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Daniel_Keeran
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I previously answered but you do not agree. This thread is on papacy in scripture.If he has, I have missed it.
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Daniel_Keeran
Guest
The book of Hebrews writes in detail about the cessation of the sacrifical system and of the old covenant. E.g. Hebrews 8.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Yes, I know what this thread is, but you seem to assert our interpretation is incorrect so it’s a fair question to ask where you get the authority to determine what is correct and what is incorrect.
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paul_c
Guest
Daniel,
the problem we are having is that all of your arguments have been rehashed probably a dozen times over the course of the last few months and over several threads.
You have one central point which everything is built around. You beleive that if Peter was truly the Pope, Jesus would have said something like, “Peter, you are the Pope , the leader of the church.” Nothing else will do for you because you so want to believe that there is no pope and that there is no Catholic Church.
So Jesus, speaking in another language , in another culture, 2000 years ago didn’t quite use the phraseology that you want.
Instead of saying “Peter, you are the Pope.” he said, "Peter you are the rock on which I will build my church. "
And instead of saying , " You are the leader of the church", he said, "I give you the keys to the kingdom. whatever you lose on earth will be losed on heaven, whatever you bind on earth, you will bind in heaven. "
Why did he speak like this, instead of in plain English. Well he did tell us that it was so some would look but not see, hear but not understand, didn’t he.
Look, God willing, someday you will see the light. But maybe God will not be willing for a while. You see, . You provide a great foil for us. You allow us to refine our arguments and convince the lurkers of the truths of Catholicism. That is valuable…
the problem we are having is that all of your arguments have been rehashed probably a dozen times over the course of the last few months and over several threads.
You have one central point which everything is built around. You beleive that if Peter was truly the Pope, Jesus would have said something like, “Peter, you are the Pope , the leader of the church.” Nothing else will do for you because you so want to believe that there is no pope and that there is no Catholic Church.
So Jesus, speaking in another language , in another culture, 2000 years ago didn’t quite use the phraseology that you want.
Instead of saying “Peter, you are the Pope.” he said, "Peter you are the rock on which I will build my church. "
And instead of saying , " You are the leader of the church", he said, "I give you the keys to the kingdom. whatever you lose on earth will be losed on heaven, whatever you bind on earth, you will bind in heaven. "
Why did he speak like this, instead of in plain English. Well he did tell us that it was so some would look but not see, hear but not understand, didn’t he.
Look, God willing, someday you will see the light. But maybe God will not be willing for a while. You see, . You provide a great foil for us. You allow us to refine our arguments and convince the lurkers of the truths of Catholicism. That is valuable…
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Hebrews 8 quotes Jeremiah 31.
Heb 8:8 For, finding fault with them, he saith: Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect, unto the house of Israel and unto the house of Juda, a new testament:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the testament which I made to their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind: and in their heart will I write them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord. For all shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
Heb 8:12 Because I will be merciful to their iniquities: and their sins I will remember no more.
Jer 31:31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
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Daniel_Keeran
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Acts 15 provides no reference to Peter as head of the church, only that God chose by his mouth to first preach to Gentiles.
No appointed PM in scripture or at least Peter and Paul did not know it.
Theology can be based on what IS written. No singular bishop claims to be head of the whole church before Damasus.
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paul_c
Guest
Here is Hebrews 8 in its entirety:
Chapter 8
1 The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
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a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up.
3
Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus the necessity for this one also to have something to offer.
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If then he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are those who offer gifts according to the law.
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They worship in a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary, as Moses was warned when he was about to erect the tabernacle. For he says, “See that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
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Now he has obtained so much more excellent a ministry as he is mediator of a better covenant, enacted on better promises.
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For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one.
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But he finds fault with them and says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
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It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they did not stand by my covenant and I ignored them, says the Lord.
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But this is the covenant I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds and I will write them upon their hearts. I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
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And they shall not teach, each one his fellow citizen and kinsman, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know me, from least to greatest.
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For I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sins no more.”
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When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.
He’s talking about the new covenant, but not the destruction of the temple as you said earlier . Right?
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Daniel_Keeran
Guest
from the apostles and prophets
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Daniel, can you not see the contradiction of your statement above and your demand? Since it’s not specifically phrased as you would do, you based a theology on the absence of a specific phrasing. Now can you provide any writings, from scriptures or anyone else, that state there was no leader of Christ’s Church in His absence? Again, you base a theology on something that is not written.
John told us there were many things Christ said and did that were not written in this book, speaking about his writings. Christ’s ministry was only 3 years. The Apostle’s ministry was as many decades. Not everything they did, or spoke is written about. Someone could sit down and easily read the New Testament in less than a week.
You continue to tell us our interpretations of scriptures are incorrect and you remind us that this thread is about Peter’s primacy and scriptures. Yet we cannot discuss how you have the authority to say our interpretation is incorrect. As I said, it is not an honest discussion, in my opinion.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
And where is that written?
You demand we provide scriptures to prove a point to your satisfaction and that’s the kind of answer you provide? There appears to be a double-standard to your requirements of a discussion.
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Daniel_Keeran
Guest
Two points were raised: destruction of temple AND cessation of the sacrificial system. The first is clearly prophesied, and the second clearly taught in Hebrews.
Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
Is Peter the “great priest over the house of God.”
Hebrews 10
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’ " 8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
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Daniel_Keeran
Guest
Ephesians 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
Ephesians 3:5
which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.
Ephesians 4:11
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
2 Peter 3:2
I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
1 John 4:6
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Where is the part about the destruction of the temple?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I’m sorry, but you are reading scriptures out of context and assuming an authority given to the Apostles and men of the Church. Support your view and show us where any individual in the New Testament ordained themself to a position of authority. Which Apostle ordained themself as an example for you to follow and make yourself an Apostle?
If those scriptures were to apply to individuals, what is to prevent us from claiming the same authority and telling you that you are wrong? What you are saying would be chaos.
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Daniel_Keeran
Guest
I am not looking for the word Pope in scripture but a reference to Peter as Head of the church or a similar phrase. The terms Rock and keys are subject to understanding, so we must be able to see the meaning played out in scripture after Matt.16, and the meaning of Peter as Head is what is missing although the term is used but in reference to Christ alone.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Who is Christ’s flock? After Matthew 16, right before His ascension to heaven, who did Christ single out and ask 3 times to feed His sheep?
A prime minister acts in the absence of the reigning ruler. The reigning ruler is still the head, but the prime minister acts on his behalf in his absence. That is Peter’s, or the Pope’s role, to act on Christ’s behalf in His earthly absence.
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Daniel_Keeran
Guest
Yes I understand the catholic view and the passages used to support it. I simply am not convinced by the passages put forth nor by the history, that Jesus intended to appoint Peter as the “supreme pastor.” If this is true, one would see it mentioned at least once in scripture, and the history would have bold clear statements from the successors from Linus onward. It’s just not there. But what we do see is a very slow gradual and growing tendency to look to the church of Rome, then the imperialization of the church in the 4th century with clear statements of papal authority,
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I always find that interesting that Protestants view the Emperor Constantine and his actions as the “imperialization”.
Do you realize what Constantine did? Constantine legalized Christianity and returned property to them. Prior to that time period, Christianity was illegal, under penalty of death. Christians were martyred up until that time. Once Christianity was legalized, Constantine eventually made it the national religion, which began a connection between Church and state.
Daniel, you still haven’t produced any writings, from any source, that deny there was a leader of Christ’s Church. You simply reject our interpretation of many scriptures that we believe show the primacy of Peter. It appears, as you accuse Catholics, you have a theology based on the absence of something specifically stated. Show us something that indicates a rejection of one leader over the early Church, if you want to validate your view. Show us where anyone ordained themself into a position of making eccumenical decisions in the Church. Under your view, if it’s not there, it can’t be trusted to be truth.
I would even think it’s safe to guess that whatever Church you belong too, has a “supreme” leader by some title, even if it’s a single little Church, there’s a pastor leading the flock of that Church. I see irony in your argument, myself.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Prophesied ahead of time in one verse. Not quite what we’re looking for, is it? Nice try, though.
Hmmm…Paul martyred around 65 AD…temple destroyed in 70 AD. Yet Paul wrote about the destruction of the Temple?
Could you maybe share some verses for us ignorant Catholics?Or is this kinda like Tertullian following the “fully biblical” teachings of the Apostles 150 years before there was a Bible?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Oh, Dan!
This is so exciting. Please point us all to the thread and post # where you showed that the Bible teaches sola scriptura. Or simply cut and paste your answer.
Once we have been shown that we are obligated to prove all things from scripture alone, then we will have not choice but to prove the papacy from scripture alone as you have requested.
See the connection?
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