The Office of the Papacy in Scripture

[Daniel_Keeran]

In the first council of Christian Church in Jerusalem in 50-52 A.D when first Bishops (Apostles) have gather to discuss issues with ancient law as well teachings of Holy Gospels to Gentiles has with no doubt shown first hierarchy of the Holy Church and position of Saint Peter.

No other council probably where held again till beginning of first II century, in time when heresies started to arrive and faithful had to be strengthen in their faith. I would highly recommend reading of Eusebius Pamphili - Christian History.

Saint Peter was chosen as a leader of Apostles by Lord himself, questioning authority of that is very I must say disturbing, for in kind of way then why not start asking authority the whole Bishops of Church. And Lords words are enough for me.

God Bless

The next ecumenical council after Jerusalem was Nicea in 325 AD called by Constantine. I agree “the Lords words are enough for me” not only for knowing who is the head of the church but for all matters of faith. Someone will ask, “How can you know what scripture is the word of the Lord?” Because the true word of the Lord is living and active, piercing and judging the heart (Heb.4:12).

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

:bowdown2: Excellent argument, stephraim!

The word of God is living and active and reaches out to our hearts (Heb.4:12).

 

[PRmerger]

Daniel, you wrote: Actually it (destruction of the temple) did figure prominently in the preaching of Paul and of the writer of Hebrews.

And Randy responded:

Hmmm…Paul martyred around 65 AD…temple destroyed in 70 AD. Yet Paul wrote about the destruction of the Temple? Could you maybe share some verses for us ignorant Catholics?

Did you respond to this, Daniel? How could Paul preach prominently about the destruction of the Temple in 70AD when he died in 64 AD?

 

[PRmerger]

Someone will ask, “How can you know what scripture is the word of the Lord?” Because the true word of the Lord is living and active, piercing and judging the heart (Heb.4:12).

And when 2 people read the same Scripture verse and, each claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit, come to different conclusions, what next? Have we no recourse in your theological system, Daniel?

 

[paul_c]

Since baptism is into the body of Christ, the church, the true church of God is found wherever there is true baptism. (1 Cor.12:13).

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

One might have a visible or claimed succession from the apostles, but if the baptism is false, there is no church of God. Someone will say, “How do you know your interpretation is true?” By a careful and full study of the subject presented in scripture.

Okay, I’ll buy the formula that if you have a valid baptism, you are part of the Body of Christ. But unless you have the right basis, your interpretation of the Bible (or any book) will be faulty…

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Is it really so inconceivable that 1800 year old written records of a church which was being persecuted and their records destroyed would be lost? Don’t you think it makes sense that a lot more records exist after the persecutions stopped? And by the way, there are records for Clement, You just don’t want to recognize them because it invalidates your argument.

The letter of First Clement does not support Clement as a singular head of the whole church because:

1. The name of Clement is not in the letter.
2. There is no assertion of any claim of the bishop of Rome.
3. There was no singular bishop in Rome or Corinth at the time, as I previously proved.

Now you claim that 300 years of written statement from the vicar of Christ were destroyed?
Why were only those records destroyed and not the NT as well? You will say, “The church preserved the NT.” Why then did the church with God’s help not preserve the written statements of the popes, the vicar and voice of Christ on earth? I believe it is because the leaders of the church of Rome did not make such claims until Damasus.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Okay, I’ll buy the formula that if you have a valid baptism, you are part of the Body of Christ. But unless you have the right basis, your interpretation of the Bible (or any book) will be faulty…

If one can understand valid baptism by reading scripture and by obedience BE the church of God, one can understand other teachings in scripture as well.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

And when 2 people read the same Scripture verse and, each claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit, come to different conclusions, what next? Have we no recourse in your theological system, Daniel?

This was prophecied by Paul and that a departure would occur beginning with church leaders as well as those entering the flock (Acts 20). The wheat and tares will grow up together and a final seapration will occur when the Lord returns. Only God can judge the heart.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

Of course Jesus and the apostles warned us that false teachers and false prophets will arise. It is the responsibility of every Christian to discern between true and false.

1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

[PRmerger]

If one can understand valid baptism by reading scripture and by obedience BE the church of God, one can understand other teachings in scripture as well.

And your explanation of the over 40,000 Christian denominations who read the same Scriptures and “understand” it completely differently is…?

 

[PRmerger]

This was prophecied by Paul and that a departure would occur beginning with church leaders as well as those entering the flock (Acts 20). The wheat and tares will grow up together and a final seapration will occur when the Lord returns. Only God can judge the heart.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

Of course Jesus and the apostles warned us that false teachers and false prophets will arise. It is the responsibility of every Christian to discern between true and false.

1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Indeed.

So now what? What do we do when 2 people, each claiming inspiration by the Holy Spirit, read a verse in Scripture and come to different conclusions?

 

[MonFrere]

Someone will ask, “How can you know what scripture is the word of the Lord?” Because the true word of the Lord is living and active, piercing and judging the heart (Heb.4:12).

a little context please …

(Heb 4:8-12) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It seems to me the context here is using the words “the word of God” NOT as scripture but as to the sheer power of Jesus to effectively give us rest. Much like in the Genesis creation account. I really don’t think there was a literal speaking by God that one could hear him say - LET THERE BE LIGHT. This is simply a metaphor for His word having power; His will reigns supreme; He “says it” and it happens. That being the case - the kneejerk reflex that when the Bible speaks of “the word of God” in is NOT speaking of the Bible. The bible is generally pretty clear when it is talking of the written word – it says SCRIPTURE SAYS. And that is NOT the case here.

MonFrere

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Daniel, you wrote: Actually it (destruction of the temple) did figure prominently in the preaching of Paul and of the writer of Hebrews.

Did you respond to this, Daniel? How could Paul preach prominently about the destruction of the Temple in 70AD when he died in 64 AD?

I intended to say that the destruction of the temple was clearly prophesied by Jesus long before 70 AD. The end of the sacrificial system was clearly taught by Paul and in Hebrews.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

a little context please …

It seems to me the context here is using the words “the word of God” NOT as scripture but as to the sheer power of Jesus to effectively give us rest. Much like in the Genesis creation account. I really don’t think there was a literal speaking by God that one could hear him say - LET THERE BE LIGHT. This is simply a metaphor for His word having power; His will reigns supreme; He “says it” and it happens. That being the case - the kneejerk reflex that when the Bible speaks of “the word of God” in is NOT speaking of the Bible. The bible is generally pretty clear when it is talking of the written word – it says SCRIPTURE SAYS. And that is NOT the case here.

MonFrere

So you think the word of God here is Jesus, not the written or spoken word of God. I think the intent of the Hebrew passage is to say that the spoken or written word of God is powerful, living, and active. It is the mind of God reaching our hearts. We must hear and obey it in order to enter the rest spoken of. Is there a Catholic commentary that holds your view?

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Indeed.

So now what? What do we do when 2 people, each claiming inspiration by the Holy Spirit, read a verse in Scripture and come to different conclusions?

Paul says, “Be not yolked to unbelievers.” Only those who are baptized are believers, so when there is departure from baptism, there would be a division theologically if not in practice.

 

[MonFrere]

So you think the word of God here is Jesus, not the written or spoken word of God. I think the intent of the Hebrew passage is to say that the spoken or written word of God is powerful, living, and active. It is the mind of God reaching our hearts. We must hear and obey it in order to enter the rest spoken of. Is there a Catholic commentary that holds your view?

I’m speaking my opinion but also having that opinion formed by the Church. It seems to me that the context of verses surrounding Hebrews 4:12 leads to the conclusion that “word of God” is not in this passage referring to scripture.

Certainly, in principle we can say that the Bible is powerful, living etc. because the scriptures are “the word of God” BUT in the context of this particular verse the Holy Scriptures are not in view.

MonFrere

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

And your explanation of the over 40,000 Christian denominations who read the same Scriptures and “understand” it completely differently is…?

As the apostles warned: many false teachers and false prophets have gone out into the world. The onus is one each Christian to discern the spirit of truth and falsehood and each must give account personally before the judgment seat of Christ. “Work out your own salvation…”

 

[SteveGC]

Paul says, “Be not yolked to unbelievers.” Only those who are baptized are believers, so when there is departure from baptism, there would be a division theologically if not in practice.

Hi Dan,

I don’t think that answered PR’s question. He asked “what do we do…”?

And I would like to edit the question to ask, “what do we do when 2 baptized believers, each claiming inspiration by the Holy Spirit, read a verse in Scripture and come to different conclusions?”

How is it resolved? Who is right? Who would I want to follow?

 

[SteveGC]

As the apostles warned: many false teachers and false prophets have gone out into the world. The onus is one each Christian to discern the spirit of truth and falsehood and each must give account personally before the judgment seat of Christ. “Work out your own salvation…”

For a guy who is discerning the spirit of truth and falsehood, and working out his salvation, you sure are confidently preaching and spreading salvific doctrine around as if you are no longer seeking, but have now found. Must feel pretty good to know for sure all that Christ wants you to know, Dan.

And you did that all on your own, you and the indwelt Spirit of God guiding you through Scripture. Nothing more remains for you doctrinally? Got it all figured out now?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The word of God is living and active and reaches out to our hearts (Heb.4:12).

Daniel, are you taking the terms “word of God” to mean scripture everytime you see it? It’s not implied as written, spoken or to be Christ specifically. Isn’t this going against your belief that if it’s not specifically stated, it has to be questioned just as you do to the primacy of Peter?

I saw in another post if you asked if there was a Catholic Commentary on that verse and can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or really asking a question. It really doesn’t matter, I have nothing to hide and believe all the Catholic Church has to offer and will provide you some commentary on that particular verse.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living, &c. Some understand by the word of God, the eternal word, or Son of God: (to whom may apply all in the 12th and 13th verses) but others rather expound it of the words, promises, and menaces of God, either foretold by the prophets, or preached by the apostles. (Witham) — All this language is metaphorical, but perfectly well understood by the Jews. In their sacrifices, the Levites made use of a two-edged knife to separate from the victim what was for God, what was for the priests, and what was for the people. Thus in sacrificing sinners to the justice of God, Jesus Christ, like a two-edged knife, will separate what is for God, and what is for man; i.e. whatever is good or evil in the whole of man’s conduct.

11-13 Concluslon— This little finale really deserves to be called a peroration. It eloquently insists that every effort must be made to enter into that rest, which is equivalent to saying that every means must be taken to avoid the fate of the incredulous Israelites. They fell by resisting the word of God. We may fall in the same way. The qualities of the word of God, 12, 13, are such that there is no escape from its imperious authority, no hope of shirking our responsibility towards it. The word or logos is so boldly personified that some commentators have even identified it with the personal Logos. The context is against this view, but the word of God’s revelation is so authoritative as to be ultimately interchangeable with God who speaks it. ‘Living’ stands at the head of the list of its attributes, that is, the word of God is full of power to act with living force; it is effectual in attaining its purpose; more trenchant than any two-edged sword—as the short double-edged machaera is a cutting rather than a stabbing instrument, our equivalent phrase would be ‘as keen as a razor cutting fine and deep’. The subtle thoroughness of its dissection is expressed by saying that it reaches as far as dividing sensitive soul from thinking spirit (µe??sµó?, active verbal), and no closely knit joint, no hidden marrow of the bones is left untouched by it. This elaborate metaphor reveals in God’s word an allsearching power which becomes even more ‘personal’ when the word is presented as a ‘discerner’ (???te?ó?) of thoughts and intentions of the heart, a veritable judge of how one thinks and how one is minded, how one stands in regard to thought and feeling. The ‘heart’ is sometimes regarded as the seat of thought, but more often of man’s moral life, cf.Mat_15:17-20.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Since baptism is into the body of Christ, the church, the true church of God is found wherever there is true baptism. (1 Cor.12:13).

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

One might have a visible or claimed succession from the apostles, but if the baptism is false, there is no church of God. Someone will say, “How do you know your interpretation is true?” By a careful and full study of the subject presented in scripture.

By careful and full study of the subject presented in scripture?

That sounds like many denominations of Protestants, who do not agree. How do we know which one is correct?

The Catholic Church has been practicing baptisms the same since the beginning of the Church, which is the body of Christ. There is documentation for this. Do you have documentation that states your Church has been doing this since the beginning?