The Old Catholic Church

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I have a friend who is my bible study teacher as well as a priest in the Old Catholic Church. (Antioch See) I have gone to Mass at Father Art’s home and we all gather around his table for Mass. It is important to note that Father Art has full Apostolic Succession to Saint Peter. When we have Mass we do the readings for that day. Sometimes I am asked to read one of the Episles. When all the readings are finished Father Art askes the folks gathered around for their opinions on the readings. It is wonderful and warm to be able to share with from four to ten other people in attendance.
Because of his Apostolic Succession I know that I have always fulfuled my Sunday or Holy Day obligation when I go to Mass at Father Art’s place.
After Mass the fellowship is warm and friendly and I depart feeling warmer than when I have attended Mass in a Roman Catholic Church. John Weiss [mod note: edited to remove e-mail address - member can be contacted thru the e-mail link in his profile]
 
John Weiss:
I have a friend who is my bible study teacher as well as a priest in the Old Catholic Church. (Antioch See) I have gone to Mass at Father Art’s home and we all gather around his table for Mass. It is important to note that Father Art has full Apostolic Succession to Saint Peter. When we have Mass we do the readings for that day. Sometimes I am asked to read one of the Episles. When all the readings are finished Father Art askes the folks gathered around for their opinions on the readings. It is wonderful and warm to be able to share with from four to ten other people in attendance.
Because of his Apostolic Succession I know that I have always fulfuled my Sunday or Holy Day obligation when I go to Mass at Father Art’s place.
After Mass the fellowship is warm and friendly and I depart feeling warmer than when I have attended Mass in a Roman Catholic Church. John Weiss johnweisshome@aol.com
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John,
Just because your priest friend has Apostolic Succession does not mean that your Sunday obligation has been met. His Mass may be valid but is not licit. It would be the same as going to an Orthodox church that was not in union with Rome. Another point I would make is that warm feelings, as nice as they are is not why we go to Mass. We go to worship and give thanks to our Creator! Just my 2 cents. God Bless, Mike
 
John Weiss:
I have a friend who is my bible study teacher as well as a priest in the Old Catholic Church. (Antioch See) I have gone to Mass at Father Art’s home and we all gather around his table for Mass. It is important to note that Father Art has full Apostolic Succession to Saint Peter. When we have Mass we do the readings for that day. Sometimes I am asked to read one of the Episles. When all the readings are finished Father Art askes the folks gathered around for their opinions on the readings. It is wonderful and warm to be able to share with from four to ten other people in attendance.
Because of his Apostolic Succession I know that I have always fulfuled my Sunday or Holy Day obligation when I go to Mass at Father Art’s place.
After Mass the fellowship is warm and friendly and I depart feeling warmer than when I have attended Mass in a Roman Catholic Church. John Weiss [mod note: edited to remove e-mail address - member can be contacted thru the e-mail link in his profile]
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Hi John -

I’m afraid that I must agree with Mike, the previous poster. The mass you attend may be valid, but is not licit. It does not meet with the Sunday requirement.

That said, It is a wonderful thing to share our faith in fellowship with others. I don’t see why you can’t continue attending these meetings. It is my opinion that we all should be well fed, spiritually.

Subrosa
 
John Weiss:
I have a friend who is my bible study teacher as well as a priest in the Old Catholic Church. (Antioch See) I have gone to Mass at Father Art’s home and we all gather around his table for Mass. It is important to note that Father Art has full Apostolic Succession to Saint Peter. When we have Mass we do the readings for that day. Sometimes I am asked to read one of the Episles. When all the readings are finished Father Art askes the folks gathered around for their opinions on the readings. It is wonderful and warm to be able to share with from four to ten other people in attendance.
Because of his Apostolic Succession I know that I have always fulfuled my Sunday or Holy Day obligation when I go to Mass at Father Art’s place.
After Mass the fellowship is warm and friendly and I depart feeling warmer than when I have attended Mass in a Roman Catholic Church. John Weiss [mod note: edited to remove e-mail address - member can be contacted thru the e-mail link in his profile]
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I wouldn’t take for granted that his ordination has true apostolic succession. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t. However, even if he does, Eastern Orthodox also have true apostolic succession, but they are not in full communion with the Roman Pontiff. Neither are the Old Catholics. In fact, the Old Catholics *heretically *reject the dogma of papal infallibility. (see more here: Catholic Encyclopedia - Old Catholics)

See also Heretical or Schismatic Ministers
The care of all those sacred rites has been given to the Church of Christ. Heretical or schismatical ministers can administer the sacraments validly if they have valid Orders, but their ministrations are sinful (see Billot, op.cit., thesis 16). Good faith [ie. invincible ignorance] would excuse the recipients from sin, and in cases of necessity the Church grants jurisdiction necessary for Penance and Extreme Unction

Catholic Encyclopedia - Sacraments
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Furthermore, according to another source by Msgr. Ronald Knox called *The Church on Earth - The Nature and Authority of the Catholic Church, and the Place of the Pope Within it *(1929):
… no one who understands Catholic theology could consent for a moment to minister, however valid his ordination, to souls which had not been committed to his charge by a bishop in communion with the Holy See.

…The Church, then, involves a hierarchy, not merely in the sense that one functionary is superior to another in dignity, but in the sense that each functionary derives from a superior his commission to act in the Church’s name. Without that commission, all other qualifications would be useless.
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For Catholics, receiving the Sacraments from an Old Catholic priest who is not in full communion with the Roman Pontiff is contrary to Catholic canon law.
Can. 844 §1 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments only to catholic members of Christ’s faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from catholic ministers, except as provided in §§2, 3 and 4 of this canon and in can. 861 §2.

§2 Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ’s faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid…

§5 In respect of the cases dealt with in §§2, 3 and 4, the diocesan Bishop or the Episcopal Conference is not to issue general norms except after consultation with the competent authority, at least at the local level, of the non-catholic Church or community concerned.
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“I feel warmer” is hardly an excuse to violate canon law.
 
Dear Friends: When Saint Peter sent his followers out, he sent them to Rome, Constantaople, Antioch, Athens, Alexandria and many other places.
Jesus said to Peter:“Thou are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” Over the years we find many Catholic Churches. I have asked a Franciscan and was told that while my friend’s Apostolic Succession is valid it would be better that I go to Mass at a Roman Church.
When at Mass in the Old Catholic Church we have fewer folks and we each contribute to our version of the readings. We all learn from one another.
Yes, the Old Catholic Church is in schism with Rome. Please remember that there were Old Catholic Preists in attendance when Pope Benedict XVI was installed. The gap is beginning to close. JOHN WEISS
 
John Weiss:
I have a friend who is my bible study teacher as well as a priest in the Old Catholic Church. (Antioch See) I have gone to Mass at Father Art’s home and we all gather around his table for Mass. It is important to note that Father Art has full Apostolic Succession to Saint Peter. When we have Mass we do the readings for that day. Sometimes I am asked to read one of the Episles. When all the readings are finished Father Art askes the folks gathered around for their opinions on the readings. It is wonderful and warm to be able to share with from four to ten other people in attendance.
Because of his Apostolic Succession I know that I have always fulfuled my Sunday or Holy Day obligation when I go to Mass at Father Art’s place.
After Mass the fellowship is warm and friendly and I depart feeling warmer than when I have attended Mass in a Roman Catholic Church. John Weiss [mod note: edited to remove e-mail address - member can be contacted thru the e-mail link in his profile]
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So you are trading emotion(feeling warmer) for TRUTH? The Mass you attended is not licit-it does not fullfill you Sunday Obligation. If this Priest is truly your friend he should not be leading you into Mortal Sin.
 
Hi John,

Pretty much everyone keeps telling you the same thing. Some say it nicer than others. Since the candy coating of niceness seems to get in your way, I’ll state it much plainer.

How long are you going to imperil your immortal soul in order to “feel” better?

You have a problem with authority. You fail to understand that your contrubution and worth at Mass is your heartfelt worship of Christ and not your opinion on the readings or the fuzzy feeling you get after you leave.

I pray you will get on your knees, (with a priest in communion with Rome) and ask God for forgiveness for your pride in thinking you know better than the Church He founded before you find yourself “feeling” the pain of Hell.

God Bless,
Maria
 
John Weiss:
Please remember that there were Old Catholic Preists in attendance when Pope Benedict XVI was installed.
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Yes, but Old Catholics were not administering the Sacraments. It appears that you know full well that what you are doing is sinfully contrary to canon law, yet you deliberately choose to disobey the lawful pastors of the Catholic Church just the same. What is your purpose in posting here? Where you hoping to find some sympathy for your sinful participation in schism? When that “gap” closes, and they no longer are in schism, than receiving the Sacraments from them will no longer be sinful. Until then, may God have mercy upon your soul.
 
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MariaG:
Hi John,

Pretty much everyone keeps telling you the same thing. Some say it nicer than others. Since the candy coating of niceness seems to get in your way, I’ll state it much plainer.

How long are you going to imperil your immortal soul in order to “feel” better?

You have a problem with authority. You fail to understand that your contrubution and worth at Mass is your heartfelt worship of Christ and not your opinion on the readings or the fuzzy feeling you get after you leave.

I pray you will get on your knees, (with a priest in communion with Rome) and ask God for forgiveness for your pride in thinking you know better than the Church He founded before you find yourself “feeling” the pain of Hell.

God Bless,
Maria
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(REPLY) Dear Maria: Inside the missal in the Roman Catholic Church I attend are these words: “Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Polish National Catholic Churchare urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches.
According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Cannon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches.” Cannon 844 ~ 3
It might interest you to know that The Polish National Church in Scranton, Pennsylvania had been working with former Bishop James C. Timlin (Diocese of Scranton) and are talking with Bishop Joseph Martino. (Diocese of Scranton)
The Old Catholic Church cannot be far behind. John Weiss
johnweisshome@aol.com
 
quote=John Weiss Dear Maria: Inside the missal in the Roman Catholic Church I attend are these words: “Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Polish National Catholic Churchare urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches.
According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Cannon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches.” Cannon 844 ~ 3
It might interest you to know that The Polish National Church in Scranton, Pennsylvania had been working with former Bishop James C. Timlin (Diocese of Scranton) and are talking with Bishop Joseph Martino. (Diocese of Scranton)
The Old Catholic Church cannot be far behind. John Weiss
johnweisshome@aol.com
[/quote]

They may receive from us, that doesn’t mean you can freely receive from them except in very specific circumstances. You are very definately violating the Catholic Church in your practice, the Catholic Church established by Christ.

Peace and God bless!
 
quote=John Weiss Dear Maria: Inside the missal in the Roman Catholic Church I attend are these words: “Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Polish National Catholic Churchare urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches.
According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Cannon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches.” Cannon 844 ~ 3
It might interest you to know that The Polish National Church in Scranton, Pennsylvania had been working with former Bishop James C. Timlin (Diocese of Scranton) and are talking with Bishop Joseph Martino. (Diocese of Scranton)
The Old Catholic Church cannot be far behind. John Weiss
johnweisshome@aol.com
[/quote]

As already pointed out John, they are not yet there.

Until then, you are simply defying authority in order to feel better.

May God have mercy on your soul.
 
Peace be with you!

There are several different schismatic churches that call themselves “The Old Catholic Church”. At least one of these ordains women so your particular church may not even have a valid apostolic succession.

Catholics who are in schism (such as the Orthodox) may recieve communion at a Catholic church provided they cannot make it to one of their own and they are supposed to recieve permission from their bishop and the Catholic bishop to do so. Same goes the other way around. If I could not make it to Mass some Sunday because there was no church close enough, I could attend a Divine Liturgy and recieve communion there if I recieved permission (which, more often than not, wouldn’t be granted). What you are doing is simply choosing to go to an illicit Mass rather than a licit one. That is gravely sinful and I would recommend you pray long and hard before going to one of those Masses agian.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Warm and fuzzy is ok, but it is DEVOTION to the Church our Lord estabished on this earth that is much more important than warm and fuzzy.
Remember, our Lord established the Catholic Church, thus He is the Head of the Catholic Church, thus being devoted to the Catholic Church, means being devoted to our Lord our God.

Peace of Christ be upon you.
 
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