The Old Testament - is it for REAL?

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Dei Verbum is a document that also talks about Tradition and Authority of the Church. Somehow, these finer points have been missed by many.
Missed how?
So somethings have been decided by the Church and held by the church through Tradition to BE FACT-narratives i.e. REALLY HAPPENED.
Your interpretation of just what things have been so declared is not shared by many of your fellow Catholics. Now possibly they and I are wrong, but this is a fact that you need to acknowledge. Many learned persons of ostensible good will disagree with you on what the Church’s position is. Thus, just as Protestant fundamentalists act unreasonably when they claim that their interpretation of Scripture is simply what Scripture teaches, so it seems to me that you are acting unreasonably in not recognizing that your interpretation of the Church’s position is rejected by many Catholics.
The story of Jonah for an example is a fact-narrative for Catholics. In-fact, the idea that it is fiction has been condemned in Providentissimus Deus.
I just skimmed the document and did not see Jonah mentioned. I think you may be relying on the CE article on Jonah, which says that PD implicitly condemned the theory of inspiration held by the two Catholic scholars whom PD recognizes as having taught that Jonah was non-historical. That’s not quite the same thing.

In fact PD does appear to condemn the view I presented above, as follows:
For the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond, because (as they wrongly think) in a question of the truth or falsehood of a passage, we should consider not so much what God has said as the reason and purpose which He had in mind in saying it-this system cannot be tolerated.
You chose a poor example when you focused on Jonah, since in fact I suggested that Jonah may have been intended by the human author as a work of fiction, and it is quite obvious (from the example of Jesus’ parables if nothing else) that Scripture does contain some works of fiction–nor does PD say anything different.

However, Pope Leo seems in the passage above to be taking square aim at the argument I endorsed, that Scripture is inerrant in the sense inspired by God, so that we should look at the reason why God inspired a passage in order to understand in what sense it is without error.

His phrase “not so much what God has said” is not a good way of describing my position. Rather, I’d say that we should consider (in this context) not so much what the human author intended as what Tradition teaches us to believe that God primarily intended. But, of course, his very use of this phrase shows that he identifies the human author’s meaning with God’s meaning in a way that I’m unwilling to do.

So I agree that my position doesn’t seem to be compatible with PD. However, I point out yet again that many of your fellow Catholics do not consider PD to be infallible in all its clauses, and that it certainly is not the last thing the Magisterium has said on the subject. A distinct trajectory is noticeable from Pope Leo through Divino Afflante Spiritu through Dei Verbum, and the trajectory points toward a greater openness to legitimate Biblical criticism and a more nuanced understanding of what it means to say that Scripture is without error.

I should also add that while I appreciate your courtesy in saying that my position is “acceptable for Edwin, since he is not a Catholic,” I don’t accept the underlying assumption about the implications of not being in communion with Rome. Isn’t it “false ecumenism” to accept that any baptized Christian is not subject to the doctrinal standards of the Catholic Church? I understand, of course, that what you mean is probably that the standards of my own communion don’t require me to take a literal view. But your wording seemed to be saying that “non-Catholics” aren’t obliged to follow Catholic doctrine–in fact to be Catholic. And surely you should hold that we are!

I certainly wish to adhere to everything that the Catholic Church teaches. Whether the second-millennium developments in Western or “Roman” Catholicism fully and adequately represent the teaching of the Catholic Church is a point that I believe to be somewhat open to question, though I certainly acknowledge that I have an obligation to seek communion with Rome and to respect the authority of the Pope.

God bless,

Edwin
 
You are correct that it is orthodox for Catholics to not believe in the historicity of the story of Jonah being in the whale’s belly for three days (I never said it should be taken as history either), but (according to the Church) you are incorrect in your views about Adam and Eve. Please provide proof from a Church document or from one of the staff apologists from Catholic Answers if you disagree.

God bless,
Chris
 
How much of the Old Testament are you supposed to believe in, word per word?

Are we supposed to believe that Noah built an ark and crammed each gender of every animal in the world into that ark while the world flooded?

Are we supposed to believe that Jonah was in a whale’s mouth for days and then got spit back out alive?

Are we supposed to believe in the tower of babel, the ten plagues, the pillar of salt… etc etc?

And if these things didn’t actually happen, did the people involved even exist?
i also struggle with these things and makes me question my faith but these are some of the things ive found or thought up of. Alot of the genesis stories can be myths or stories telling spiritual truth with historical tracing. The tower of babel can be inspired by one the ziggurats that the babylonians build:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat

The flood story and summarian flood story can be inspired also by another event in history:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

As for jonah being swallowed by a whale it’s not the farfetched there are reports of fishermen or whale hunters being swallowed and found in the belly after the whale was caught or people surviving for several days/hours under extreme conditions. The book of jonah does state that God arranged the fish and that God was in control of this whole situation.

What I want to know is can anyone explain balam’s talking donkey?
 
You are correct that it is orthodox for Catholics to not believe in the historicity of the story of Jonah being in the whale’s belly for three days (I never said it should be taken as history either), but (according to the Church) you are incorrect in your views about Adam and Eve. Please provide proof from a Church document or from one of the staff apologists from Catholic Answers if you disagree.

God bless,
Chris
I do not believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, word for word. Neither do I believe that humanity is only 6000 years old.

Believing the above is NOT against Catholicism.

So no, I am not incorrect.
 
Um, Deborah, don’t give me a link to something that quotes Kark Keating AFTER I give you something STRAIGHT from a CHURCH DOCUMENT Providentissimus Deus.

I don’t know what your game is but I think its getting a bit ridiculous now.

READ the following and please educate yourself about your faith.

newadvent.org/cathen/08497b.htm

When I say educate yourself, I don’t mean go around finding evidence that confirms your faith and discard the rest.

God Bless 🙂
 
I do not believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, word for word. Neither do I believe that humanity is only 6000 years old.

Believing the above is NOT against Catholicism.

So no, I am not incorrect.
You are suppossed to believe Adam and Eve are real people and sin came through them. As long as you believe that, you are FINE.

But stuff like, Adam represents a group of persons etc are UNACCEPTABLE.

God Bless 🙂
 
It isn’t necessarily, indeed, and this is a point I would make when arguing with those who hold to a more “minimalist” view.

However, absence of evidence can be evidence of absence–usually not conclusive evidence, but not insignificant.

If you tell me, “A giant was walking around in my garden yesterday,” and I find no giant footprints, that’s an absence of evidence that requires some explanation in order not to be accepted as evidence of absence.
I think you are slightly off in comparison here.

What I mean is that let us say by Divine revelation we are told Adam and Eve existed for an example. Just because we cannot find evidence for it, does not mean we discard the narrative as fiction.

For we believe FIRST and FOREMOST in church teaching. Not physical evidence. So unless it can be shown that Adam and Eve did not EXIST, then we have no reason to abandon our FAITH position.
The problem is that most Catholic scholars and theologians agree with me on this point and not with you. You may believe that they are not representing the “real” Catholic position. That’s between you and them.

Edwin
I am honestly not much interested in what THEOLOGIANS say. I am only interested in what the Church teaches and what the THEOLOGIANS in sync with the Church teach.

That is pretty clear. The matter of Jonah for an example is decided as FACT.

There will always be theologians who disagree. But that really means nothing for a Catholic.

Please read the following for better understanding.

newadvent.org/cathen/08497b.htm

Again, I am not interested in convincing you to embrace the Catholic position here. I am merely making sure people KNOW the CHURCH position and not that of mere “Catholic” Theologians.

God Bless 🙂
 
Missed how?
It is missed in the sense that most on this thread who have been arguing from Dei Verbum seem to think the document claimed that THIS specific verse was Allegory, THAT specific verse was not etc. Or some seem to think the document claimed that EVERY verse in the OT is allegory. Some-others think that EVERY supernatural looking event in the OT must be allegory.

All of the above is false. Dei Verbum merely states that some stories might be allegory/fiction etc. This does not mean ALL stories are fiction.

The church in its authority have taught throughout Tradition that some stories are FACT-narratives. One cannot disagree with them.

The church is the FINAL decider.
Your interpretation of just what things have been so declared is not shared by many of your fellow Catholics. Now possibly they and I are wrong, but this is a fact that you need to acknowledge. Many learned persons of ostensible good will disagree with you on what the Church’s position is. Thus, just as Protestant fundamentalists act unreasonably when they claim that their interpretation of Scripture is simply what Scripture teaches, so it seems to me that you are acting unreasonably in not recognizing that your interpretation of the Church’s position is rejected by many Catholics.
Unfortunately, the Catholic position, unlike the Protestant position, is not dependent on what the majority of the Catholics believe.

It is what the Church teaches. End of story.

Now if you want to debate why Catholicism is true, lets go to a different thread or do it via PM.
I just skimmed the document and did not see Jonah mentioned. I think you may be relying on the CE article on Jonah, which says that PD implicitly condemned the theory of inspiration held by the two Catholic scholars whom PD recognizes as having taught that Jonah was non-historical. That’s not quite the same thing.

In fact PD does appear to condemn the view I presented above, as follows:

You chose a poor example when you focused on Jonah, since in fact I suggested that Jonah may have been intended by the human author as a work of fiction, and it is quite obvious (from the example of Jesus’ parables if nothing else) that Scripture does contain some works of fiction–nor does PD say anything different.

However, Pope Leo seems in the passage above to be taking square aim at the argument I endorsed, that Scripture is inerrant in the sense inspired by God, so that we should look at the reason why God inspired a passage in order to understand in what sense it is without error.

His phrase “not so much what God has said” is not a good way of describing my position. Rather, I’d say that we should consider (in this context) not so much what the human author intended as what Tradition teaches us to believe that God primarily intended. But, of course, his very use of this phrase shows that he identifies the human author’s meaning with God’s meaning in a way that I’m unwilling to do.

So I agree that my position doesn’t seem to be compatible with PD. However, I point out yet again that many of your fellow Catholics do not consider PD to be infallible in all its clauses, and that it certainly is not the last thing the Magisterium has said on the subject. A distinct trajectory is noticeable from Pope Leo through Divino Afflante Spiritu through Dei Verbum, and the trajectory points toward a greater openness to legitimate Biblical criticism and a more nuanced understanding of what it means to say that Scripture is without error.
Once again, what many Catholics think is irrelevant.

PD is infallible not because it is an encyclical but BECAUSE it doesn’t teach anything different than what the Church has held in Tradition.

And what you said has been incompatible with Tradition. But as a protestant, that is fine. But as a Catholic, it is not.
I should also add that while I appreciate your courtesy in saying that my position is “acceptable for Edwin, since he is not a Catholic,” I don’t accept the underlying assumption about the implications of not being in communion with Rome. Isn’t it “false ecumenism” to accept that any baptized Christian is not subject to the doctrinal standards of the Catholic Church? I understand, of course, that what you mean is probably that the standards of my own communion don’t require me to take a literal view. But your wording seemed to be saying that “non-Catholics” aren’t obliged to follow Catholic doctrine–in fact to be Catholic. And surely you should hold that we are!
Actually, I am telling Catholics what Catholic doctrine is. Logically speaking, it is irrelevant for a Protestant since the problem they need to answer first is why be Catholic.

As I said before, my concern for a non-Catholic’s soul lies in that specific question and not whether the non-Catholic believes one part of Catholic teaching. If you are interested in that specific question, I would be very happy to discuss it over PM’s or on a different thread.
I certainly wish to adhere to everything that the Catholic Church teaches. Whether the second-millennium developments in Western or “Roman” Catholicism fully and adequately represent the teaching of the Catholic Church is a point that I believe to be somewhat open to question, though I certainly acknowledge that I have an obligation to seek communion with Rome and to respect the authority of the Pope.
I am not sure what you mean there in the bolded part above. Since you are seeking communion with Rome, I am not sure it matters?

God Bless 🙂
 
I do not believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, word for word. Neither do I believe that humanity is only 6000 years old.

Believing the above is NOT against Catholicism.

So no, I am not incorrect.
Debora123,

I am not sure of the age of the world myself, I tend to believe the age that is given by scientists of it being 4.6 billion years old.

However, I would like to ask what part of Adam and Eve do you not believe to be literal before I respond? I am hoping that you believe that Adam and Eve were real people.

God bless.
 
How to read the account of the fall
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265
This what the catechism says. It is figurative language to say as long as there has been humans there has been sin. That’s the only “truth” we are required to accept.
 
It isn’t necessarily, indeed, and this is a point I would make when arguing with those who hold to a more “minimalist” view.

However, absence of evidence can be evidence of absence–usually not conclusive evidence, but not insignificant.

If you tell me, “A giant was walking around in my garden yesterday,” and I find no giant footprints, that’s an absence of evidence that requires some explanation in order not to be accepted as evidence of absence.

The problem is that most Catholic scholars and theologians agree with me on this point and not with you. You may believe that they are not representing the “real” Catholic position. That’s between you and them.

Edwin
If you tell me, “A giant was walking around in my garden yesterday,” and I find no giant footprints, that’s an absence of evidence that requires some explanation in order not to be accepted as evidence of absence.
Much like the giants in biblical times? - Nephilim. We have only the account of the bible to confirm that they existed? The explanation from scripture tells us that the Sons of God mixed with the Sons of Men - and the Nephilim (giants) came out from the relationship. Do we believe this? Can we confirm this? Is this a story that came from another culture and integrated into the Hebrew literature? Was this a myth? A false tale to prove a point?

We think to ourselves, that once the information is affirmed then this should be the end of the search - as we “all” now know that this is truth. You will (always) obtain what you search for in the bible. Our Lord said it “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me”

However, who (without form - God) reveals secrets? (Deuteronomy 29:29) So it’s not necessarily true that all information can be confirmed because the Exodus was another example of what is true and what is fiction. Where there 10 plagues, did Moses actually turn the Nile into blood - was this symbolic of the children who died by Pharaoh’s orders - (see Genesis 4:10)pharaoh had casted into the Nile every male child that was born, so that Moses should die. This passage is very similar to that of Matthew - So what about the Magi? Was there a star that guided all three of them - was there angels praising God in the heaven at the time of Christ’s birth? and the most important question - how many saw this star and heard the angels praising God? This was the time of the redemption.

"Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

The Magi, found the child by not only prophecy - but also by direction of a star? Science can even “try” to reverse time on their computers to find the actual date of the sighting - if science can’t find the actual star, does it mean that it did or didn’t exist? So the next question is what does the scripture say about the prophet and Elijah? John 1:22 Finally they said, “Who are you?** Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us**. What do you say about yourself?”

The Magi never returned back to Herod - so who are the leaders returning back to when they asked John those questions? 23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”

Who could confirm John’s reply? - The leaders? it is prophecy. Again, how do these leaders receive the message about the prophecy, passage says in Matthew ""Who warned you to flee God’s coming wrath? The prophet Simeon knew about the prophecy, and the child Jesus was delivered into his arms "Luke 2:30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,

…Once again, when Abraham “gazed” at the stars he wasn’t able to see a male descendent - and what did God reply "“Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them…Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” Scripture tells us that Abraham believed so it was credited it to him as righteousness. However, Abraham believe that the promise was about to be fulfilled – but it was how the promise was to be delivered. What did the angel tell Sarah "14 Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.”

By the way, in Genesis 18 - can Angels eat food and drink? and what do Angels look like? - 8. So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.
 
How much of the Old Testament are you supposed to believe in, word per word?

Are we supposed to believe that Noah built an ark and crammed each gender of every animal in the world into that ark while the world flooded?

Are we supposed to believe that Jonah was in a whale’s mouth for days and then got spit back out alive?

Are we supposed to believe in the tower of babel, the ten plagues, the pillar of salt… etc etc?

And if these things didn’t actually happen, did the people involved even exist?
Can you give a good reason for not taking this at face value?

If Noah didn’t exist, how can we claim Abraham did? If Jonah didn’t exist, how can we claim David did? Jesus asked Nicodemus “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?” (John 3:12).

Sure the Bible contains poetry and fiction (such as Jesus’ parables) which are not to be taken literally, but you can tell these from the context.
I do not believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, word for word. Neither do I believe that humanity is only 6000 years old.

Believing the above is NOT against Catholicism.

So no, I am not incorrect.
Just because the Church does not state that you must take Gen 1-3 literally does not mean you are correct in not doing so.
 
Can you give a good reason for not taking this at face value?

If Noah didn’t exist, how can we claim Abraham did? If Jonah didn’t exist, how can we claim David did? Jesus asked Nicodemus “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?” (John 3:12).

Sure the Bible contains poetry and fiction (such as Jesus’ parables) which are not to be taken literally, but you can tell these from the context.

Just because the Church does not state that you must take Gen 1-3 literally does not mean you are correct in not doing so.
Matthew 21:

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
**
Mark 4:**

“9.*** Let the person who has ears to hear, listen!***”

These verses begin with Listen to, how do you take scripture and what do you think - Jesus teachings/ and his parables are giving those who are listening a directional path, so what a great teacher. Also, there are scriptural passages that seem similar to those of the great prophets, like Elijah and Jesus, who feed the multitude.These passages and the miracles that visible to all, are reaffirmed through Christ - if there is a viewable symbolism throughout scripture, it is Christ.

The symbolism can be viewed as this:

"The menorah consisted of a base and a shaft with six branches, beaten out of solid gold. **The six branches curved to the height of the central shaft so that all seven lamps at their apexes **were in a straight line.

And you must make a lampstand of pure gold. Of hammered work the lampstand is to be made. Its base, its branches, its cups, its knobs and its blossoms **are to proceed out from it. **32 And six branches are running out from its sides, three branches of the lampstand from its one side and three branches of the lampstand from its other side." Menorah (Temple)

Christ proceeded forth with the Word of God - we say that God’s Word is the cause of creation. God being the lampstand (the light) Christ being the main shaft with six branches - the six branches curved to the height of the central shaft** so that “all” seven lamps are at their apexes**…even though there are similarities about the the prophets in the old testament, Christ is the central shaft that upholds the prophet of old - he is attesting to them as well as to himself.

I hope I worded this correctly? 😊 if I pass away today and come back as someone else, if there is such a thing as…, I would like to come back being a catholic scholar because of how accurate they are, and even maybe a Jesuit…but that would be asking for to much, a teacher.🤷

Mary
 
How much of the Old Testament are you supposed to believe in, word per word?

Are we supposed to believe that Noah built an ark and crammed each gender of every animal in the world into that ark while the world flooded?

Are we supposed to believe that Jonah was in a whale’s mouth for days and then got spit back out alive?

Are we supposed to believe in the tower of babel, the ten plagues, the pillar of salt… etc etc?

And if these things didn’t actually happen, did the people involved even exist?
From my research, I’ve discovered that it’s pretty much a case by case issue.

For example, we do have to believe that Adam and Eve were the first two human beings. We do not have to believe that their bodies were spontaneously created or that God created the world in six days.
 
Matthew 21:

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
**
Mark 4:**

“9.*** Let the person who has ears to hear, listen!***”

These verses begin with Listen to, how do you take scripture and what do you think - Jesus teachings/ and his parables are giving those who are listening a directional path, so what a great teacher. Also, there are scriptural passages that seem similar to those of the great prophets, like Elijah and Jesus, who feed the multitude.These passages and the miracles that visible to all, are reaffirmed through Christ - if there is a viewable symbolism throughout scripture, it is Christ.

The symbolism can be viewed as this:

"The menorah consisted of a base and a shaft with six branches, beaten out of solid gold. **The six branches curved to the height of the central shaft so that all seven lamps at their apexes **were in a straight line.

And you must make a lampstand of pure gold. Of hammered work the lampstand is to be made. Its base, its branches, its cups, its knobs and its blossoms **are to proceed out from it. **32 And six branches are running out from its sides, three branches of the lampstand from its one side and three branches of the lampstand from its other side." Menorah (Temple)

Christ proceeded forth with the Word of God - we say that God’s Word is the cause of creation. God being the lampstand (the light) Christ being the main shaft with six branches - the six branches curved to the height of the central shaft** so that “all” seven lamps are at their apexes**…even though there are similarities about the the prophets in the old testament, Christ is the central shaft that upholds the prophet of old - he is attesting to them as well as to himself.

I hope I worded this correctly? 😊 if I pass away today and come back as someone else, if there is such a thing as…, I would like to come back being a catholic scholar because of how accurate they are, and even maybe a Jesuit…but that would be asking for to much, a teacher.🤷

Mary
brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/4591/It_Is_Finished_Consummatum_Est

This picture: Portfolio/Series: The Life of Our Lord Jesus Christ (La Vie de Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ)

As Jesus expires on the cross, he utters the words “It is finished.” In this image, the spirits of the Old Testament prophets hover around the transverse bar of his crucifix, welcoming him into their company. Within the six-pointed Star of David, Tissot has painted the Hebrew word for Lord, further underscoring Christ’s role in the divine plan.

Asserting that their “prophecies are accomplished,” the artist shows the hovering prophets triumphantly holding scriptural scrolls above their heads. Below, the Virgin Mary reaches her arms out to her son.

Artist: James Tissot, French, 1836-1902
 
Hi,

Sorry I did not answer your question there. I had to look up some other information before getting to that.

To your first question, no the Pope does not say that Adam lived 5000 years ago. But this is a bit irrevalent.

With your coment on Gallilo I would recommend you look in A History of Christendom vol. 4, The Cleaving of Christendom, under the Index. It has a great Catholic perspective of what was going on, and is very fair to both parties involved. From reading it there was a lot more going on behind the scenes that need to be taken into account when approaching this topic.

I quote a bit from this book:

"In Feburary 1616 Pope Paul V decided that “a formal decision on the Copernican system” should be made by the Inquisition, though he was persuaded at the last moment by Cardinal Bellarmine not to make a statement himself on the issue. Cardinal Bellarmine had said it might eventually be proved true; probably the greatest Catholic apologist who ever lived, he surely had some understanding of how disastorus it would be for the Church to have the Pope condemn a scientific theory that later turned out to be true. But the total separation of scientific theories on the material nature of the universie from theological and philosophical teaching was not yet generally understood, and even less could most contemporaries grasp that despite being the guardian of ultimate truth, the Church as such has not authority or competence in science. So a commitee of eleven theologians and not one natural philosopher or mathematician was presented with the proposition that the earth revolves around the sun and unanimoulsy prounounced it false, absurd, and heretical. [NOTICE THAT THIS WAS A COMMITTEE, AND NOT THE POPE WITH THE BISHOPS IN UNION WITH HIM. This was not a Magisterial promulgation.]

Heretical it certainly was not, by any rational criterion, and the Inquisiont took out the word before publishing its decree again Galileo. But the condemnation of a scientific theory as “false and absurd” was one of the most grievous mistakes in the history of the Church. The Church was not empowered by it Founder to decide scientific questions. St. Augustine had said exactly that more than a thousand years before, but few seemed to remember it."

God bless.
Sorry, LittleOne, you are just escaping and that does not make a true debate.
So, if Adam is not 5000 years old, how old is he, according to the Popes? Or he has got no birthday? Suppose that we would say that we do not know when Jesus lived, was it 1000 bC or 1000 dC. would he be plausible? The question is of the utmost importance for science gives us dates, according to scientific measurements, for instance carbon14.

So, if the Pope can make mistakes, why the fuss about all you asking for are the Magisterial Arguments? It seems to me that in your readings there are only magisterial stuff or close to like that book. I avoid that so that I may see a wider view.

You seem to want certitudes: the Pope, ex cathedra, dogma. But what we are certain of God is too little, for He is Infinite. To accept that we know nothing about how man appeared on earth is just to give to God what is God’s. When scientists are painstakingly discovering how from a little cell so much developed, we are seeing god’s wonderful, intelligent, powerful and absolutely astonishing plan more than with an anthropomorphic tale of a man making a clay model and blowing it. To reject Science as if it was devil’s is a mistake that the Church dearly paid with Galileo. Let’s not repeat the mistake.

I suggest you read Teillhard de Chardin, if you did not read yet. Though the writings are old, the message is pwoerful. I have good atheist scientists who are astonished by its powerful message.

Nowadays I see more of God’s Face and beauty through the Astonomers and Physical Scientists than through the Bible, as the Bible says that teh whole universes shows God’s Glory.
 
Sorry, LittleOne, you are just escaping and that does not make a true debate.
So, if Adam is not 5000 years old, how old is he, according to the Popes? Or he has got no birthday? Suppose that we would say that we do not know when Jesus lived, was it 1000 bC or 1000 dC. would he be plausible?
I cannot answer that question because there has been no Magisterial promulgation on how old Adam is and to do so would be very dishonest of me. I am not escaping the debate, I cannot answer it.
So, if the Pope can make mistakes, why the fuss about all you asking for are the Magisterial Arguments? It seems to me that in your readings there are only magisterial stuff or close to like that book.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church - bear with me on this one.
#891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals… The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council. 418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” 419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.” 420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself. 421
892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” 422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
If it is a matter that is of Faith and Morals I want the Magisterial Teaching. However if it is not a matter of Faith and Morals than I would go to the proper field so to speak. If I wanted to have surgery on my brain, I sure would not ask the Holy Father to do my surgery, unless of course he could get sevreal degrees at once and become proficient really fast - no disrespect meant at all by this remark. If I wanted to build a bridge, I would go to engineers and not to the Bishops. If I want to see how old the earth is, I would turn to Geological studies. However, I would not turn to any field outside of the Magisterium for information concerning matters of Faith and Morals. Please understand that I also include Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition with the Magisterium.
I avoid that so that I may see a wider view.
In matters outside of Faith and Morals I am very open to other fields of knowledge.
You seem to want certitudes: the Pope, ex cathedra, dogma. But what we are certain of God is too little, for He is Infinite. To accept that we know nothing about how man appeared on earth is just to give to God what is God’s. When scientists are painstakingly discovering how from a little cell so much developed, we are seeing god’s wonderful, intelligent, powerful and absolutely astonishing plan more than with an anthropomorphic tale of a man making a clay model and blowing it. To reject Science as if it was devil’s is a mistake that the Church dearly paid with Galileo. Let’s not repeat the mistake.
Oh please understand that I am not rejecting science at all. No, no, no, that is so far from my intent. In fact I too can be awed at what you described science doing. However man came to be, this I know is that man is created in the image and likeness of God. The Church does not condemn evolution, and neither do I, I see the hand of God throughout all of evolutionary history. IN fact, I was very glad that the Church does not condemn evolution, I believe it was guided be God all along. But the point remains the same, God created man in His own image and likeness.

I have to continue this in another message.
 
Nowadays I see more of God’s Face and beauty through the Astonomers and Physical Scientists than through the Bible, as the Bible says that teh whole universes shows God’s Glory.
I love this it reminds me of this found in the CCC as well, it is one of St. Augustine’s quote, one my Confirmation saints.
And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: “See, we are beautiful.” Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change? 8
8 - St. Augustine, Sermo 241, 2: PL 38, 1134.

Yes I see God’s beauty as well through his creation, in the rising and setting of the sun, in the rain that falls to the parched ground, in the starkness of a lone vulture flying against the burning sky at noonday, at night when the stars are ablaze, and many other places. I also see His beauty in His Word. We are truly blessed to have a God who loves us so much that He has left His beauty for those who are open to it, such as you and I, and many others.

If you need the document sources from the numbers in the CCC quotes let me know, and I will be glad to get them for you.

God bless you.
 
Um, Deborah, don’t give me a link to something that quotes Kark Keating AFTER I give you something STRAIGHT from a CHURCH DOCUMENT Providentissimus Deus.

I don’t know what your game is but I think its getting a bit ridiculous now.

READ the following and please educate yourself about your faith.

newadvent.org/cathen/08497b.htm

When I say educate yourself, I don’t mean go around finding evidence that confirms your faith and discard the rest.

God Bless 🙂
Haha, ok ddarko. You can write to CAF and tell them their APOLOGIST is giving out wrong information.

Until then, I will take THEIR word over YOURS, or anyone else here.

And I am done with this conversation.
 
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