The Old Testament - is it for REAL?

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When I say educate yourself, I don’t mean go around finding evidence that confirms your faith and discard the rest.
Go to the apologist’s forum (people who actually know what they are talking about) and search “Jonah and the Whale.”

As you will see, I did not go around looking at multiple answers that contradicted each other and pick out the one “I liked.”

This same answer was given by multiple apologists.

(And actually, you seem to be one of the ONLY Catholics here saying that with the exception of gen 1-3, we should take all the rest of the OT word for word, literally. So no, I am NOT “going around,” desperately looking for the answer that fits my liking.)
 
Haha, ok ddarko. You can write to CAF and tell them their APOLOGIST is giving out wrong information.

Until then, I will take THEIR word over YOURS, or anyone else here.

And I am done with this conversation.
First, that Apologist quoted Karl Keating.

I showed you Church documents which stated things clearly.

If you are going to believe an apologist over a Church document, then you are absolutely naive and too stuck up on your own view. So good luck!

God Bless 🙂
 
Go to the apologist’s forum (people who actually know what they are talking about) and search “Jonah and the Whale.”

As you will see, I did not go around looking at multiple answers that contradicted each other and pick out the one “I liked.”

This same answer was given by multiple apologists.

(And actually, you seem to be one of the ONLY Catholics here saying that with the exception of gen 1-3, we should take all the rest of the OT word for word, literally. So no, I am NOT “going around,” desperately looking for the answer that fits my liking.)
WHAT?

Quit attacking straw man positions. The story of Jonah is FACT-narrative. It says nothing about word by word being literal. 🤷

What the church teaches is that Jonah was real and his story actually happened. It does not teach that the story is word by word literal (whatever that even means).

I am really confused about your level of comprehension at this point. So frankly, I think its something that is an intrinsic problem in you that you yourself can fix at this point and is out of our control.

Good luck!

God Bless 🙂
 
So frankly, I think its something that is an intrinsic problem in you that you yourself can fix at this point and is out of our control.

Good luck!

God Bless 🙂
Haha, yeah ok… a problem in me and apparently all the other Catholics here who have the same view point, and apparently CAF’s apologists as well.

Thanks for the “good luck” but I got the answer to my question, so I am quite well, thank you.
 
I do not believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, word for word. Neither do I believe that humanity is only 6000 years old.

Believing the above is NOT against Catholicism.

So no, I am not incorrect.
So long as you believe that Adam and Eve physically existed, you can believe that Genesis is not literal, word for word. I’ve shown you Church documents and posts from CA apologists that show this.

God bless,
Chris
 
So long as you believe that Adam and Eve physically existed, you can believe that Genesis is not literal, word for word. I’ve shown you Church documents and posts from CA apologists that show this.

God bless,
Chris
:confused:

I have no problem believing that there was an Adam and an Eve. I just don’t believe that the Earth was created in 7 days 6000 years ago, and I don’t believe things happened exactly as they said - a snake tempted the first woman and the first man to eat an apple. (and I don’t have to believe this)

I don’t see why a select few of you are having such a hard time understanding that.
 
So long as you believe that Adam and Eve physically existed, you can believe that Genesis is not literal, word for word. I’ve shown you Church documents and posts from CA apologists that show this.

God bless,
Chris
The CCC states that story of Adam and Eve is figurative language. We aren’t required to believe that they are actual people. Only the truth that sin has existed as long as man has existed.
 
:confused:

I have no problem believing that there was an Adam and an Eve. I just don’t believe that the Earth was created in 7 days 6000 years ago, and I don’t believe things happened exactly as they said - a snake tempted the first woman and the first man to eat an apple. (and I don’t have to believe this)

I don’t see why a select few of you are having such a hard time understanding that.
Its not in the understanding of or even in the how someone else’s position on scripture is taken in - what one believes or doesn’t believe. I made that mistake along time ago. You can show scripture from many directions and give information to back it - and the scholars and saints who wrote about it and interpreted it with xx many commentaries. The scripture has to be taken internally taken ((much like the digestion) spiritually - in the soul) before it can be externalized (professing by word of mouth). What is it in scripture that Christ wants us to become aware of or to see (Genesis 21:19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water.)- and what part of scripture does he wants others to learn and also hear (with our senses - Faith will tell us Christ is present, When our human senses fail.).

What is the most important message about Genesis 1 & 2? What I found, was the fact that we are made in the image and likeness of God - so cool, that God said and life was created, a double - so cool, the next understanding was in the fact that man and woman were equal in their responsibilities in the garden ( 28 God blessed them and said to them…), and that God provided a means for both man and woman to be physical provided for, (necessities of life) “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.” Everything had enough to be satisfied…so very cool and that they both walked with God - in wisdom and understanding. Man was made perfect, and was crowned (Psalms 8:5 "You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.), then on the seven day - God blessed the seventh day and rested, the Shabbat When Jesus resurrected - Sunday, he returned back to the Father (John 17:11 "I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. .) - Sunday, being the 1st day of creation - Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. So out of the chaos or the desert, came a great light ( Isaiah 9:2 - and that light was the knowledge of God, God’s word - Christ. see John 1:14 “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.” - and, “7 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”)

"Jeshimon, derived from jasham, “to be desolate”. It was looked upon as a place without water, thus Isaiah 43:19: “Behold I shall set up streams in the desert [jeshimon]”
Parts of the waste region about the Dead Sea are called the jeshimon; and to the north-east of the same sea there is a place called Beth-Jeshimoth (cf. Numbers 33:49), where the Israelites are said to have encamped at the end of the wanderings. These are the principal words used for desert in the Bible. There are, however, others less frequently used, only one or two of which can be mentioned here: such as tohu, used in
Genesis 1:2: “the earth was void”. In Deuteronomy 32:10, it is used in parallelism with midbar, and in Psalm 107:40 it refers to the desert directly. Such also is çiyyah, which means, literally, dryness, but refers at times to the desert: so, 'areç çiyyah, “a land of drought”, or “a desert” (Hosea 2:5). LINK

The numbering of the days in Genesis tells us the different order of creation and how he divides them, like woman who came from the rib of man. Day one divides the darkness from light; day two, the waters from the skies; and day three, the sea from the land…etc.

edit So - there are other thoughts to all of this, creatio ex nihilo, meaning “creation out of nothing” and that man’s days are numbered, Job 14:5 “Man’s days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed.”

Many blessings to you!
Mary
 
Haha, yeah ok… a problem in me and apparently all the other Catholics here who have the same view point, and apparently CAF’s apologists as well.
CAF’s apologists never referred to a church document. They merely gave a piece of writing from Karl Keating. Apologist CAN make mistakes. The church DOES NOT.

So you are suppossed to listen to the Church. Not an apologist. This should be common sense but it appears that it isn’t so I am just reminding you.
Thanks for the “good luck” but I got the answer to my question, so I am quite well, thank you.
Well, I had to answer your question multiple times due to some comprehension problems you had BUT I am glad that it finally got through to you and answered your questions 👍

God Bless 🙂
 
The CCC states that story of Adam and Eve is figurative language. We aren’t required to believe that they are actual people. Only the truth that sin has existed as long as man has existed.
The CCC says that the Old Testament uses figurative language, however the CCC continually refers to Adam and Eve as our first parents, this meant in a literal sense.

As to whether or not they are real people, here’s some dogmas of the Church. These are taken from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott.

The First Man was created by God. [De Fide]
Our first parents, before teh Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. [DE FIDE]
Our first parents in Paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. [DE FIDE]
Through sin our First Parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. [DE FIDE]
Our First parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. [DE FIDE]
Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. [DE FIDE]

DE FIDE doctrines or dogmas if you will are wrote of in the beginning of this book.

The highest degree of certainity appertains to the immediatley revealed truths. The belief due to them is based on the authority of God Revealing [fides divina], and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact that a truth is contained in Revelation, one’s certainty is then also based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority of the Church [fides catholica]. If Truths are defined by a solemn judgement of faith [definition] of the Pope or of a Gernal Council, they are “de fide definita.”

Church Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church have always taught that Adam and Eve our our first parents and that they existed. There is so much writing out there in support of this.

I have a question for you. If you say that you are not required to believe that Adam and Eve existed and you don’t believe that they did, where does Original Sin fit in and why did Christ come?

God bless.
 
:confused:

I have no problem believing that there was an Adam and an Eve. I just don’t believe that the Earth was created in 7 days 6000 years ago, and I don’t believe things happened exactly as they said - a snake tempted the first woman and the first man to eat an apple. (and I don’t have to believe this)

I don’t see why a select few of you are having such a hard time understanding that.
My apologies, I must have misread something you said. God bless.
 
My apologies, I must have misread something you said. God bless.
Actually you didn’t misread. The original position by Debora was that Adam and Eve are not the parents of the entire human race as stated in Post #51 on this thread.

To quote

"Of course, I believe that at one point we became “human enough” and got souls. But I don’t believe that we all came from Adam and Eve, and I don’t think the Church requires us to believe that either. "

She also did state that ‘I don’t believe in 6000 years…’ stuff in that post.

But now she is trying to make it look like she only said that part and the rest about Adam and Eve was never mentioned. If this was a verbal discussion, I would think I am going crazy, but thanks to forum posts that stay frozen, I know what I remember actually happened.

God Bless 🙂
 
The CCC says that the Old Testament uses figurative language, however the CCC continually refers to Adam and Eve as our first parents, this meant in a literal sense.

As to whether or not they are real people, here’s some dogmas of the Church. These are taken from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott.

The First Man was created by God. [De Fide]
Our first parents, before teh Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. [DE FIDE]
Our first parents in Paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. [DE FIDE]
Through sin our First Parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. [DE FIDE]
Our First parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. [DE FIDE]
Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. [DE FIDE]

DE FIDE doctrines or dogmas if you will are wrote of in the beginning of this book.

The highest degree of certainity appertains to the immediatley revealed truths. The belief due to them is based on the authority of God Revealing [fides divina], and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact that a truth is contained in Revelation, one’s certainty is then also based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority of the Church [fides catholica]. If Truths are defined by a solemn judgement of faith [definition] of the Pope or of a Gernal Council, they are “de fide definita.”

Church Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church have always taught that Adam and Eve our our first parents and that they existed. There is so much writing out there in support of this.

I have a question for you. If you say that you are not required to believe that Adam and Eve existed and you don’t believe that they did, where does Original Sin fit in and why did Christ come?

God bless.
All we are required to “believe” is that there was a first man and a first woman. People have sinned since there was people. It’s not a stretch - we’re here so obviously we started somewhere. Whether that person was called Adam is irrelevant to the faith.
 
All we are required to “believe” is that there was a first man and a first woman. People have sinned since there was people. It’s not a stretch - we’re here so obviously we started somewhere. Whether that person was called Adam is irrelevant to the faith.
Then I will have to respectully agree to disagree and stand by God’s grace with the Teaching and the language employed by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

God bless.
 
Actually you didn’t misread. The original position by Debora was that Adam and Eve are not the parents of the entire human race as stated in Post #51 on this thread.

To quote

"Of course, I believe that at one point we became “human enough” and got souls. But I don’t believe that we all came from Adam and Eve, and I don’t think the Church requires us to believe that either. "

She also did state that ‘I don’t believe in 6000 years…’ stuff in that post.

But now she is trying to make it look like she only said that part and the rest about Adam and Eve was never mentioned. If this was a verbal discussion, I would think I am going crazy, but thanks to forum posts that stay frozen, I know what I remember actually happened.

God Bless 🙂
I’m not concerned with whether or not she believed that we came from Adam and Eve previously, so long as she believes that at the present 🙂 My prayer is that all Christians may draw nearer each day to the Truth that God reveals in His Holy, Catholic Church.
 
Then I will have to respectully agree to disagree and stand by God’s grace with the Teaching and the language employed by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

God bless.
I haven’t said anything contrary to the teaching. 🤷
 
I’m not concerned with whether or not she believed that we came from Adam and Eve previously, so long as she believes that at the present 🙂 My prayer is that all Christians may draw nearer each day to the Truth that God reveals in His Holy, Catholic Church.
Yes, I just thought you should know in case you were not sure if you were crazy 🙂

God Bless 🙂
 
Actually you didn’t misread. The original position by Debora was that Adam and Eve are not the parents of the entire human race as stated in Post #51 on this thread.

To quote

"Of course, I believe that at one point we became “human enough” and got souls. But I don’t believe that we all came from Adam and Eve, and I don’t think the Church requires us to believe that either. "

She also did state that ‘I don’t believe in 6000 years…’ stuff in that post.

But now she is trying to make it look like she only said that part and the rest about Adam and Eve was never mentioned. If this was a verbal discussion, I would think I am going crazy, but thanks to forum posts that stay frozen, I know what I remember actually happened.

God Bless 🙂
:rolleyes:

You’re a trip.

As everyone can see, I never said I don’t believe in Adam and Eve. What I don’t believe in is the historicity of the story of creation. I don’t necessarily believe A&E are the first people, simply because humanity has been around for over 6,000 years. Adam and Eve are only 6000 years old. Unless of course, the 6,000 years thing isn’t accurate and they were actually around BEFORE then.
 
CAF’s apologists never referred to a church document. They merely gave a piece of writing from Karl Keating. Apologist CAN make mistakes. The church DOES NOT.

So you are suppossed to listen to the Church. Not an apologist. This should be common sense but it appears that it isn’t so I am just reminding you.

Well, I had to answer your question multiple times due to some comprehension problems you had BUT I am glad that it finally got through to you and answered your questions 👍

God Bless 🙂
You are obviously mistaken ddarko, in your understanding of the Church’s view on this.

As Catholics, we ARE free to believe that many stories in the old testament ARE figurative and did not happen as they are written.

I don’t understand why you keep picking on ME for believing what I believe in, when basically everyone else on this forum is saying the same thing… including an apologist.

I’m not going to agree with you on this, so we agree to disagree. As I said before, if you think the apologist is giving out wrong information, I suggest you write to CAF and complain, but as for you and I, I think we are done with this conversation.

I have found the correct answer, and it did not come from you. Thanks for participating.
 
:rolleyes:

You’re a trip.

As everyone can see, I never said I don’t believe in Adam and Eve. What I don’t believe in is the historicity of the story of creation. I don’t necessarily believe A&E are the first people, simply because humanity has been around for over 6,000 years. Adam and Eve are only 6000 years old. Unless of course, the 6,000 years thing isn’t accurate and they were actually around BEFORE then.
Please Debora, how can you refute the evidence I have presented above?

You have clearly stated the following in post 51:-

"Of course, I believe that at one point we became “human enough” and got souls. But I don’t believe that we all came from Adam and Eve, and I don’t think the Church requires us to believe that either. "

Thus your position previously was not Catholic. The Catholic position necessitates that we all COME from Adam and Eve.

Now its no shame to say that now you believe in the truth and before you were holding an incorrect position. I do that all the time in some threads. Instead, to say that you were always right and NEVER said anything contrary is rather dishonest on your part.

God Bless 🙂
 
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