The Old Testament - is it for REAL?

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As for Slavery, Slavery in Hebrew times is not as it was in 19th century America. Slaves were apart of the family and after several years of service they were given 10-15% of the property or something like that.
Thats very interesting could you please share your source so I can read more i never knew slaves were given any ownership of their masters property unless there was no child (either natural or begotten by choice) to inherit? I also understood the entire estate was passed on including the responsibility for the house, other slaves included.

Bless you pray well and stay well
 
How much of the Old Testament are you supposed to believe in, word per word?

Are we supposed to believe that Noah built an ark and crammed each gender of every animal in the world into that ark while the world flooded?

Are we supposed to believe that Jonah was in a whale’s mouth for days and then got spit back out alive?

Are we supposed to believe in the tower of babel, the ten plagues, the pillar of salt… etc etc?

And if these things didn’t actually happen, did the people involved even exist?
In order to answer your question I will use the story of Yonah (Jonah). This short book of only 4 chapters is not a story about a whale. If we examine this story in the Jewish scriptures, we see that it is the story of a Jewish prophet being sent by God to a relatively distant place in connection to the redemption of a non Jewish city. Encapsulated here is the Jewish concept of the one universal God. We are shown that God is the God of all people, Jews and Gentiles alike, that God isn’t limited to the confines of the geographical area of the land of Israel, that redemption is open to all whether Jew or Gentile.
 
In order to answer your question I will use the story of Yonah (Jonah). This short book of only 4 chapters is not a story about a whale. If we examine this story in the Jewish scriptures, we see that it is the story of a Jewish prophet being sent by God to a relatively distant place in connection to the redemption of a non Jewish city. Encapsulated here is the Jewish concept of the one universal God. We are shown that God is the God of all people, Jews and Gentiles alike, that God isn’t limited to the confines of the geographical area of the land of Israel, that redemption is open to all whether Jew or Gentile.
Yes, this is an excellent example of what the Catholic Church means when it says that Scripture inerrantly teaches what was meant to be taught. The story of Jonah is not meant to be a history lesson, or a lesson on the nature of whales–it is meant to be a lesson on the nature of God and His relationship with mankind. The lesson on the nature of God is to be relied on as correct, but the text is not about history or whales and the Church does not teach that a Catholic must (or even necessarily should) take Jonah as accurate history or biology.
 
Thats very interesting could you please share your source so I can read more i never knew slaves were given any ownership of their masters property unless there was no child (either natural or begotten by choice) to inherit? I also understood the entire estate was passed on including the responsibility for the house, other slaves included.

Bless you pray well and stay well
Actually from what I have read it appears that “slavery” was a type of oath that was taken that was almost like a contract. A person was basically pledging their service to their master before God for so many years. I believe it was somewhat similar to indentured servitude.
 
Depends, the OT is not just one book but a collection of books with different authors, literary styles and purposes. So something like the Genesis creation account should not be taken literally while say Maccabbees generally should be.

You need to see how the particular part of the OT compares to history,science,archaeology and the findings of textual criticism
This is my sentiment on the matter. As a collection of works, the OT is not simply a history text or monolithic in genre but a diverse collective work of revelation.
 
Pfaffenhoffen,

These certainly are not from the Magisterial Teaching of the Catholic Church. I know the question is hard to answer, because well the way I framed it, one is very hard pressed to find this premise that is supported in the Magisterial Teaching of the Church.

If it is ever declared to be a De Fide doctrine that is solemnly promulgated by the Catholic Church that “None of the Old Testament is historical” may I have the grace to believe it. Until that happens, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Again respectfully, in keeping with the question’s orginal intent, can you point me to Magisterial Teaching that would support your premise?

God bless.
My Lady, sorry, but you seem to sit in a couch and expect someone to bring you the dishes. You did not even had the cordiality of seeing what I painstakingly gathered for you. You just threw out with your “Magisterial Teaching of the Church” as if this means something (the Pope? ex cathedra? just a bishop remark? a Pope remark? an encyclica?). It is not nice, I tell you.

I did not say “None of the Old Testament is historical” and maybe you are the only one framing it that way and i do not know on what purpose. King David existed, the Maccabees too, Isaiah and the Prophets too, and so on.

But if you want to get up and read for instance the Dei Verbum you will gather something about “literary forms”. But maybe for you the Vatican II is not “Magisterial Teaching of the Church”…

Sorry, no patience. If you want to believe that Adam and Eve existed, that the Deluge is true and Noah’s Ark is in the Sinai and that he had sexual relations with his daughters so that the world would not end, go ahead.

It is because of opinions like these that scientists and intellectuals think that Christians (all we pay for that !) believe in crazy ideas.

For me, I have had it. I like to help but I do not like when I help people who do not want to be helped.

And I do not want to win discussion. I have not patience for arguments that lead nowhere. I surrender.

Good Luck and God Bless you.
 
Thats very interesting could you please share your source so I can read more i never knew slaves were given any ownership of their masters property unless there was no child (either natural or begotten by choice) to inherit? I also understood the entire estate was passed on including the responsibility for the house, other slaves included.

Bless you pray well and stay well
Actually from what I have read it appears that “slavery” was a type of oath that was taken that was almost like a contract. A person was basically pledging their service to their master before God for so many years. I believe it was somewhat similar to indentured servitude.
Jewish slaves and foreign slaves were treated differently. Jewish slavery was conditional (6 years).

Foreign slaves are more in line with our modern concept of slavery - people like to white wash slavery in the OT but it was the social norm of the A.N.E. - It was different times.

Leviticus 25 -
43
Do not lord it over them harshly, but stand in fear of your God.
44
"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you buy them from among the neighboring nations.
45
You may also buy them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves you may own as chattels,
46
and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen.
 
How much of the Old Testament are you supposed to believe in, word per word?

Are we supposed to believe that Noah built an ark and crammed each gender of every animal in the world into that ark while the world flooded?

Are we supposed to believe that Jonah was in a whale’s mouth for days and then got spit back out alive?

Are we supposed to believe in the tower of babel, the ten plagues, the pillar of salt… etc etc?

And if these things didn’t actually happen, did the people involved even exist?
Peace and blessings Sister,
what are we supposed to believe? I think the answer is you are not supposed to believe the OT either way as we are all of Free Will.

In that light we ask what do you believe? rather than this is what your supposed to believe.

I realise that does state the obvious but it if we underpin our relationships with other believers this way we will have greater unity.

Bible literalists of old maybe hung on Isaiah 40:22 (circle) and said the world was flat where the literalists of today hang the same scripture proves the world is a globe despite that in Isaiah some lines earlier their is reference to a (ball). Missed in this is the writers did not have the understanding same as we do and the enormous difficulty of translation with same understanding.

Some need to see scripture as literal truth to hold faith others dont saying its metaphoric. For me faith in G-d is good for you either way provided you dont judge the other. By all means discern in ones self, share in love and at some stage in the future on some things we will see we had it right and on others we got it wrong.

But if we sought goodness from either position literal or metaphoric G-d will have brought forth goodness regardless to if we had it right or wrong.

He / She / It can do this, All powerful and All mighty, giving to those who seek good.

Bible literalists i doubt are very good at bringing forth non believing scientists as its a huge leap of faith, they may metaphorically prove belief in G-d is not for science minded.

Metaphoric die hard can at times literally shut literalists out of G-ds kingdom as beguiled to untruth.

I encourage people to read seeking what good message did this people of long ago want to leave for me so i would do good things and not need to learn for myself of the things not good to do.

From there G-d or The Holy Spirit can do the rest and peace will be amongst all the readers united in goodness for their time.

Soon all will be relieved and the kingdom will be given to the peace makers.

Bless you and yours for inviting good discussion.
 
This is my sentiment on the matter. As a collection of works, the OT is not simply a history text or monolithic in genre but a diverse collective work of revelation.
Yes, far too many people, believers and non-believers alike tend to see a false dichtomy where either everything in the Bible is literally true or it’s not and hence worthless.

Then there are a lot of Catholics and other Christians who vehemently deny historical findings which dispute the historicity of a particular story (or go to absurd lengths to reconcile them with history/science) - almost as if they equate the historicity or literal truth of a particular story with its worth - which is fallacious as Jesus’ parables did not really happen and yet they have as much ‘truth’ as anything else in the Bible.
 
Especially the story of Adam and Eve, which is contrary to what science has shown us about the origin of the world. Furthermore, as Catholics, we accept the theory of intelligent design as being a possibility. This would completely rule out the story of Adam and Eve as just being more of a symbolic thing than something that actually happened word per word. So if that story isn’t “literal,” than what else isn’t? I’m willing to bet most aren’t.
Like others have said, for the most part we are not bound by the Church to believe that everything in the OT represents historical fact. However, I’m pretty certain that we are bound to believe that Adam and Eve actually existed and that all humans today are their descendants. This does not mean that the Church teaches that all of Genesis represent literal historical fact - She doesn’t teach this.

I’m curious what you think science has shown us that is contrary to Adam and Eve having actually existed (sorry if I’m misunderstanding you here). To the contrary, science meshes perfectly with Adam and Eve existing. Scientists (who weren’t religious, to my knowledge) traced the mitochondrial DNA of different people from all around the world and it led to a single ancestor, whom they jokingly called “Mitochondrial Eve”. (just a reminder of high school biology: mitochondria are organelles within a cell which have their own DNA, and this DNA is inherited only from the mother)

God bless,
Chris
 
No, modern science does not prove that Adam & Eve actually existed (in fact the opposite is true)

Mitochondrial Eve is commonly misinterpreted as being Biblical Eve - this is not true, firstly Mitochondrial Eve is our Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) meaning every human alive today has genes from her - that does not mean that she is our oldest female ancestor as some people will have genes from women older than Mitochondrial Eve (nor was she the only woman alive at the time).

And anyway regardless of the scientific evidence, belief in a literal Adam & Eve is highly problematic based on reasoning alone. Namely, if you take parts of the Genesis Creation account to be allegorical (eg. creation of the world and animals) on what grounds do you decide that other parts (such as the Adam & Eve narrative) are historical? If there are no solid grounds for doing (other than just subjective preference) then the distinction is purely arbitrary and meaningless
 
Like others have said, for the most part we are not bound by the Church to believe that everything in the OT represents historical fact. However, I’m pretty certain that we are bound to believe that Adam and Eve actually existed and that all humans today are their descendants. This does not mean that the Church teaches that all of Genesis represent literal historical fact - She doesn’t teach this.

I’m curious what you think science has shown us that is contrary to Adam and Eve having actually existed (sorry if I’m misunderstanding you here). To the contrary, science meshes perfectly with Adam and Eve existing. Scientists (who weren’t religious, to my knowledge) traced the mitochondrial DNA of different people from all around the world and it led to a single ancestor, whom they jokingly called “Mitochondrial Eve”. (just a reminder of high school biology: mitochondria are organelles within a cell which have their own DNA, and this DNA is inherited only from the mother)

God bless,
Chris
There is a lot of evidence out there that we evolved from primates - there are skeletons of creatures that are somewhere between a human and a monkey, and those skeletons progress to looking more and more human like the younger they are.

Of course, I believe that at one point we became “human enough” and got souls. But I don’t believe that we all came from Adam and Eve, and I don’t think the Church requires us to believe that either.

Also, it is physically and mathematically impossible for there to be this many human beings on Earth if we all came from only 2 people 6,000 years ago, as Genesis says. So yes, there is plenty of evidence out there that trumps Genesis’ version of how the world came to be.

With that being said, I DO believe the message that the story is getting across - that God is the creator of all things, that God singled us out as the “masters” amongst all other creatures on Earth and gave us souls, and that humanity was given the choice to disobey God by sinning, which we did/do.

…I think that’s what Genesis is trying to get across. Not some story of a first man and a first women who saw a snake and ate an apple. :rolleyes:
 
I believe in a God who created the universe. I believe in a God who was incarnate. I believe in Jesus who was resurrected. I believe in the soul and its immortality. That being the case there is nothing difficult for me in the Old Testament. No doubt some of it is figurative and hyperbolic. But I have no need to dismiss literal interpretations of events because God’s power can achieve anything that would be deemed miraculous by modern man.

Jesus quoted from the Old Testament. So Jesus accepted its authority. The Old Testament foretold of Jesus and part of why we believe in Jesus is that a Messiah was foretold and Jesus was that Messiah. God choose a people to discipline in order that they might bring forth the Messiah. Christians at times have found the Old Testament difficult. But we must be very careful since without the Old Testament there is not the New.
Foreign slaves are more in line with our modern concept of slavery - people like to white wash slavery in the OT but it was the social norm of the A.N.E. - It was different times.
Indeed they do like to whitewash. A bigger problem is that the New Testament does not condemn slavery. In fact Paul sends a slave back to his master. Roman slavery was a very powerful form of slavery. Under it the master actually owned the life of the slave and could kill him. Other forms of slavery would demand work from the slave but the master did not own the slaves life and therefore could not, at his sole discretion, take it.
 
Also, it is physically and mathematically impossible for there to be this many human beings on Earth if we all came from only 2 people 6,000 years ago, as Genesis says.
Actually, this is not true. A 2% annual growth rate in population results in a population doubling period of roughly 35 years. This would mean there would be over 1 billion people in just over 1,000 years. At almost 1,200 years there would be over 16 billion human beings.
 
Pfaffenhoffen,
If you want to believe that Adam and Eve existed, that the Deluge is true and Noah’s Ark is in the Sinai and that he had sexual relations with his daughters so that the world would not end, go ahead.

It is because of opinions like these that scientists and intellectuals think that Christians (all we pay for that !) believe in crazy ideas.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church which Blessed Pope John Paul II said 'It is a sure norm for teaching the Catholic faith."
#375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”. 250 This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”. 251
250 - Council of Trent [1546]: DS 1511
251 - Cf. LG 2
#417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”.
#56 After the unity of the human race was shattered by sin God at once sought to save humanity part by part. The covenant with Noah after the flood gives expression to the principle of the divine economy toward the “nations”, in other words, towards men grouped “in their lands, each with [its] own language, by their families, in their nations”. 9
9 - Genesis 10:5, cf 9:9-10, 16; 10:20-31
#71 God made an everlasting covenant with Noah and with all living beings (cf. Gen 9:16). It will remain in force as long as the world lasts.
I like to help but I do not like when I help people who do not want to be helped.
My sentiments exactly. 🙂

God bless
 
The 6,000-year-old human race scenario is problematic, at best. If modern man is only 6,000 years old, then another race of beings must have inhabited this planet prior to that. The evidence is out there for anyone to see.

The underlying message of the Adam and Eve story, IMHO, it that it simply represents the man’s first awareness of the God we now worship. Any details of their existence are simply lost in the sands of time.
 
The 6,000-year-old human race scenario is problematic, at best. If modern man is only 6,000 years old, then another race of beings must have inhabited this planet prior to that. The evidence is out there for anyone to see.

The underlying message of the Adam and Eve story, IMHO, it that it simply represents the man’s first awareness of the God we now worship. Any details of their existence are simply lost in the sands of time.
I would agree and I do not believe the stance of the Church supports a 6,000 year old world.

As for Adam and Eve’s story, there is room for two embodied people being our spiritual progenitors even if biological propagation seems currently untenable. The Genesis account of their fall speaks to a spiritual fall from grace (an immaterial corruption) and not a mere biological dysfunction that needs physiological explanation.

Physics shows that when particles interact and then become separated, they share the same quantum states (e.g. spin, momentum, position, etc…), a phenomena known as quantum entanglement. This is a well documentated effect in the realm of quantum physics.

In a similar manner, the fall from grace by Adam and Eve similarly interacts negatively with the spiritual state of other people would are in the process of securing their spiritual realization, which in turn is forever propagated to the rest human race. Hence, we inherit Original Sin from Adam and Eve, our spiritual forerunners.

A requisite for biological lineage is not only unnecessary but contrary to the point being made.
 
Actually, this is not true. A 2% annual growth rate in population results in a population doubling period of roughly 35 years. This would mean there would be over 1 billion people in just over 1,000 years. At almost 1,200 years there would be over 16 billion human beings.
🤷

That’s not what they taught us in biology class, but alright.

Either way, it has been proven that the Earth is WAAAYYYY older than 6 thousand years - as suggested by the bible. So yeah, I don’t believe in the historical aspect of Genesis.
 
With that being said, I DO believe the message that the story is getting across - that God is the creator of all things, that God singled us out as the “masters” amongst all other creatures on Earth and gave us souls, and that humanity was given the choice to disobey God by sinning, which we did/do.

…I think that’s what Genesis is trying to get across. Not some story of a first man and a first women who saw a snake and ate an apple. :rolleyes:
Yes, that many educated Catholics simply cannot seem to grasp this simple point is perplexing - what is important is the meaning and message of the story not its historicity.

It’s like saying the Parable of the Good Samaritan is worthless unless it actually happened.
 
No, modern science does not prove that Adam & Eve actually existed (in fact the opposite is true)

Mitochondrial Eve is commonly misinterpreted as being Biblical Eve - this is not true, firstly Mitochondrial Eve is our Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) meaning every human alive today has genes from her - that does not mean that she is our oldest female ancestor as some people will have genes from women older than Mitochondrial Eve (nor was she the only woman alive at the time).

And anyway regardless of the scientific evidence, belief in a literal Adam & Eve is highly problematic based on reasoning alone. Namely, if you take parts of the Genesis Creation account to be allegorical (eg. creation of the world and animals) on what grounds do you decide that other parts (such as the Adam & Eve narrative) are historical? If there are no solid grounds for doing (other than just subjective preference) then the distinction is purely arbitrary and meaningless
I have a degree in Biology from Texas A&M (which has a very well respected College of Science) and am currently studying at The University of Texas Health Science Center in San Antonio for a professional degree, so please do not mistake me for someone who has no idea what they’re talking about. With that said, I’m certainly no expert either, but I do have a solid basic understanding of science.

First off, I did not claim that science proves that Adam and Eve existed. I just said that modern science meshes with the idea that Adam and Eve existed. However, what you said in your second paragraph does not follow. Yes, Mitochondrial Eve would be best described as being the most recent common ancestor of all humans alive today. However, there is no way to prove wether or not we have older ancestors (at least according to what I know - please correct me if I’m wrong). Even if we did have older ancestors, this would not exclude the possibility of Adam and Eve existing. So, like I said, science meshes with the Church on this point, even though it might not necessarily explicitly support it. Fair enough?

And my belief in the actual existence of Adam and Eve comes from my belief in the authority of the Catholic Church. Read the following article, it will describe my views: Adam, Eve and Evolution

Here’s the spoiler for the article:
Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37)

God bless,
Chris
 
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