The one true church

[Abu]

Brandall #14
I do not understand this Catholic fascination with claiming they have the 1 true church.

In that case turn to the certainty of Christ Himself in establishing His Church – the Catholic Church as clearly mandated by Him – see post #11. No Protestant sect can say they “remained faithful to the teaching of the Apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread, and to the prayers.” (Acts 2:42), when they don’t have the Eucharist (Holy Mass), His seven sacraments, the primacy and infallibility of the pope, Her Tradition and Her Sacred Scriptures.

For the confused who don’t know the teaching of Christ through His Church and Her Scriptures and try to escape Her mandate from Christ:
As a companion of Christ, Saint John wrote: “And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by on, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.’ (Jn 21:25).

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." (2 Thess 2:15).

“Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard this rich trust with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.” (2 Tim 1:13-14). Again St Paul writes: “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2).

In Colossians 2: 4-23, St Paul calls on his flock to follow Christ “as you were taught” and warns against merely “human precepts and teachings.”

1 Cor 1:10: I urge you brothers, in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jn 4:6).

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14). Further, “For there will come a time when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but having itching ears, will heap up to themselves teachers according to their lusts. And they will turn away their hearing from the truth and turn aside rather to fables.” (2 Tim 4:3).

 

[Brandall]

What exactly do you expect to hear on a Catholic forum? Jesus founded a Church. We believe that Church to be the Catholic Church. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Do you expect to hear something different in RCIA?

I’m on the outside looking in at this point. I find some of the Catholic “table thumping points” as unattractive as I do other churches points (wrongly or rightly) against the Catholic Church. Members of the Catholic Church shouting “they’re wrong” while other churches are shouting, “no, they’re wrong”, while each side is waving their giant foam Jesus “we’re number 1” finger seems to not have much value.

 

[jmcrae]

So my questions is, doesn’t the church teach the Catholic religion is the one that was given to us by Christ and although there are a lot of protestants that have similar beliefs, it was never God’s will they separate from the church?

Angie

Yes it does, Angie.

Take a gold star and go to the top of the class - well done.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m on the outside looking in at this point. I find some of the Catholic “table thumping points” as unattractive as I do other churches points (wrongly or rightly) against the Catholic Church. Members of the Catholic Church shouting “they’re wrong” while other churches are shouting, “no, they’re wrong”, while each side is waving their giant foam Jesus “we’re number 1” finger seems to not have much value.

That isn’t what it’s about.

Rather, it is about the truth that Christ established a Church, and gave it to Peter. That Church is still here - and wouldn’t you think it’s important to know where that church is today?

Catholics are just making sure that people know where that Church went, and where they can find it, so that they can be part of it.

Far from being about “us vs. them” it’s far more about, “HEY, we have a feast over here! There’s enough for everyone in the whole world to be fed! Come and help us enjoy it!”

 

[StrawberryJam]

I’m on the outside looking in at this point. I find some of the Catholic “table thumping points” as unattractive as I do other churches points (wrongly or rightly) against the Catholic Church. Members of the Catholic Church shouting “they’re wrong” while other churches are shouting, “no, they’re wrong”, while each side is waving their giant foam Jesus “we’re number 1” finger seems to not have much value.

I agree, but from a standpoint of a Catholic in a Catholic Church being open minded to the Catholic Church not being the one true Church… I can’t see how this is what the Catholic Church actually teaches.
Right or wrong, this is what the Catholic Church teaches.

They do teach a lot about their seperated bretheren.

This upsets the Orthodox Christians, and many others.

But this is what I have observed and leared over the time I have been around. Under guidance of a priest, and with many hours of my life spent in church as an observer. Many hours of my life reading about the Church. I still know very little about her.

 

[Abu]

Brandall #22
I’m on the outside looking in at this point. I find some of the Catholic “table thumping points” as unattractive as I do other churches points (wrongly or rightly) against the Catholic Church. Members of the Catholic Church shouting “they’re wrong” while other churches are shouting, “no, they’re wrong”, while each side is waving their giant foam Jesus “we’re number 1” finger seems to not have much value.

Then you know little of the teaching of Jesus, which you now have the opportunity to learn, especially His admonition to His very own, like some people who really make their own trouble, and seem to deserve Christ’s admonition to His Apostles. Until and unless you listen to Christ through His Church you may be in the same boat as His Apostles in earlier days – to His own Apostles, “whom He loved to the end” Jesus exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 8:17-18) (Frank Sheed, Christ In Eclipse, Sheed & Ward 1978, p 40). "With individuals He was very much the doctor with a duty not only to tell them what was wrong with them, but to make sure they realized it.” (Ibid. p 40-41).

Further, having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, on whom He founded His Church, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20).

She is informing all, as part of Her teaching, that there is a judgment from Christ based on His teaching as He has founded Her to so do.

God does not do anything that doesn’t make sense; otherwise He would not be God. We have to seek to understand.

We know that the Son of God “did not leave us orphans”. He founded only one Church with His full authority, and just as a man betrayed Him, Judas one of His chosen, so have others defied His Will (Acts of the Apostles), to the extent of forming their own sects, although many don’t realise their errors.

 

[Brandall]

That isn’t what it’s about.

Rather, it is about the truth that Christ established a Church, and gave it to Peter. That Church is still here - and wouldn’t you think it’s important to know where that church is today?

Catholics are just making sure that people know where that Church went, and where they can find it, so that they can be part of it.

Far from being about “us vs. them” it’s far more about, “HEY, we have a feast over here! There’s enough for everyone in the whole world to be fed! Come and help us enjoy it!”

I like the way you put that and when I’m at mass, that’s the way I feel. My soul is nourished so far beyond what it was fed anywhere else. However, there are those that aren’t nearly as pure in their feelings about it as you have put it.

It’s my belief that any christian that researches the Catholic church will be mesmerized with what they find. It is easy to find the beliefs, regarding the church, they have, are mere myth. If anyone wants to argue against the church, once I’m in full communion, I’ll give them the link for the CCC online. After they’ve read that, I’ll be willing to discuss it with them.

Maybe it’s the nearly 1000 and 500 years of the church having to defend her practices that have made some members of the church seem so defensive. This concept of “defending the faith” gets taken to the extreme. I’m certain that every church that I’ve ever attended, thought they were “doing it right”, the way god intended. None of them spent any time talking about that or criticizing the way other’s worshiped.

We’re not talking about a debate where the winner gets a prize. We’re talking about the trinity leading us to perfection. We’re talking about being obedient to god and providing a holiness and an example to others. We’re talking about loving our fellow man and the spirit using us to show god to others. I’m confused as how the “first”, “true”, “our bible”, “schismatics”, “heretics”, etc., accomplishes any of that.

…

 

[johnnyc176]

Maybe it’s the nearly 1000 and 500 years of the church having to defend her practices that have made some members of the church seem so defensive. This concept of “defending the faith” gets taken to the extreme. I’m certain that every church that I’ve ever attended, thought they were “doing it right”, the way god intended. None of them spent any time talking about that or criticizing the way other’s worshiped.

I wasn’t defending the Faith. I was proclaiming the Truth.

 

[Anglewannabe]

We’re not talking about a debate where the winner gets a prize. We’re talking about the trinity leading us to perfection. We’re talking about being obedient to god and providing a holiness and an example to others. We’re talking about loving our fellow man and the spirit using us to show god to others. I’m confused as how the “first”, “true”, “our bible”, “schismatics”, “heretics”, etc., accomplishes any of that.

…

Being led to perfection** is **the goal. And Jesus gave us the church with all the sacraments. When Jesus left us, he promised to take care of His church until the end of times. There was no need for Martin Luther or the King of England to break away from the perfection Jesus gave us. Yet they did and now do not have the fullness of the faith.

As for saying we are right and the others are wrong… Anyone who regularly attends the same church denomination is doing that with their actions. A logical person would go to the church they believe in. Well… if someone believes in one church by default it means they believe the other one is not 100% right.

And as long as I am standing in a Catholic church, just because some protestant walks into the room, I am not going to sugar coat the teachings of the church just to make someone feel welcome. Never in my wildest dreams would I walk into a protestant church and expect them to change their beliefs just because I am in the room

 

[Abu]

Brandall #27
We’re talking about loving our fellow man and the spirit using us to show god to others. I’m confused as how the “first”, “true”, “our bible”, “schismatics”, “heretics”, etc., accomplishes any of that.

Then penetrate your cloud of confusion by ceasing to evade Christ’s answers. It is only by trying to be Christ-like – by following His teaching and His Church – so clearly given to us by His St Peter, His Supreme Vicar, and His Apostles and their legitimate successors that we can help others to the fullness of His truth, expressing His true love and caring. The added result of vaunted error is the misleading of others.

The authority of the Pope is that of Christ. Of him Christ said, “He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me.” (Lk. 10:16). Again, Christ said, “If a man will not hear the Church, let him be as the heathen and a publican.” (Matt. 18:17). Our Lord could never have commanded men to obey two conflicting authorities. That would spell chaos. So it is high time that you gave up trying to please two masters – Christ and those in error. “You cannot serve God and mammon.” (Lk 16:13).

How can anyone “show God to others” and claim to ““love” their fellowman sincerely by knowingly rejecting His express command and ridiculing His Church?

You seem to learn nothing from the reality offered to you.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Then penetrate your cloud of confusion by ceasing to evade Christ’s answers. It is only by trying to be Christ-like – by following His teaching and His Church – so clearly given to us by His St Peter, His Supreme Vicar, and His Apostles and their legitimate successors that we can help others to the fullness of His truth, expressing His true love and caring. The added result of vaunted error is the misleading of others.

The authority of the Pope is that of Christ. Of him Christ said, “He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me.” (Lk. 10:16). Again, Christ said, “If a man will not hear the Church, let him be as the heathen and a publican.” (Matt. 18:17). Our Lord could never have commanded men to obey two conflicting authorities. That would spell chaos. So it is high time that you gave up trying to please two masters – Christ and those in error. “You cannot serve God and mammon.” (Lk 16:13).

How can anyone “show God to others” and claim to ““love” their fellowman sincerely by knowingly rejecting His express command and ridiculing His Church?

You seem to learn nothing from the reality offered to you.

The reality offered to him or her.

Tell him or her the story they must believe and all of it before you condem anyone from reservations.

 

[Abu]

Brandall
Where in the Protestant sects will you find the Eucharist (Holy Mass), Christ’s seven sacraments, the primacy and infallibility of His Pope, Her Tradition and the fullness of Her Sacred Scriptures?

Where in the Protestant sects will you find the doctrine of Purgatory in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Brandall
Where in the Protestant sects will you find the Eucharist (Holy Mass), Christ’s seven sacraments, the primacy and infallibility of His Pope, Her Tradition and the fullness of Her Sacred Scriptures?

Where in the Protestant sects will you find the doctrine of Purgatory in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”?

Show them a reason don’t just tell them they must believe it!

 

[Brandall]

Then penetrate your cloud of confusion by ceasing to evade Christ’s answers. It is only by trying to be Christ-like – by following His teaching and His Church – so clearly given to us by His St Peter, His Supreme Vicar, and His Apostles and their legitimate successors that we can help others to the fullness of His truth, expressing His true love and caring. The added result of vaunted error is the misleading of others.

The authority of the Pope is that of Christ. Of him Christ said, “He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me.” (Lk. 10:16). Again, Christ said, “If a man will not hear the Church, let him be as the heathen and a publican.” (Matt. 18:17). Our Lord could never have commanded men to obey two conflicting authorities. That would spell chaos. So it is high time that you gave up trying to please two masters – Christ and those in error. “You cannot serve God and mammon.” (Lk 16:13).

How can anyone “show God to others” and claim to ““love” their fellowman sincerely by knowingly rejecting His express command and ridiculing His Church?

You seem to learn nothing from the reality offered to you.

After several rewrites, this is as charitable as I can be. I’m glad you’re not the only example of the Catholic Church I’ve seen or I wouldn’t even consider it.

 

[Abu]

The revered Fr James V Schall, S.J., explains the reality: “…the major problem for apologists today is not the truth of what is to be held but the inability of the hearers to listen. I suggest that a major justification for this inability or unwillingness to listen is the multiplicity of divergent and often contradictory voices, some even from bishops, that come from those who claim to believe.” *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House, 1994, p 125].

If there is dissent from any of the teaching of Christ’s own Church then those so afflicted are unable in the area of their infidelity to help others to the truth. The information is flawed – the education is flawed. They will be disinformed, malformed, without clear direction – strong and vibrantly wrong.

St John is a good example of the ways of Jesus as the Way, apparently unknown, like much else, to many. John “had met the hard firmness three times: when he and his brother asked for high places in Christ’s kingdom, his ambition was tossed back on him so decisively (Mk 10:35-41); when he wanted fire from heaven to consume a Samaritan city which would not receive Christ, he was rebuked, ‘You do not know what manner of spirit you are, for the Son of man came not to destroy men’s lives but to save them’ (Lk 9:56); when he asked how Peter was to die he was told in effect to mind his own business (Jn 21:22).”

The forgotten reality that is Jesus of Nazareth is given by the great Frank Sheed:
“Certainly, some people who knew Christ in His lifetime would have been startled to find so much made of His loving kindness, indeed might have wondered if you were talking of the same person.”

Frank Sheed points out that Jesus was simply not given to sentimental utterances, and we have just seen how he handled John. Jesus shows plenty of the emotions of anger and grief – at those who accused Him of breaking the Sabbath when he healed (Mk 3:5). We never see Him smile, and His settled habit was terseness of speech. He made it His duty to tell people what was wrong with them, and made sure they realised it.

He refers us to the Gentile woman who “must have felt His ‘Do you want Me to take the bread of the children and give it to dogs?’ as an assertion of her inferiority as a Gentile:…did she feel Him loving?” (Mk 7:25)

So much for the false “acceptance” so often attributed to the Christ who told the woman taken in adultery to “sin no more” as she had breached the sixth commandment – which ensured that she paid more attention to the law. (Jn 8:3-11).

On the multitude however “he had compassion, for they were helpless and harassed like sheep without a shepherd.” (Mt 9:36). So, beware of the wolves in sheep’s clothing.

That’s why faithful Catholics don’t disregard faithful bishops; they heed them and follow them, for to follow Christ is to heed and accept His Church – “if you love Me, keep My Commandments”, for He is the Way the Truth and the Life.
[See *Christ In Eclipse, Frank Sheed, Sheed & Ward, 1978, p 40-41].

Until one is able to take off the blinkers and assent to all of Christ’s teaching through His Church that person will remain in a haze over what Christ really teaches.

 

[johnnyc176]

The revered Fr James V Schall, S.J., explains the reality: “…the major problem for apologists today is not the truth of what is to be held but the inability of the hearers to listen. I suggest that a major justification for this inability or unwillingness to listen is the multiplicity of divergent and often contradictory voices, some even from bishops, that come from those who claim to believe.” *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House, 1994, p 125].

If there is dissent from any of the teaching of Christ’s own Church then those so afflicted are unable in the area of their infidelity to help others to the truth. The information is flawed – the education is flawed. They will be disinformed, malformed, without clear direction – strong and vibrantly wrong.

St John is a good example of the ways of Jesus as the Way, apparently unknown, like much else, to many. John “had met the hard firmness three times: when he and his brother asked for high places in Christ’s kingdom, his ambition was tossed back on him so decisively (Mk 10:35-41); when he wanted fire from heaven to consume a Samaritan city which would not receive Christ, he was rebuked, ‘You do not know what manner of spirit you are, for the Son of man came not to destroy men’s lives but to save them’ (Lk 9:56); when he asked how Peter was to die he was told in effect to mind his own business (Jn 21:22).”

The forgotten reality that is Jesus of Nazareth is given by the great Frank Sheed:
“Certainly, some people who knew Christ in His lifetime would have been startled to find so much made of His loving kindness, indeed might have wondered if you were talking of the same person.”

Frank Sheed points out that Jesus was simply not given to sentimental utterances, and we have just seen how he handled John. Jesus shows plenty of the emotions of anger and grief – at those who accused Him of breaking the Sabbath when he healed (Mk 3:5). We never see Him smile, and His settled habit was terseness of speech. He made it His duty to tell people what was wrong with them, and made sure they realised it.

He refers us to the Gentile woman who “must have felt His ‘Do you want Me to take the bread of the children and give it to dogs?’ as an assertion of her inferiority as a Gentile:…did she feel Him loving?” (Mk 7:25)

So much for the false “acceptance” so often attributed to the Christ who told the woman taken in adultery to “sin no more” as she had breached the sixth commandment – which ensured that she paid more attention to the law. (Jn 8:3-11).

On the multitude however “he had compassion, for they were helpless and harassed like sheep without a shepherd.” (Mt 9:36). So, beware of the wolves in sheep’s clothing.

That’s why faithful Catholics don’t disregard faithful bishops; they heed them and follow them, for to follow Christ is to heed and accept His Church – “if you love Me, keep My Commandments”, for He is the Way the Truth and the Life.
[See *Christ In Eclipse

, Frank Sheed, Sheed & Ward, 1978, p 40-41].

Until one is able to take off the blinkers and assent to all of Christ’s teaching through His Church that person will remain in a haze over what Christ really teaches.

Good stuff Abu also…any mention of Frank Sheed deserves this:thumbsup:

 

[gavin0708]

Catholic Church not a true church established by Jesus Christ. The True Church is the Church of Christ and can be read in the bible unlike the word “Catholic” is purely invented by St. Ignatius of Antioch. Even the word Trinity is hard to prove cause it is not written in the holy scriptures.

 

[LionHeart777]

Catholic Church not a true church established by Jesus Christ. The True Church is the Church of Christ and can be read in the bible unlike the word “Catholic” is purely invented by St. Ignatius of Antioch. Even the word Trinity is hard to prove cause it is not written in the holy scriptures.

St. Ignatius seems to take for granted that his readers know what he is talking about when he uses the term. What is more, St. Ignatius was in communion with St. Polycarp, who was ordained by the Apostle John (see his letter to Polycarp.) It would be an injustice to the Apostle John to think that he broke away and started his own church and was not part of the one Church Christ founded, wouldn’t it? And we know from St. Ignatius’ letters that both he and St. Polycarp were in communion with Rome, where the successor of St. Peter resides, upon whom the true Church of Christ (i.e. the Catholic Church) was founded (Mt. 16:18-19).

 

[Abu]

Not knowing that the word “Catholic’ (Greek, katholike) means “general or “universal” and by the end of the second century meant extended throughout the known world, and by that time it also meant “orthodox” as being faithful to the teachings of Christ, shows a lack of general understanding of Christianity.

Of course not knowing that the New Testament was written by those in the Church established by Christ, who had installed St Peter as His Supreme Vicar, gavin0708 (#36) is also quite unable to reasonably explain why the Protestant sects don’t have:

1. The Eucharist (Holy Mass), Christ’s seven sacraments, the primacy and infallibility of His Pope, Her Tradition and all of Her Sacred Scriptures.
2. The doctrine of Purgatory in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”

 

[Anglewannabe]

Catholic Church not a true church established by Jesus Christ. The True Church is the Church of Christ and can be read in the bible unlike the word “Catholic” is purely invented by St. Ignatius of Antioch. Even the word Trinity is hard to prove cause it is not written in the holy scriptures.

You have got to be kidding me. You can really think the bible is the only source. Jesus didn’t die on the cross, raise from the dead, spend 40 days with the apostles and on the 41 first day after Jesus was no longer on earth, a bible just appeared out of no where

The bible did not exist until 400 years after Jesus died. The Church had to rely on the oral teachings pass down from generation to generation which He promised to make sure were kept true by the popes. This is why oral teachings that are divinely protected by the Church Jesus established are acceptable sources as well.

Just curious, but if I am wrong, for the first 400 years before the bible existed, were did Christians get their information?