The Old Testament. The age of "symbolism." It is real now.

[CatholicKnight3]

I see a few discussions in relation to “tradition.”

Protestants are insistent that the EUCHARIST is a mere SYMBOL. (Some Catholics too)

I know most of them have been inundated by Catholics defending this notion by the gospel of John chapter 6.

Lets consider a few things here. The entire OLD testament is about the prophecy and REPRESENTATIONS of the Christ. Almost all of it, if not the entire thing.

It is beyond clear for those who have the ears and eyes to believe what the pass over is referring to. We know this was all symbolic.

If we are wise enough we can see what the Arc of the Covenant is referring to. Mary, for those that may not know. If you look at the end of Revelation ch 11, you would see that John made the first reference to the ARC OF THE NEW COVENANT. It goes from ch 11 right into chapter 12 from that witness, and describes the woman that gave birth to the MALE CHILD. If we see what was put inside the ARC of the COVENANT, we will see all of these things all refer to the Christ. The manna from heaven. The ten commandments. The staff of the high priest. The candles. All of these things refer to the bread of life, the law made flesh, the high priest and the light of the world. All of these things are SYMBOLS. Those who called and enlightened understand what this symbolizes.

We get to John Chapter 6. One of the things Christ says is, his body is REAL FOOD and his blood is REAL DRINK. Not symbolic. It is real. It is fulfilled. Through faith. Everything that Christ spoke into existence, became. He said the little girl RISE, and she did. He said to Lazarus, come forth, and he came forth. So, when HE says THIS IS MY BODY, it is.

So, when we talk about traditions, and what has been passed on to us, we can be confident that one of these TRADITIONS is receiving the essence of Christ in Body and SPIRIT when we participate in this supper.

I have had many different resentments towards the church in my life. One, I am a selfish person. I tend to rebel against authority. I act like a petulant child at times. Actually I do that often. I still have things I would rather not know, and my struggles with pride and other sins is real for me.

However, there is only ONE church that recognizes this as REAL. The REAL PRESENCE. None of the others do. It is a mere symbol. I have attended and from time to time I still attend this Christ Fellowship church in West Palm AFTER I go to mass. Cause I think their teachings are very good. It is uplifting, so please if you are a protestant, do not think I am judging.

I am however, asking you to consider these things, so that YOUR JOY may increase. So that you may know the true presence. If you do, and take it faith, you will see. That is why you would then kneel cause you feel in the need for thanks giving.

That is why the word must be in line with the keeping and holding fast to the traditions as Paul and the Church has passed on to us. Not so that we may boast and accuse, but so that we may all be ONE body.

 

[Monergistic]

I’m a Protestant who does believe the bread and wine are symbolic. But I and probably quite a few Catholic commenters after me are about to tell you that most Protestants have some kind of Real Presence doctrine- it’s just not transubstantiation. Anglicans and Lutherans, to name a couple, believe in the RP and have doctrines of grace attached to the observances of a certain rites including this one.

As far as your argument goes, I would like to say that I can and have used virtually identical phraseology up to a certain point and arrived at the completely opposite conclusion. All those things Are Symbols- we are talking about a Passover Seder, after all. It comes but once a year, and the meal consists of nothing but symbols. So the symbols point to Jesus, but instead of a complete departure from that, I advocate continuity. Those things are Still Symbols, but instead of pointing ahead to Jesus, they point back.

Consider this, if you would. Zwingli centered his symbolic argument on the sense of the word “is”- what did Jesus really mean when He said “this IS my body?” I don’t want to rehash that. Instead, take a look at the preceding word- “This.” What is this?

Well, “this” is bread, specifically an unleavened wafer (unless you ask the Eastern Orthodox, I am told, but for the sake of discussion let’s continue to talk about a Passover Seder). “This” is not just bread for eating. On this night, what makes this bread and this wine different from food and beverage on any other night? (Sort of like one of the Four Questions). Well, on this night, the bread is a symbol. Its symbolic meaning (celebrated once yearly for the previous thousand-plus years) is of far greater significance than the fact that it’s food for you to eat.

So as you said (kind of), This bread is a symbol. Has been for a very long time, and that is your starting point. What it symbolizes has always been complex and varied- its symbolism is sharply divergent within the same meal. But it has always prefigured Jesus, it had always related to Him symbolically, and Jesus made that clear to His disciples. Meaning they understood that Jesus was equating the symbolic relevance of certain Seder elements with Himself- and He did this during a Seder just when they had been describing what all the symbolism meant, imagine that.

So this is quite a bit different from understanding Jesus to say that This piece of food has been transformed such that it is now my body, and in a sense you should regard it as being God in very nature. But I do believe my description is far more in keeping with the only thing Jesus’ disciples could have possibly understood Him to be saying.

 

[ffg]

Interesting second post, but I would say, if it was simply symbolic, many people wouldn’t have walked away from Jesus in John 6.

He didn’t explain the sacrament of the Eucharist and then say, whoa, whoa, whoa, don’t misunderstand me, I mean it as a symbol.

He said it, meant it, and people left.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Interesting second post, but I would say, if it was simply symbolic, many people wouldn’t have walked away from Jesus in John 6.

He didn’t explain the sacrament of the Eucharist and then say, whoa, whoa, whoa, don’t misunderstand me, I mean it as a symbol.

He said it, meant it, and people left.

As a matter of fact, he asked Peter if he was going to leave also.

He did not back down from what he said. He always explained the SYMBOLISM in his parables to his disciples, and if this was meant to be a symbol, then he certainly would have made that clear. Considering how important it would be for future generations.

No, he did not back down one bit. He actually reaffirms this when he asked Peter if he was going away also.

In faith it becomes real. For MY Body is real food and MY BLOOD is real drink.

The age of symbolism has been fulfilled.

This is they way it has been passed down through out the ages too, and there was never really a question about it until the reformation period.

Meaning the church always recognized this as real. One of the charges Nero had against Christians is they were viewed as cannibals. So we can see or assume how the early Christians (that would have included the actual disciples) were celebrating mass.

 

[ffg]

We should look at the Anti-God folks and consider their actions.

Satan worshippers don’t go steal a Eucharist from the protestant church to desecrate it.

They know the Truth better than a lot of Catholics in the power of the Eucharist and it’s graces.

Thus the desire (instruction from the devil?) to steal and desecrate it.

If it was a symbol, I think they would find something else to do.

On a different front, if it was a symbol, there would not be Eucharistic miracles.

There wasn’t only one Thomas. We are all him at various times and in various situations. Eucharistic miracles help us have stronger understanding of What we are dealing with in the Eucharist.

It should be noted that tests done on Eucharistic miracles always come up as heart tissue.

 

[Monergistic]

Interesting second post, but I would say, if it was simply symbolic, many people wouldn’t have walked away from Jesus in John 6.

He didn’t explain the sacrament of the Eucharist and then say, whoa, whoa, whoa, don’t misunderstand me, I mean it as a symbol.

He said it, meant it, and people left.

The argument does follow from point A to B to C, but I would disagree with the assessment that Jesus is describing the Eucharist in John 6. In terms of sheer proximity, I will also add that I have to question the decision to leave off with the symbolism of the Seder/Passover meal and slide over to a John 6 argument quite so soon. Jesus and His disciples were eating all the most important symbols of the Jewish faith, but as interesting as that is we don’t want to engage with that, so let’s escape to the comfort of John 6? I think I just saw that happen.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

The argument does follow from point A to B to C, but I would disagree with the assessment that Jesus is describing the Eucharist in John 6. In terms of sheer proximity, I will also add that I have to question the decision to leave off with the symbolism of the Seder/Passover meal and slide over to a John 6 argument quite so soon. Jesus and His disciples were eating all the most important symbols of the Jewish faith, but as interesting as that is we don’t want to engage with that, so let’s escape to the comfort of John 6? I think I just saw that happen.

John 6:32-71
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is [a]that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35** Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life;** he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying,** “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”**

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would **betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, [c]was going to betray Him.**

 

[CatholicKnight3]

"took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, ‘Take and eat; this is my body’" (Mt 26:26).

Then he raised the cup of wine, called the cup of blessing (the third cup), “gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you,** for this is my blood** of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins’” (Mt 26: 27, 28).

 

[CatholicKnight3]

1 Corinthians 10

14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the** bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? **17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

1 Corinthians 11

17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20 So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21 for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, **“This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” **25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

33 So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. 34 Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

And when I come I will give further directions.

 

[ffg]

The argument does follow from point A to B to C, but I would disagree with the assessment that Jesus is describing the Eucharist in John 6. In terms of sheer proximity, I will also add that I have to question the decision to leave off with the symbolism of the Seder/Passover meal and slide over to a John 6 argument quite so soon. Jesus and His disciples were eating all the most important symbols of the Jewish faith, but as interesting as that is we don’t want to engage with that, so let’s escape to the comfort of John 6? I think I just saw that happen.

Ok, should we go down the path of avoidance? Let’s talk about focussing on the word ‘This’ vs ‘is’ instead of the whole context of the situation?

How about we take him at the full text of the partial line (which is still out of context if you understand that the bible is multiple books that need to be puzzled together to get the clear picture) -

‘This is My Body’

Now let’s paraphase what he said previously 4 times without remorse - ‘you must eat me to have eternal life’.

So God tells people (us) we need to eat him, then provides the means in which to do so, with bread. Quite logical considering the same God created humans and knows how they feed themselves. Also, how bread seems to be a food that has been around for a long time and will always be around until the end of time.

Another part of Passover though is drinking - 4 cups, they get through 3 at the passover. Jesus is specific as to when the last cup will be shared. Then goes to the garden, prays that the CUP pass Him by, why? Maybe because He is filling it with His blood and that is a painful process?

Something that Jesus (100% God and 100% Human - with all the emotions and senses) would rather not do.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Ok, should we go down the path of avoidance? Let’s talk about focussing on the word ‘This’ vs ‘is’ instead of the whole context of the situation?

How about we take him at the full text of the partial line (which is still out of context if you understand that the bible is multiple books that need to be puzzled together to get the clear picture) -

‘This is My Body’

Now let’s paraphase what he said previously 4 times without remorse - ‘you must eat me to have eternal life’.

So God tells people (us) we need to eat him, then provides the means in which to do so, with bread. Quite logical considering the same God created humans and knows how they feed themselves. Also, how bread seems to be a food that has been around for a long time and will always be around until the end of time.

Another part of Passover though is drinking - 4 cups, they get through 3 at the passover. Jesus is specific as to when the last cup will be shared. Then goes to the garden, prays that the CUP pass Him by, why? Maybe because He is filling it with His blood and that is a painful process?

Something that Jesus (100% God and 100% Human - with all the emotions and senses) would rather not do.

Yes.

Also, during the original Passover, the Jews were instructed to cover their doors with the blood of the lamb. They were also told that must also eat the lamb. This is rather crucial.

 

[kd5glx]

The Eucharist and Sacrifice of the Mass are present realities, not just bare symbolic, abstract thoughts. The Jewish Passover has this characteristic also. Rabbi Yossi Kenigsberg explains:

Armstrong, D. (2011). Biblical Catholic Eucharistic Theology (167). Dave Armstrong.

The Haggadah then continues with a statement that is also found in the Mishnah that calls upon each participant in the Seder to share vicariously in the experience of the Exodus.

In every generation one is obliged to view oneself as though he [personally] had gone out from Egypt. As it is said: And thou shalt tell thy son in that day, saying: It is because of that which the Lord did for me when I came forth out of Egypt (Ex. 13:8).

The Haggadah then amplifies this teaching, providing an appropriate biblical prooftext in support of its elaboration.

The Holy One, blessed is He, did not redeem only our ancestors, but also redeemed us along with them. As it is said: And He brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which He swore unto our fathers. (Deut. 6:23).

… The Mishnah calls upon each participant in the Seder to make an intellectual leap across the millennia and thereby to share directly in the experience of their ancestors.

(A Passover Seder Companion and Analytic Introduction to the Haggadah, IUniverse, 2004, 104)

Rabbi Dan Fink provides another eloquent explanation:

Our sages taught: “In every generation, it is incumbent upon us to see ourselves as if we, too, went out from Egypt.” Pesach is not about remembering the distant past; it is about re-experiencing that past in the present time. It is not the story of our ancestors long ago; it is our story.

Armstrong, D. (2011). Biblical Catholic Eucharistic Theology (168–169). Dave Armstrong.

The Passover and the commanded Seder Meal was more than a mere symbol. It actually and very firmly caused each and every participant in every generation “to share directly in the experience of their ancestors.”

 

[kd5glx]

In the Holy Eucharist and the Sacrifice of the Mass we also are present and participate with Christ and with His Passion. We “remember” and in Biblical terms this is to make present in the here and now. We become One with Christ in His Sacrifice. We become One with Christ in His Life, Death, and Resurrection. We are molded into Christ by what we eat. Christ does not wish to give us a symbol. He wants to give Himself. Wholly, Fully, Completely, Substantially. Physically. He wants us to become Him. How can the Head discard the foot? The arm? The eyes? It is written that we are the Body of Christ and members thereof. Not spiritually only. Not symbolically. But actually.
Jesus Christ, my friend, my brother, and my God is 100% God and 100% Man.
He returned to Heaven and will forever more retain His 100% Man hood.
How could He then possibly give me His symbol to eat. And why for the life of Him who is in Me would He want to?

 

[st_julie]

Protestants are insistent that the EUCHARIST is a mere SYMBOL. (Some Catholics too)<

It is a matter of perspective. If referring to the Catholic EUCHARIST then they are wrong. However if the reference is understood about and judged by the Protestant EUCHARIST then indeed itheirs is a symbol.

 

[willitmatter]

Yes.

Also, during the original Passover, the Jews were instructed to cover their doors with the blood of the lamb. They were also told that must also eat the lamb. This is rather crucial.

well this debate wil go on until jesus returns–

2 of the ways Jesus spoke was in parables and prophecy, - " out of you belly (or inner most being) shall come rivers of running water–

But the “this is my body and blood” was always one of the harder things he spoke-- and his followers struggled with how to "correctly " apply it

so how has being filled with the Holy Spirit =-- been working out for you?