The Old Testament God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ocuinn
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
O

ocuinn

Guest
When someone asks you to explain why the God of the Old Testament ordered raping, murder and pillaging how do you answer them? How can draw similarities between the God of the Old testament and the God of the New Testament without explaining the distict differences?

AP Quinn
 
Hi Ap,

Tt is possibly meritorious to find pious explanations for bible passages we find difficult to understand. But, in modern times the Popes, notably Pius XII, have encouraged scholars to study the social life and mentality of the anciens, as well as the literary types that they used.

To summarize, the Old Testament is dominated by the idea that God is leading his people in every one of its collective endeavors. So that whenever they do something that is part of their culture, it is attributed to God even though it has not been ordered by God. The practice of anathema or ban was an integral part of Middle Eastern culture. The local god was seen as leading the armies in battle against the infidels, who were to be collectively destroyed for their collective corruption by the worship of other gods.
For the ancient Semites war a was a religious exercise, fought under their god’s direction for the extension of his dominion, and captives and spoils were in the first place at the god’s disposal; if odious to him, they must be destroyed (…) Mesha, king of Moab in the 9th cent. B.C., records of his successful expedition against the Israelite city of Nebo: ’ I captured it and killed (them) all, 7,000 men and women, boys and girls, for I had made them anathema to Astarte-Chemosh.
Click to expand...
Orchard, Bernard, ed. A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture. Thomas Nelson & Sons, [1951], p. 263.

The whole point of the Old Testament is to show that God guides their destiny until they bring forth the Messiah. That is why every major decision is attributed to God. That does not mean that God actually “ordered” the massacres.

If we read everything in scripture as if it had been written in Time magazine, there are huge problems. But if we read each book of the Bible within the context of the times, things are very different.

Verbum
 
God does not judge the same way we do.

The God of anger and wrath of the Old Testament, and the God of love and mercy of the New Testament, are the exact same God.

Some people would not know pure love if they looked at it in the face. If they fight against love or against the Holy Spirit they might experience pain.

Then again, passion can be either of pain or pleasure, depending on whether and by what criteria the person experiencing passion judges these feelings. Circumstances influence our perception as such, but to not dictate our conclusions. Thus, I wonder if Christ was able to take all the pain and suffering, and actually experience it as love and intimacy as the people literally claimed pieces of Him because they were so attracted to Him and passionate about Him that they didn’t know how else to get that close but through anger and violence – about the only known way of expressing strong feelings at the time. I think sometimes one way domestic violence comes about is from passionate love or desire corrupted by fear, doubt, and confusion.

Alan
 
Verbum said:
Hi Ap,

Tt is possibly meritorious to find pious explanations for bible passages we find difficult to understand. But, in modern times the Popes, notably Pius XII, have encouraged scholars to study the social life and mentality of the anciens, as well as the literary types that they used.

To summarize, the Old Testament is dominated by the idea that God is leading his people in every one of its collective endeavors. So that whenever they do something that is part of their culture, it is attributed to God even though it has not been ordered by God. The practice of anathema or ban was an integral part of Middle Eastern culture. The local god was seen as leading the armies in battle against the infidels, who were to be collectively destroyed for their collective corruption by the worship of other gods.

Orchard, Bernard, ed. A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture. Thomas Nelson & Sons, [1951], p. 263.

The whole point of the Old Testament is to show that God guides their destiny until they bring forth the Messiah. That is why every major decision is attributed to God. That does not mean that God actually “ordered” the massacres.

If we read everything in scripture as if it had been written in Time magazine, there are huge problems. But if we read each book of the Bible within the context of the times, things are very different.

Verbum
Click to expand...
That’s the whole point viewed in hindsight through a Christain lens. It was not anything close to the point when viewed from a Jewish perspective.
 
Wow; can NOBODY do better than what’s posted so far?

There is NO way one can assert that the commands from God in the OT are nothing but made-up fairly tails of the ancient Jews but the NT is the true and inerrant Word of God. Doesn’t work for a second - only partly because Christ repeatedly quoted the OT as authentic, and not just in a super-high-level, general sense.

A lot has been written on this topic. For one thing, there is plenty of love from God in the OT and plenty of judgement and death as well in the NT! The differences have been exaggerated by many.

God does NOT order anyone to “rape” in the OT, ever. I do agree that the commands to carry out genocide against the conquered peoples is the single hardest thing to accept and understand in all of Scripture, though. This is a help: death is not the end. These people were rushed to the afterlife, yes, but if the afterlife is good, what is death? God is the master of life and death; if you cannot fathom God taking children, you should be an athiest, because innocent children die every day.
 
Paul_Folbrecht said:
Wow; can NOBODY do better than what’s posted so far?

There is NO way one can assert that the commands from God in the OT are nothing but made-up fairly tails of the ancient Jews but the NT is the true and inerrant Word of God. Doesn’t work for a second - only partly because Christ repeatedly quoted the OT as authentic, and not just in a super-high-level, general sense.

A lot has been written on this topic. For one thing, there is plenty of love from God in the OT and plenty of judgement and death as well in the NT! The differences have been exaggerated by many.

God does NOT order anyone to “rape” in the OT, ever. I do agree that the commands to carry out genocide against the conquered peoples is the single hardest thing to accept and understand in all of Scripture, though. This is a help: death is not the end. These people were rushed to the afterlife, yes, but if the afterlife is good, what is death? God is the master of life and death; if you cannot fathom God taking children, you should be an athiest, because innocent children die every day.
Click to expand...
The Torah takes into account the realities of warfare in biblical times. And while it is harsh, it is the way things were. Torah recognizes human failings and does its best to address them. Look at the laws of slavery. They were designed to ensure better treatment for the oppressed, not to validate the practice.
 
I have made these comments below in another thread.
O.T. Theologies of God.

First & foremost, we must remember that Scriptures has God as the Author inspiring man as the human author to record His message; yet utilizing the human faculties of their understanding of the world and about Him at such time of writing.- still - the beauty of it all - when correctly understood in the context of the writing - the Spiritual message is clear.

(Rememhber, God did NOT whisper at the ear of the human author; But rather, allowed man to use his full faculties, in his reflections/meditations to write…yet PROTECTING it for errors - This is unlike the "Koran’ , which their believers assert is a DICTATION from the angel Gabriel to Mohammad, the Prophet of God.)

There are several “Myths” in Scripture NOT “fmyths as in airy tales” BUT Man’s attempts (the finite creature) to describe the INFINITE GOD (its Creator)- which is undiscribable in human words.

fr the book by Dr Margaret Nutting Ralph “And God said What…”)

Revelation of God is a PROCESS over time…
That God is ‘love’ (agapao)
In the O.T. especially in the Book of Deuteronomy, God is depicted Not as Father but as the ONE GOD who is a JUDGE and GIVER OF LAWS with a covenanted people ISRAEL .

A Transendant,God creates all but choose and love Israel to save.​

There is no Salvation for those other than the Jewish people (the chosen people.)

That the mystery of suffering has its purpose other than sin.

Next, The idea of Hell
]In the O.T. the idea of hell is not understood until 300-400 years before the coming of Jesus

Also, They did not believe in an afterlife.

Later a few liberal Jewish people began to believe that ‘some’good Gentiles may be saved with the Jews.

About 200 years before Jesus, Jews began to believe that all will rise from the dead.

The question of Judgement & hell began to a question.to arise.To under ‘heaven’ one has to compare with ‘hell’. That is how it all began. (e.g. To understand light, compare it with darkness, good, compare with evil etc)

Hence, if only we can find - unfortunately I cannot…
A Chart showing
Each Book of the O.T. (this is easy)
Approximate date of develoement ( this is approximate)
Understanding of God /Afterlife / Hell etc at the time of writing…

will rationalize why the literal texts of the books were written the way they are…(this is the tough one) Any takers ???

God Bless
 
Here’s something I wrote a long time ago at my blog, The Banana Republican:
Regarding the slaughter of the Canaanites, the Canaanites were far from “innocent.” Canaanite religious practices included child sacrifice, bestiality, incest, male and female prostitution, and homosexuality. Genesis 15:16 indicates that God would not destroy the Canaanites until their guilt called for their complete destruction in judgment. The Canaanites were given more than 400 years to repent. God is the sovereign Creator of all life [Deut 32:39]. God would be bringing the Canaanite babies into Heaven if children who die prior to reaching the age of accountability go to Heaven. The Canaanite children would have inevitably become like their wicked parents in that corrupt society.
Click to expand...
I hope this is an accurate response on that particular issue.

In Christ,
WRH
 
richardeekw said:
I have made these comments below in another thread.
O.T. Theologies of God.

(Rememhber, God did NOT whisper at the ear of the human author; But rather, allowed man to use his full faculties, in his reflections/meditations to write…yet PROTECTING it for errors - This is unlike the "Koran’ , which their believers assert is a DICTATION from the angel Gabriel to Mohammad, the Prophet of God.)

…Also, They did not believe in an afterlife.

Later a few liberal Jewish people began to believe that ‘some’good Gentiles may be saved with the Jews.

About 200 years before Jesus, Jews began to believe that all will rise from the dead.

The question of Judgement & hell began to a question.to arise.To under ‘heaven’ one has to compare with ‘hell’. That is how it all began. (e.g. To understand light, compare it with darkness, good, compare with evil etc)
Click to expand...
There are plenty of Jews who believe God dictated Torah to Moses as well. Personally, I’m on the same page as you on this and like what you had to say re “myths”.

As for an afterlife, I’d disagree that it was a late (relatively) part of Jewish theology. There are examples in Genesis and it is discussed in Talmud, which we believe was given to Moses at Sinai. However, there’s not much dogma as to what the afterlife is and so you have a lot of viewpoints on this topic within the jewish community.
 
StRaphael said:
Here’s something I wrote a long time ago at my blog, The Banana Republican:

I hope this is an accurate response on that particular issue.

In Christ,
WRH
Click to expand...
There are really two ways of looking at sin in the Torah (at least). There are personal sins and national sins. When a people’s behavior is such that it rises to the level of a “national” sin, the people, as a nation are punished and the good along with the wicked suffer. This is why things like idol worship were punished so harshly. They did not just effect the individual but could bring harm to the entire community.
 
Valke2 said:
Look at the laws of slavery. They were designed to ensure better treatment for the oppressed, not to validate the practice.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Killing a slave (who was to be treated as a regular worker and not like cattle according to Lev 25:39-43) was punishable [Ex 21:20], runaway slaves were for all intents and purposes free [Dt 23:15-16], permanently injured slaves were emancipated [Ex 21:26-27], and all slaves were freed anyway after six years of service [Ex 21:2; Dt 15:12] or every 50th year [Lev 25:10,47-54]. When slaves were freed they were given ample grain, wine, and livestock [Dt 15:12-15]. If a wife was neglected she was automatically freed [Ex 21:10-11]. Gentiles were to be treated and loved the same way as Israelites [Lev 19:33-34]. The list goes on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top