The Ol' Mormon "Switcheroo"?

[RebeccaJ]

I think the distinction being made in the manual is between freedom of choice and bondage. Christ would have us free to choose him, Satan would force us to follow him.

Saved by grace is not hearsay, indeed we are saved in no other way. Our works are not sufficient. But there is still effort in turning to God. The Book of Mormon provides one of the clearest statements on the matter. Christ says, “And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them” (Ether 12:27). The humble know their weakness. If they come to God he will enable them to overcome it. In this manner they grow. Thus their works follow them.

It is a level or two or three deeper than that.

Christian doctrine is, Christ died for all, and did so while we are still sinners. God did not have to save us, but God is merciful. This is God’s grace. God didn’t ask our permission to be saved and there is no other who would be asked to save us. JESUS IS GOD. It is God Himself who has saved us. No other could do it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I heard something interesting in an anti-MormonISM video on Youtube.

Now we all (should) know that Mormonism considers the “Saved by Grace” doctrine
as heretical. I already knew that well, but in the video I was talking about before, the
person speaking actually cited Mormon scripture to expose this reasoning:**AND **I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in
the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came be-
fore me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind,
that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
But behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said un-
to me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man,
which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also , that I should give unto him mine own power; by
the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

• Moses 4:1-3
  The person whom I was listening to about that passage pointed
  out that it was actually Satan who was offering Grace, then he
  goes further, suggesting that Jesus in Mormonism was actual-
  ly the one insisting on Laws and Works.

Interested, I decided to check this out and found this:“Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give His life for us, and take upon Himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation … Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, ‘Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor’ (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation. Under his proposal, our purpose in coming to earth would have been frustrated”

• Gospel Principles [Church Manual] (pp. 13, 15)

So with that, I hav’to ask: Am I understanding that correctly? That Mormons not only belittle
the “Saved by Grace” as heresy, but even go so far that it was offered by the Mormon Devil
and that the Mormon Jesus suggested the “Good Works” plan?!

If so, talk about a 180°!​

Mormons make a distinction between salvation and exaltation. While salvation is a sort of, kind of grace in Mormonism, exaltation requires works and following laws (to the letter). Your second quote there is in regards to exaltation, not salvation.

I say sort of, kind of, because Mormonism is centered on the free will of humans. The belief being, everyone who has ever lived, is living now, or will live, agreed in a pre-existence to being saved. For Mormons, this life is to a test, to see who is worthy of exaltation (becoming gods/goddesses).

I’ve never seen a Mormon who understands that God did not have to save us. The very definition of grace is that we are saved, in God’s mercy and love. The rejection of the doctrine of Original Sin is at the root of this divergence from Christianity. Mormons do not view that we (all humans) are saved by grace, but that we are saved by a plan which has the intended goal of becoming gods/goddesses. The narrative you’ve posted describes the plan and how it came to be. ie, exaltation is a choice and requires works.

But really, what you’ve posted aligns to what someone else posted in another Mormon thread. The un-necessary nature of God, in the Mormon framework. ANYONE could save us, just Jesus was chosen among many. ANY number of Gods can create, just there is the “God of this world” that Mormons worship.



The Mormon mind frame is, the plan is in motion, the salvation part of the plan is done, and now all that is left to do are the works required to become exalted (including doing works for the dead, so they can be exalted too).

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Taylorf and iepuras,

I’m very happy for both of you that you are able to go through your conversion with your spouses (and presumably the rest of your immediate family). Of all the LDS-to-anything conversions stories I’ve read the hardest bit is always the ramifications for the family unit, as we all well understand why. Besides my issues in discerning between the Catholic and Orthodox churches, the next biggest hurdle is my family. If I were nothing but a childless (and wifeless) old man I’d at least stop going to church by now. But I’m an old man with too many damn children! 12 adult children, some 27 grandchildren and 4 great-grandchildren… all of whom are BIC Mormons.

I’m still a practicing LDS only because of my family, and most of all because of my wife whom the Good Lord will likely call home any day now. Even if Jesus Christ himself were to appear to me and say “What are you waiting for you fool!? Run to the nearest Catholic Church and get baptized today!” I haven’t the slightest idea how I’d break it to my family. I hope you two know that you’re very fortunate to have a partner going through this with you Please pray for me.

 

[debbie_h]

Thanks. Sorry, I guess I should update my status to reflect my position more accurately.

In short - BIC multi-generational LDS, served a mission in Sweden, graduated from BYU, married in the temple, and active member, although my testimony had started slowly eroding soon after returning from the mission. About a year ago I felt like I was slacking as member and that I needed to recommit myself for my family’s sake, so I re-immersed myself in LDS doctrine. Problem was…I started with Joseph Smith. Second problem was…I used the internet. It all fell apart from there and the final nail came when I listened to the recording of the Swedish Rescue meeting with Marlin Jensen and Rick Turley; I realized there were no good answers and no good explanations for anything that came from Joseph Smith. In August, I met with my Bishop to let him know we were done with the LDS church.

In the meantime, my wife and I were talking at one point and admitted to each other that growing up we both had always a mysterious draw to the Catholic church. We decided to find out more, so I found this forum in March, read the catechism over the summer, watched as many RCIA videos as I could find on youtube, and started going to Mass a month ago. RCIA here started a couple weeks ago, so I guess we have about 6 months to go.

Welcome home!!
I too had this mysterious draw to the Catholic Church growing up

 

[debbie_h]

Taylorf and iepuras,

I’m very happy for both of you that you are able to go through your conversion with your spouses (and presumably the rest of your immediate family). Of all the LDS-to-anything conversions stories I’ve read the hardest bit is always the ramifications for the family unit, as we all well understand why. Besides my issues in discerning between the Catholic and Orthodox churches, the next biggest hurdle is my family. If I were nothing but a childless (and wifeless) old man I’d at least stop going to church by now. But I’m an old man with too many damn children! 12 adult children, some 27 grandchildren and 4 great-grandchildren… all of whom are BIC Mormons.

I’m still a practicing LDS only because of my family, and most of all because of my wife whom the Good Lord will likely call home any day now. Even if Jesus Christ himself were to appear to me and say “What are you waiting for you fool!? Run to the nearest Catholic Church and get baptized today!” I haven’t the slightest idea how I’d break it to my family. I hope you two know that you’re very fortunate to have a partner going through this with you Please pray for me.

I will pray for you & all others who are going through the same things

 

[TexanKnight]

Tex,

Can you elaborate on the houses?

New for me…

Tx

PnP

sure…

js would have the “revelations” from God that his flock was instructed to build js a house. He received free houses that way.

 

[Porknpie]

sure…

js would have the “revelations” from God that his flock was instructed to build js a house. He received free houses that way.

And he rented out rooms to use as income?

Did he meet any of his future spouses this way??

Curious. Tx Tex.

PnP

 

[TexanKnight]

And he rented out rooms to use as income?

Did he meet any of his future spouses this way??

Curious. Tx Tex.

PnP

look at DC 124:56 and I think D&C 41.

Yes, it not only gave a place to live, but provided income. Not sure about future spouses. He got most of them from amongst the members

 

[Porknpie]

Thanks. Sorry, I guess I should update my status to reflect my position more accurately.

In short - BIC multi-generational LDS, served a mission in Sweden, graduated from BYU, married in the temple, and active member, although my testimony had started slowly eroding soon after returning from the mission. About a year ago I felt like I was slacking as member and that I needed to recommit myself for my family’s sake, so I re-immersed myself in LDS doctrine. Problem was…I started with Joseph Smith. Second problem was…I used the internet. It all fell apart from there and the final nail came when I listened to the recording of the Swedish Rescue meeting with Marlin Jensen and Rick Turley; I realized there were no good answers and no good explanations for anything that came from Joseph Smith. In August, I met with my Bishop to let him know we were done with the LDS church.

In the meantime, my wife and I were talking at one point and admitted to each other that growing up we both had always a mysterious draw to the Catholic church. We decided to find out more, so I found this forum in March, read the catechism over the summer, watched as many RCIA videos as I could find on youtube, and started going to Mass a month ago. RCIA here started a couple weeks ago, so I guess we have about 6 months to go.

Wonderful Taylor! Welcome Home.

Would you mind sharing more about your mission trip? Were there any theological moments of doubt as you met people and they share their faith with you? Were there specific questions asked of you which you felt that you did not have a good answer for?

Curious,

PnP

 

[Porknpie]

Thanks. Sorry, I guess I should update my status to reflect my position more accurately.

In short - BIC multi-generational LDS, served a mission in Sweden, graduated from BYU, married in the temple, and active member, although my testimony had started slowly eroding soon after returning from the mission. About a year ago I felt like I was slacking as member and that I needed to recommit myself for my family’s sake, so I re-immersed myself in LDS doctrine. Problem was…I started with Joseph Smith. Second problem was…I used the internet. It all fell apart from there and the final nail came when I listened to the recording of the Swedish Rescue meeting with Marlin Jensen and Rick Turley; I realized there were no good answers and no good explanations for anything that came from Joseph Smith. In August, I met with my Bishop to let him know we were done with the LDS church.

In the meantime, my wife and I were talking at one point and admitted to each other that growing up we both had always a mysterious draw to the Catholic church. We decided to find out more, so I found this forum in March, read the catechism over the summer, watched as many RCIA videos as I could find on youtube, and started going to Mass a month ago. RCIA here started a couple weeks ago, so I guess we have about 6 months to go.

Taylor,

I started the thread below as a depository for ex-Mormon’s to share why they left their faith. Wonderful if you could add your testimony to the thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=773968

PnP

 

[iepuras]

Taylorf and iepuras,

I’m very happy for both of you that you are able to go through your conversion with your spouses (and presumably the rest of your immediate family). Of all the LDS-to-anything conversions stories I’ve read the hardest bit is always the ramifications for the family unit, as we all well understand why. Besides my issues in discerning between the Catholic and Orthodox churches, the next biggest hurdle is my family. If I were nothing but a childless (and wifeless) old man I’d at least stop going to church by now. But I’m an old man with too many damn children! 12 adult children, some 27 grandchildren and 4 great-grandchildren… all of whom are BIC Mormons.

I’m still a practicing LDS only because of my family, and most of all because of my wife whom the Good Lord will likely call home any day now. Even if Jesus Christ himself were to appear to me and say “What are you waiting for you fool!? Run to the nearest Catholic Church and get baptized today!” I haven’t the slightest idea how I’d break it to my family. I hope you two know that you’re very fortunate to have a partner going through this with you Please pray for me.

I’ll pray a rosary for you! It was very difficult to tell my parents (who were in the same ward as us) and siblings. I was very lucky with my husband.

My husband was a Mormon convert from Orthodoxy and didn’t really believe. He only stayed in the LDS church for me. When I decided I was done, I told my husband and all he said was “OK.” We talked about what church to go to and we decided on the Catholic Church. My husband is from eastern Europe and in his country, he often attended the Byzantine rite Catholic Church. It is common there for people to receive the sacraments in one church but attend the other. No one bats an eye about it. Because of this, my husband was more than happy to become Catholic because he really sees the Catholic and Orthodox churches as one church and my family prays that they will come back together some day. If you have a hard time discerning, you can always check out an Eastern Catholic Church.

My parents had a hard time when we told them. Things even got so bad that we didn’t talk to them for over a month. They live close to us so this was a huge deal. My sister was supportive and told my parents to stop playing the victim and things are a lot better now. My parents even attended the baptism of our children. This was huge. My mom is having an easier time with it because she converted to the LDS church at age 14. My dad is struggling in silence. My siblings were more accepting. They may not be happy with our decision, but they are at least respecting us. When I broke the news to my family, I just told them that I studied the history and founding of the LDS church and could no longer accept Joseph Smith as a prophet. My parents were the only family members to ask why and we told them. We haven’t discussed it since.

I was afraid to tell my parents, but my husband told me that I just needed to do it. I know others that have had a much harder time. We were extraordinarily blessed that my family has figured out that the family relationship is more important than getting upset over what churh we attend. We have some friends in RCIA who left the Baptist faith to become Catholic and they are having a harder time with their families than we are.

All I can say is to pray and discern when the right time to tell your family is. You may be surprised to find that some of your family members may have doubts and need to know that it’s ok to question and leave. So far, I am the only one among my siblings but maybe someday they will study and learn and know that it is ok to leave because I already did.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And he rented out rooms to use as income?

Did he meet any of his future spouses this way??

Yes, his first plural wife, 16 year old Fanny Alger, was boarding at the Smith home at the time of her secret marriage to JS jr. When Emma found out their relationship, she drove the girl out.

Other relationships came from boarders in the Smith home, or from the Smith’s staying as guests in the home of others.

 

[TexanKnight]

Yes, his first plural wife, 16 year old Fanny Alger, was boarding at the Smith home at the time of her secret marriage to JS jr. When Emma found out their relationship, she drove the girl out.

Other relationships came from boarders in the Smith home, or from the Smith’s staying as guests in the home of others.

Fanny was the whole reason he came up with plural marriage. He needed an excuse for his adultery

 

[taylorf]

If “the source of…grace” is in “the atoning sacrifice of Jesus,” there seems to be something of a gap between the source of this grace and what it had the power to effect.

Let me explain…

The sacrifice of Jesus must somehow have created the power of grace in itself or the sacrifice must have been the means by which grace was transmitted from a higher source, say the Heavenly Father.

If grace was originally sourced in the sacrifice of Jesus, that is a problem for Mormon theology, since the Heavenly Father began as a mortal human who transformed into God the Father. By what power (grace?) did this transformation take place? It seems a classic case of less becoming more if the grace to transform from human to divine status only came about with the sacrifice of Jesus.

Yet if the source of grace was in the Father, by what power did the original mortal form of the Heavenly Father become divine? If, by grace, then it could not have been sourced in Jesus’ sacrifice.

There seem to be large issues in Mormon theology with how lesser beings can become greater beings. Ostensibly, by grace, but there seem to be problems with the chronology or transmission of grace given the original limited physicality of human persons who have transformed into Gods.

Putting my Mormon hat back on…

God is the source of all grace, and the sanctifying grace necessary for salvation (exaltation) is made available through the atonement of Christ (only after all that we can do), which was established at the council in heaven. Assuming God was once a sinful man, God attained to Godhood through the grace received from his God through a similar atonement of a different savior. Although, I was taught in a BYU Book of Mormon class that our current God was actually the savior of his own planet and people, and in fact, was not a sinless man. However, this would mean that God is God the Father for us but Son of God in another Godhead for another planet. This interpretation was all based on Jesus saying, “if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.”

In any case, it appears grace is handed down from God to God.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Ah, but how did the very first god become a god? There had to have been a first.

 

[taylorf]

Welcome to CAF, and welcome to RCIA, and soon (Easter 2014) WELCOME HOME!!!

Thanks for sharing your story. I’m not sure, but, I think I’ve read it recently on another forum.

Welcome home!!
I too had this mysterious draw to the Catholic Church growing up

Wonderful Taylor! Welcome Home.

Would you mind sharing more about your mission trip? Were there any theological moments of doubt as you met people and they share their faith with you? Were there specific questions asked of you which you felt that you did not have a good answer for?

Curious,

PnP

Thanks. I never really understood what “welcome home” meant when I first came to the forums, but now I’m beginning to see the meaning. It actually does feel like coming home.

Porknpie - I’ll share my mission experience in the ex-mormon thread.

 

[taylorf]

Ah, but how did the very first god become a god? There had to have been a first.

Easy…there is no beginning.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Ah, but how did the very first god become a god? There had to have been a first.

An infinite regress of gods, perhaps?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Ah, but how did the very first god become a god? There had to have been a first.

This is the hill which Mormonism should die on, but it won’t.
Mormon’s hold that there NEVER WAS A FIRST GOD!!!
The LDS Church calls that the “Everlasting Mystery.”

It was God before God before God, ALL the way back into Eternity, never beginning.

And what do we call that Mormons? POH-LEE-THEE-IH-SM, Polytheism.

 

[taylorf]

Taylorf and iepuras,

I’m very happy for both of you that you are able to go through your conversion with your spouses (and presumably the rest of your immediate family). Of all the LDS-to-anything conversions stories I’ve read the hardest bit is always the ramifications for the family unit, as we all well understand why. Besides my issues in discerning between the Catholic and Orthodox churches, the next biggest hurdle is my family. If I were nothing but a childless (and wifeless) old man I’d at least stop going to church by now. But I’m an old man with too many damn children! 12 adult children, some 27 grandchildren and 4 great-grandchildren… all of whom are BIC Mormons.

I’m still a practicing LDS only because of my family, and most of all because of my wife whom the Good Lord will likely call home any day now. Even if Jesus Christ himself were to appear to me and say “What are you waiting for you fool!? Run to the nearest Catholic Church and get baptized today!” I haven’t the slightest idea how I’d break it to my family. I hope you two know that you’re very fortunate to have a partner going through this with you Please pray for me.

You’ve got a prayer from me every day until you find your way home! Indeed, I am lucky that my wife and I are at this point together. Unfortunately, there are too many stories where spouses are encouraged by LDS leaders to leave a marriage and take the kids when the other spouse no longer believes - even if the marriage is an otherwise healthy marriage.

We have three kids and the oldest is now 8; I always knew that my daughter’s baptism was going to be the line in the sand where I had to make a decision. After we realized that Mormonism wasn’t for us, it took us a long time to figure out how to proceed. For us, it came down to different options. One, continue to remain active, protect the family/friend relationships, but live a lie. Or two, leave the church and live a life according to what we find is right, but potentially destroy close relationships. In the end, the decision to leave the church was based on the fact that we only get one life to live, and we weren’t going to waste it trying to please Mormon family and friends.

I prepared for the worst, but my family let us know that relationships aren’t worth sacrificing based on the religion we choose to live. On the other hand, my wife’s parents basically threw her out of the house when she told them; it was extremely devastating to her. Since then, they’ve come around to accepting the fact that we’re never going back, and after several conversations, have also agreed it’s not worth sacrificing family relationships.

They know we’re in RCIA, but I’m not sure they know what exactly that means. However, they don’t know that my daughter is in religious education, so I know we’ll go through another hard time when we let them know about our baptism into the Catholic church. It will be even more painful for my father because he unfortunately bought into McConkie’s teaching that the Catholic church is the “whore of the earth.” Despite all that, we know what we’re doing is right.

God bless you on your journey, and I pray that He finds a way for you to break loose with continued love and support from your family.