader of the Jews . So we have validation scripturally that Peter is the leader of the Apostles for both jew and non-Jew, (i.e. everyone.
Since when does the absence of data prove that the inverse is true beyond a doubt? This is a ridiculous statement. The absence of data only proves that you have no data. In this particular case, as described above. there is actually data that disproves your theory.
And I see you have amended your timeline since the last time, so obbviously you are recognizing some of the errors we are pointing out. That speaks well of you. But you are still neglecting Clement, which moves your timeline of documented papal leadership from Rome up into the 1st century.
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Daniel_Keeran
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Titus had a spiritual gift; he is called an “evangelist” like Philip, which was one of the gifts Christ gave to men mentioned in Ephesians 4. Titus was not a singular bishop nor a prototype of such. He DID have authority as an evangelist to speak God’s word and tell people how to live a holy life, giving up sin, how one qualifies to be a bishop or deacon, etc.
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