The Office of the Papacy in Scripture

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Very useful documentation for understanding how the papacy emerged and for understanding that it did not exist in the New Testament period.
Ah! I finally am seeing what your opposition to the papacy is. You want the New Testament papacy to be the same as the 21st century papacy.

We Catholics will all agree with you that the office of the papacy developed. If that’s your point, then we all cry, “Uncle!”
 
This admission is all that is needed to support my view that the office of the chief spokesman of God was not established with successors in the NT.
The office existed from the moment Jesus established it by declaring that Peter was the Rock upon whom He would build His Church and by giving Peter the Keys of the Prime Minister of His kingdom. Jesus further confirmed Peter’s leadership by directing him to nourish and rule over the flock in John 21.

However, the style of the papacy has surely changed over the centuries…but that is not the same as saying that the office itself did not exist.

The following excerpt explains why an explicit demonstration of papal infallibility in the early Fathers is neither necessary nor fatal to the Catholic claims later defined at the First Vatican Council in 1870.

Let us see how, on the principles which I have been laying down and defending, the evidence lies for the Pope’s supremacy.

As to this doctrine the question is this, whether there was not from the first a certain element at work, or in existence, divinely sanctioned, which, for certain reasons, did not at once show itself upon the surface of ecclesiastical affairs, and of which events in the fourth century are the development; and whether the evidence of its existence and operation, which does occur in the earlier centuries, be it much or little, is not just such as ought to occur upon such an hypothesis.

While Apostles were on earth, there was the display neither of Bishop nor Pope; their power had no prominence, as being exercised by Apostles. In course of time, first the power of the Bishop displayed itself, and then the power of the Pope…St. Peter’s prerogative would remain a mere letter, till the complication of ecclesiastical matters became the cause of ascertaining it. While Christians were “of one heart and soul,” it would be suspended; love dispenses with laws . . .

When the Church, then, was thrown upon her own resources, first local disturbances gave exercise to Bishops,and next ecumenical disturbances gave exercise to Popes; and whether communion with the Pope was necessary for Catholicity would not and could not be debated till a suspension of that communion had actually occurred. it is not a greater difficulty that St. Ignatius does not write to the Asian Greeks about Popes, than that St. Paul does not write to the Corinthians about Bishops. And it is a less difficulty that the Papal supremacy was not formally acknowledged in the second century, than that there was no formal acknowledgment on the part of the Church of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity till the fourth. No doctrine is defined till it is violated . . .

Moreover, an international bond and a common authority could not be consolidated, were it ever so certainly provided, while persecutions lasted. If the Imperial Power checked the development of Councils, it availed also for keeping back the power of the Papacy. The Creed, the Canon, in like manner, both remained undefined. The Creed, the Canon, the Papacy, Ecumenical Councils, all began to form, as soon as the Empire relaxed its tyrannous oppression of the Church. And as it was natural that her monarchical power should display itself when the Empire became Christian, so was it natural also that further developments of that power should take place when that Empire fell. Moreover, when the power of the Holy See began to exert itself, disturbance and collision would be the necessary consequence . . . as St. Paul had to plead, nay, to strive for his apostolic authority, and enjoined St. Timothy, as Bishop of Ephesus, to let no man despise him:so Popes too have not therefore been ambitious because they did not establish their authority without a struggle. It was natural that Polycrates should oppose St. Victor; and natural too that St. Cyprian should both extol the See of St. Peter, yet resist it when he thought it went beyond its province . . .

On the whole, supposing the power to be divinely bestowed, yet in the first instance more or less dormant, a history could not be traced out more probable, more suitable to that hypothesis, than the actual course of the controversy which took place age after age upon the Papal supremacy.

It will be said that all this is a theory. Certainly it is: it is a theory to account for facts as they lie in the history, to account for so much being told us about the Papal authority in early times, and not more; a theory to reconcile what is and what is not recorded about it; and, which is the principal point, a theory to connect the words and acts of the Ante-nicene Church with that antecedent probability of a monarchical principle in the Divine Scheme, and that actual exemplification of it in the fourth century, which forms their presumptive interpretation. All depends on the strength of that presumption. Supposing there be otherwise good reason for saying that the Papal Supremacy is part of Christianity, there is nothing in the early history of the Church to contradict it…

Moreover, all this must be viewed in the light of the general probability, so much insisted on above, that doctrine cannot but develop as time proceeds and need arises, and that its developments are parts of the Divine system, and that therefore it is lawful, or rather necessary, to interpret the words and deeds of the earlier Church by the determinate teaching of the later.

(Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman, Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1878 ed., Univ. of Notre Dame Press, 1989, pp. 148-155; Part 1, Chapter 4, Section 3.)
 
Ah! I finally am seeing what your opposition to the papacy is. You want the New Testament papacy to be the same as the 21st century papacy.

We Catholics will all agree with you that the office of the papacy developed. If that’s your point, then we all cry, “Uncle!”
I DO believe:
  1. Peter WITH his confession is the ROCK on which the church is built
  2. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom (and the relevance of Is.22)
  3. Peter was given power to bind and loose (wiith all the apostles)
  4. Points 1-5 below were later developments
I DO NOT believe:
  1. Peter was made the singular head of the church on earth
  2. The office of papacy was established in the NT
  3. The notion of papal successors was established in the NT
  4. The papacy as the basis of unity was established in the NT
  5. The papacy as singular source of truth and singular spokeman for God was established in the NT.
 
I DO believe:
  1. Peter WITH his confession is the ROCK on which the church is built
  2. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom (and the relevance of Is.22)
  3. Peter was given power to bind and loose (wiith all the apostles)
  4. Points 1-5 below were later developments
I DO NOT believe:
  1. Peter was made the singular head of the church on earth
  2. The office of papacy was established in the NT
  3. The notion of papal successors was established in the NT
  4. The papacy as the basis of unity was established in the NT
  5. The papacy as singular source of truth and singular spokeman for God was established in the NT.
Thanks for sharing your personal beliefs.

Of course, a 2,000-year-old Church established by Jesus Christ and protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error in matters of faith and morals says otherwise. We Catholics will stick with what that Church, basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition , teaches instead.

But we do appreciate your time and energy in this thread.

Shall we move on to other topics (threads) of interest?
 
I DO believe:
  1. Peter WITH his confession is the ROCK on which the church is built
  2. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom (and the relevance of Is.22)
  3. Peter was given power to bind and loose (wiith all the apostles)
  4. Points 1-5 below were later developments
I DO NOT believe:
  1. Peter was made the singular head of the church on earth
  2. The office of papacy was established in the NT
  3. The notion of papal successors was established in the NT
  4. The papacy as the basis of unity was established in the NT
  5. The papacy as singular source of truth and singular spokeman for God was established in the NT.
Daniel, have you read “The Last Battle” by CS Lewis? There’s a chapter called “How the Dwarves Refused to be Taken In”

The Dwarves are stubbornly insistent that they are in a “pitch-black, poky, smelly little hole of a stable” when in reality they are in a beautiful, sunny Narnian field, with “sweet orchards and flashing waterfalls”. Despite others showing them the truth, providing clear evidence, the Dwarves refuse to see. Someone shows them violets–Look! How can you be in a stinky stable if there’s violets here!–and a dwarf responds, “How dare you! What do you mean by shoving a lot of filthy stable-litter in my face?”

sigh Those poor stubborn dwarves.

We have shown you the violets and you continue to smell manure. What else can we do? 🤷
 
I DO believe:
  1. Peter WITH his confession is the ROCK on which the church is built
  2. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom (and the relevance of Is.22)
  3. Peter was given power to bind and loose (wiith all the apostles)
  4. Points 1-5 below were later developments
I DO NOT believe:
  1. Peter was made the singular head of the church on earth
  2. The office of papacy was established in the NT
  3. The notion of papal successors was established in the NT
  4. The papacy as the basis of unity was established in the NT
  5. The papacy as singular source of truth and singular spokeman for God was established in the NT.
All this is nice, but I suggest that if you want to add some credibility to your views of the papacy, study the Orthodox view.

Generally, their dislike of the Roman Church is much more vehement (and credible) than the SS crowd.
 
Daniel, have you read “The Last Battle” by CS Lewis? There’s a chapter called “How the Dwarves Refused to be Taken In”

The Dwarves are stubbornly insistent that they are in a “pitch-black, poky, smelly little hole of a stable” when in reality they are in a beautiful, sunny Narnian field, with “sweet orchards and flashing waterfalls”. Despite others showing them the truth, providing clear evidence, the Dwarves refuse to see. Someone shows them violets–Look! How can you be in a stinky stable if there’s violets here!–and a dwarf responds, “How dare you! What do you mean by shoving a lot of filthy stable-litter in my face?”

sigh Those poor stubborn dwarves.

We have shown you the violets and you continue to smell manure. What else can we do? 🤷
Yes one can be creative with stories and analogies. Are they of God?
 
All this is nice, but I suggest that if you want to add some credibility to your views of the papacy, study the Orthodox view.

Generally, their dislike of the Roman Church is much more vehement (and credible) than the SS crowd.
Thanks for the advice. I believe the individual can know the truth by a study of scripture. Otherwise, this forum is a waste fo time.
 
Thanks for the advice. I believe the individual can know the truth by a study of scripture. Otherwise, this forum is a waste fo time.
And when there are multiple people who claim to know truth from a study of scripture, all claiming Holy Spirit guidance, who should one believe and who has the authority to declare all the others incorrect? 🤷

Daniel, you haven’t addressed the question above, at least not with any specificity.

You have only provided your opinion and asked us to read a book, other than the Bible I’d like to add, far removed from the proximity of time that the scriptures were written or even when the canon of the New Testament was defined.

You have taken the writings of the early Church fathers, provided, and spun them to fit your view and have not provided any writings to support that yours is the Church Christ built. In addition, you have not provided any writings to support your view, that there was not an earthly leader, in Jesus’ earthly absence, of the Church Christ established.

Since you’ve claimed those early Church father’s writings as your own, that is of your Church’s own, I’d like to suggest we move on to other doctrines that they wrote about. Clearly if they are writings from your Church, the doctrines they teach will match your Church’s doctrines more closely than the Catholic Church’s doctrines. Are you up for an honest challenge?
 
The Messianic prophecies refer to the NZRT (branch), so it is there a number of times.
Actually, according to Biblical scholar Raymond Brown, there are three different theories about this particular prophecy, each as plausible, yet none is a clear winner.
*
The Birth of the Messiah*
Raymond Brown
752 pages
Anchor Bible; Updated edition (May 18, 1999)
ISBN-10: 0385494475
ISBN-13: 978-0385494472
Certainly different bishops of Rome are quoted briefly in Eusebius but not as the head of the church since Eusebius does not refer to anyone as a singular head of the whole church. He did not refer to the papacy at all.
“There is extant also another epistle written by Dionysius to the Romans, and addressed to Soter, who was bishop at that time. We cannot do better than to subjoin some passages from this epistle, in which he commends the practice of the Romans which has been retained down to the persecution in our own days. His words are as follows: ‘For from the beginning it has been your practice to do good to all the brethren in various ways, and to send contributions to many churches in every city. Thus relieving the want of the needy, and making provision for the brethren in the mines by the gifts which you have sent from the beginning, you Romans keep up the hereditary customs of the Romans, which your blessed bishop Soter has not only maintained, but also added to, furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints, and encouraging the brethren from abroad with blessed words, as a loving father his children.’”

Eusebius, Church History , 23, NPNF2, 1:201.
Such threats did not destroy the NT and so should not have destroyed the archives of those who allegedly spoke for God.
Really, where are Paul’s letters to the Corinthians and Laodicians? Surely they contained valued theological and liturgical advice.
We do have early copies and fragments of the NT letters/books, but where are those of the alleged spokesmen of God in the popes, their own letters and decrees? Did the Catholic church not deem them important enough to preserve?
Again, where are Paul’s other two letters?
This admission is all that is needed to support my view that the office of the chief spokesman of God was not established with successors in the NT.
Your belief in sola Scriptura requires you to reject the doctrine of the Holy Trinity (three consubstantial Persons in One God), the hypostatic union of Christ (fully God and fully man, two natures joined in one Person), and Mary Theotokos (Mother of God) which were defined in ecumenical councils and not explicitly stated in the NT.
The church was highly regarded but not in any exclusive way as the sole source of truth, until much later times.
“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the transcendent Majesty of the Most High Father and of Jesus Christ, His only Son; the church by the will of Him who willed all things that exist, beloved and illuminated through the faith and love of Jesus Christ our God; which also presides in the chief place of the Roman territory; a church worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of felicitation, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding in love, maintaining the law of Christ, and bearer of the Father’s name: her do I therefore salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father. Heartiest good wishes for unimpaired joy in Jesus Christ our God, to those who are united in flesh and spirit by every commandment of His; who imperturbably enjoy the full measure of God’s grace and have every foreign stain filtered out of them.”

Ignatius, Epistle to the Romans, preface, in Clement and Ignatius, Epistles, 80.

Ignatius also uses the word “preside” in his Epistle to the Magnesians, where he says, “Let the bishop **preside **in the place of God, and his clergy in place of the apostolic conclave” (6,1).

The phrase “presiding in love” can also be translated as “presiding over the bond of [the] love”. The Greek article “the” stands before the word “love”, making it an articular Greek construction that points to a specific object. “The word ἀγάπη, ‘love’ has often the meaning in St. Ignatius of ‘the community.’ The Greek verb προκάθεμαι, ‘I preside over,’ is always found followed, as in Plato (Laws 758 D), by some such word as ‘city’ and never by a merely abstract noun like ‘love.’ Whether St. Ignatius has in mind a pre-eminence of authority or charity, the context seems to imply that he means a **universal **not merely a local pre-eminence”

Glimm et al., Apostolic Fathers, 107, n. 2.

“Remember in your prayers the Church in Syria which now has God for her Shepherd in my stead. Jesus Christ alone will be her Bishop, together with your love ἀγάπη].”

Ignatius, Epistle to the Romans 9, 1, in Clement and Ignatius, Epistles, 84.

“[Perler] points out that the Roman Church alone, among those addressed in Ignatius’ extant letters, is expected to have ‘oversight’ or ‘care’ for the *distant *Church of Antioch—just as the same Roman Church had shown maternal concern for the Church of Corinth in its distress”

B.C. Butler, *The Church and Infallibility: A Reply to the Abridged “Salmon” *[New York: Sheed and Ward, 1954], 131.
 
Thanks for the advice. I believe the individual can know the truth by a study of scripture. Otherwise, this forum is a waste of time.
Really? Study of Scripture has led to Arianism, Modalism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, etc.as well as rejection of sacramental baptism, the Eucharist, etc.

“And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.” - 2 Peter 3:15-16
 
Daniel,

When I was a Protestant I was often taught that the Christian himself was the very best way to bring a person to Christ. The personal witness of the Christian witnesses to the gospel far more than tracts, reading, study and even the words of scripture. Do you agree?

I think this is true because of the fact built into our human nature – we are primarily relational beings. Being relational beings because of the way God created us; doesn’t it make much greater sense that God would use an institution to bring the truth of the gospel to people than to rely upon a book; albeit a Holy Book.

What sola scriptura does is to force man into a second best way of giving him the truth of his primary needs as a human. This means God is using a second best method for bring about His holy will for human beings, to give them salvation. This makes no logical sense for God to do this.

Man is simply incapable of understanding the Bible, even with the aid of the Holy Spirit, on his own. Protestants refuse to admit this. This is because Protestant theology really doesn’t address man as the creature God created him to be. Sola scriptura fails because man is incapable of relating to a book without the relationship to a Church. Man isn’t made for scripture man is made for a Church.

In theory Protestantism could exist without a visible Church. All you would need is a Bible and the Holy Spirit. In theory Catholicism could not only exist, but thrive, if not one member owned a bible, but they had the institutional visible Church complete with its liturgy. The Protestant deemphasis of the Church has made a mockery of the Church that Christ said He would build. Again, the reason is because there is no relationship between Protestant theology and the nature of the human being as God created it. Men, being what they are, NEED a Church, a visible Church, one which they can fully relate and be a part – without which they are, as physical human beings, incomplete.

MonFrere
 
Daniel,

When I was a Protestant I was often taught that the Christian himself was the very best way to bring a person to Christ. The personal witness of the Christian witnesses to the gospel far more than tracts, reading, study and even the words of scripture. Do you agree?

I think this is true because of the fact built into our human nature – we are primarily relational beings. Being relational beings because of the way God created us; doesn’t it make much greater sense that God would use an institution to bring the truth of the gospel to people than to rely upon a book; albeit a Holy Book.

What sola scriptura does is to force man into a second best way of giving him the truth of his primary needs as a human. This means God is using a second best method for bring about His holy will for human beings, to give them salvation. This makes no logical sense for God to do this.

Man is simply incapable of understanding the Bible, even with the aid of the Holy Spirit, on his own. Protestants refuse to admit this. This is because Protestant theology really doesn’t address man as the creature God created him to be. Sola scriptura fails because man is incapable of relating to a book without the relationship to a Church. Man isn’t made for scripture man is made for a Church.

In theory Protestantism could exist without a visible Church. All you would need is a Bible and the Holy Spirit. In theory Catholicism could not only exist, but thrive, if not one member owned a bible, but they had the institutional visible Church complete with its liturgy. The Protestant deemphasis of the Church has made a mockery of the Church that Christ said He would build. Again, the reason is because there is no relationship between Protestant theology and the nature of the human being as God created it. Men, being what they are, NEED a Church, a visible Church, one which they can fully relate and be a part – without which they are, as physical human beings, incomplete.

MonFrere
Very well stated, indeed. This is the message I constantly try to broadcast on this forum. Very well put, MF. A simple look at one’s own upbringing reveals that learning is a relational experience, supported by instruments such as books, visual aids, experimentation, etc. But it is always primarily the transference of knowledge from one PERSON to another.

This not only should speak to the Bible-only concept, but also to the overwhelming need for explicit “written proof” of the Church’s entire historical existence as a Christ-sanctioned authority. I never expect many to grasp the logic of this argument, much less accept it, because to do so would be to give real credence to the fact that the Catholic Church is indeed the ONE Church…and that admission is simply too much to bear for most.
 
Quote:
The Messianic prophecies refer to the NZRT (branch), so it is there a number of times.
I was wanting to know if you had a reference?
Isaiah 11:1
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch (NZRT) will bear fruit.

Jeremiah 33:15
In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch (NZRT) sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the land.
 
“There is extant also another epistle written by Dionysius to the Romans, and addressed to Soter, who was bishop at that time. We cannot do better than to subjoin some passages from this epistle, in which he commends the practice of the Romans which has been …you have sent from the beginning, you Romans keep up the hereditary customs of the Romans, which your blessed bishop Soter has not only maintained, but also added to, furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints, and encouraging the brethren from abroad with blessed words, as a loving father his children.’”

Eusebius, Church History , 23, NPNF2, 1:201.

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the transcendent Majesty of …which also presides in the chief place of the Roman territory; a church worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of felicitation, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding in love, maintaining the law of Christ, and bearer of the Father’s name: her do I therefore salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father. Heartiest good wishes for unimpaired joy in Jesus Christ our God, to those who are united in flesh and spirit by every commandment of His; who imperturbably enjoy the full measure of God’s grace and have every foreign stain filtered out of them.”

Ignatius, Epistle to the Romans, preface, in Clement and Ignatius, Epistles, 80.

Ignatius also uses the word “preside” in his Epistle to the Magnesians, where he says, “Let the bishop **preside **in the place of God, and his clergy in place of the apostolic conclave” (6,1).

The phrase “presiding in love” can also be translated as “presiding over the bond of [the] love”. The Greek article “the” stands before the word “love”, making it an articular Greek construction that points to a specific object. “The word ἀγάπη, ‘love’ has often the meaning in St. Ignatius of ‘the community.’ The Greek verb προκάθεμαι, ‘I preside over,’ is always found followed, as in Plato (Laws 758 D), by some such word as ‘city’ and never by a merely abstract noun like ‘love.’ Whether St. Ignatius has in mind a pre-eminence of authority or charity, the context seems to imply that he means a **universal **not merely a local pre-eminence”

Glimm et al., Apostolic Fathers, 107, n. 2.

“Remember in your prayers the Church in Syria which now has God for her Shepherd in my stead. Jesus Christ alone will be her Bishop, together with your love ἀγάπη].”

Ignatius, Epistle to the Romans 9, 1, in Clement and Ignatius, Epistles, 84.
The above quotes show there was no singular bishop in Rome during the time of Ignatius or he would have referred to it as he did to the other churches he wrote.

Are you familiar with the pseudo-Clementine literature, spurious documents written before Stephen, that refer to Peter as having transferred his authority to Clement in Rome, keys, binding and loosing, teaching chair? This document appears to have had wide influence and was thot to be genuine until the Renaissance. Here are some excerpts:

"I lay hands upon this Clement as your bishop; and to him I entrust my chair of discourse, even to him who has journeyed with me from the beginning to the end, and thus has heard all my homilies…Wherefore I communicate to him the power of binding and loosing, so that with respect to everything which he shall ordain in the earth, it shall be decreed in the heavens. For he shall bind what ought to be bound, and loose what ought to be loosed, as knowing the role of the Church. Therefore hear him, as knowing that he who grieves the president of the truth, sins against Christ, and offends the Father of all. Wherefore he shall not live; and therefore it becomes him who presides to hold the place of a physician, and not to cherish the rage of an irrational beast.”

“Therefore take the oversight gladly; and all the more in good time, because you have learned from me the administration of the Church, for the safety of the brethren who have taken refuge with us.”

“…that you may have the care of the Church always, in order both to your administering it well, and to your holding forth the words of truth.”

“…and so let them listen to you, knowing that whatever the ambassador of the truth shall bind upon earth is bound also in heaven, and what he shall loose is loosed. But you shall bind what ought to be bound, and loose what ought to be loosed. And these, and such like, are the things that relate to you as president.”

"Having thus spoken, he laid his hands upon me in the presence of all, and compelled me to sit in his own chair. And when I was seated, he immediately said to me: “I entreat you, in the presence of all the brethren here, that whensoever I depart from this life, as depart I must, you send to James the brother of the Lord a brief account of your reasonings from your boyhood, and how from the beginning until now you have journeyed with me, hearing the discourses preached by me in every city, and seeing my deeds. …when he learns, that not an unlearned man, or one ignorant of life-giving words, or not knowing the rule of the Church, shall be entrusted with the chair of the teacher after me. For the discourse of a deceiver destroys the souls of the multitudes who hear.”
 
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