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Prodigal_Son1
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Sources Daniel, where are your sources for that statement?
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SteveGC
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Off topic, I know. But give me a quick definition of your version of “true baptism”. I know you had a separate thread for that too.
But, just to be clear…why then are you focusing on the papacy, or anything else besides “true baptism”, if it is true baptism that is the only thing holding us back from being a “true Church of Christ”, in your opinion?
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Prodigal_Son1
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Good! Then you should have no trouble producing some for us.
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Daniel_Keeran
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My agenda is the subject of this thread and is to share information. I have no desire nor ability to change anyone’s mind. And I do not recommend that anyone leave the Catholic church.
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SteveGC
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In other words, Dan…you claim some ‘ownership’ in all the documentation that The Catholic Church claims is Hers? and you do this because you don’t believe this documentation belongs to the Catholic Church?
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utunumsint
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You repeatedly make this claim, but what does it matter? Does it say anything about Clement’s authority? The president of the US is considered the first among equals: does that make him powerless?
One of these was the bishop to whom Ignatius’ letter was written. The church of Rome which presides in love.
Pius is mentioned in the Muratorian Fragment in relation to the Shepherd of Hermas. In Hermas it states that Pius was in charge of promulgating his letter throughout the church. Why? By what authority can he do this? The letter of hermas was so well reguarded in some circules that some considered it to be partially inspired.
Polycarp comes to him from Ephesus in order to consult over the issue of Easter. Soter does not condemn him, but why was it so important for Polycard to come to him, at such an advanced age? Why was it so important for him to go to the bishop of Rome?
Soter also receives a letter from the Corinthians, praising the epislte of St. Clement, written 60 years before. Why such reverence for his letter?
This was also the Easter that the rest of the Christian world observed. Why was it so important for these ancient churchmen to have a uniform date for celebrating easter? Because doctrine was quintecentially important to them. There was only one faith for these people, and it had to be celebrated in a unified way. And who did they turn to when disputes arised? To the bishop of Rome, as Polycarp did thirty years before, and the Corinthians did one hundred years previous.
Defines the parameters of orthodox trinitarian doctrine by rejecting both extremes of modalism, and an early temptation to Arianism, affirming both the unity of God, and the reality of the three persons of the trinity.
He also defines moral issues on adultary, and the ability of the Church to forgive sins. Is blasted by Tertullian for doing this based on the authority of the keys. Tertullian rejects the authority of the pope and the bishops, but in so doing underlines the real authority they possessed.
Condemns Dionysius of Alexandria for falling into Sebelliansm. Dionysius feels so strongly about the issue that he writes an entire book defending himself against the charge. Why does he do so unless Cornelius’s condemnation was law?
Stephen rejects Cyprian’s council and their resolution to the controversy over heretic baptism. The whole church follows suit.
The list goes on and on, and on. Silence!! Really!!!
God bless,
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Daniel_Keeran
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Correct. The owner of any truth is Christ, the author of our salvation.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Here’s a definition of baptism according to a Church of Christ, in Kailua Kona, Hawaii.
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paul_c
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You are misinterpreting this. It says to do as the leaders say because they speak with authority given to them by God but not to follow their example when they sin. Is that so hard to understand?
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paul_c
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Honestly, how is the NT an authority?
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paul_c
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You are missing the point entirely. Jesus commissioned the Church to help all people get to Heaven. We humbly submit to that authority because we believe that Jesus told us the truth when he said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church that he was founding on the Rock, St. Peter. You, on the other hand, believe that you personally know more than the Church and all its revelations and the work of its millions of theologians over the last 2000 years. Who does proverb 28:25 more adequately discuss?
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paul_c
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For one, they are summarized in the Nicene Creed…
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paul_c
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The Catholic Church has always existed wherever there is true baptism. Your church, no mater what you choose to call it, can not claim that. Although you haven’t made all of the doctrines clear, we know that it doesn’t agree with Matthew 16: 18-19 and therefore can’t have been there since the beginning.
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Daniel_Keeran
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The letter called Clement is not from him but from the church and says nothing about the authority of any singular bishop but refers only to plural bishops.
While Ignatius refers frequently to a singular bishop of other congregations, he conspicuously refers to none at Rome, known for its conservatism.
Hermas refers to a plurality of “presbyters who preside” and refers by name to two leaders Clemens and Grapte. Again, there was no singular bishop in Rome at this time. Clemens, not Pius, was to circulate the letters.
"…if I had yet given the book to the presbyters. And I said that I had not. And then she said, “You have done well, for I have some words to add. But when I finish all the words, all the elect will then become acquainted with them through you. You will write therefore two books, and you will send the one to Clemens and the other to Grapte. And Grapte will admonish the widows and the orphans. But you will read the words in this city, along with the presbyters who preside over the Church.”
Because of a division over observance. What is interesting is that they did not reach agreement except to accept their differences, and Polycarp did not defer to Soter’s view.
Yes, I also highly regard this letter but do not believe Clement was a Pope.
Did they not regard the authority of Paul who told Christians not to judge one another over the observance of a day? (Romans 14). Surely this demonstrates arrogance on Victor’s part. He loved to be pre-eminent like Diotrephes.
The bishop of Rome came to be highly regarded but not as head of the church and having juridical power over the whole church.
Did the bishop of Rome speak as the head of the church with juridical power over the whole church?
Of course, by Tertullian’s time bishops held power over their dioceses. Tert. thought all Christians had the keys and he waffled on the role of the bishop of Rome.
Obviously because Cornelius’ view was important but as head over the whole church? He made no such claim.
Certainly many churches looked to Stephen but as head over the whole church? I think Stephen is the first to claim to be “bishop of bishops.”
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paul_c
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I love the fact that even you can find the full Papal continuity. Doesnt that mean a paper trail exists.
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Prodigal_Son1
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So you claim to have ownership of all documents held by the Catholic Church and you also claim only full immersion is a valid baptism? You also seem to object to infant baptism. Below are some of the writings of the early Church fathers, you try to claim as your own. What Church’s doctrines of baptism today, do those writings, written prior to the canon of the New Testament being defined and prior to some scriptures of the New Testament being written, match?
The Didache
After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).
Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father… and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life” (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).
Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).
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paul_c
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Are you kidding me?
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Prodigal_Son1
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Maybe he got it from the oral tradition.
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Prodigal_Son1
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I asked for his sources for that statement, but somehow he overlooked my request.
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paul_c
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(Edited) Daniel knows that some Catholics are baptized by sprinkling, rather than full immersion and while it was good enough for the ECFs, it is not good enough for Daniel. Therefore, Daniel has pronounced them invalidly baptized. This is all based on his translation of the word baptized in scripture, which he claims to mean immersion.
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