The only singing I hear at Mass comes from cantors

[jc-servant]

The congregation does not like Marty Haugen’s We Are Many Parts, probably because it sounds more like a chuckwagon song sung on the prairie than a song suitable for mass.

Too funny. Hey, I’m from the prairies of Oklahoma originally. We don’t want this thing either. I thought this sounded like a song from a luau when we sang it. Absent the words I can totally hear the slack key guitar playing and the grass skirts swishing because of the harmony used. I don’t usually complain about the musical choices but this is an odd song.

Luckily at my parish most of the people sing no matter which mass it is and no matter the mass parts used or hymns selected. I think participation in the liturgy goes far deeper than these superficial things to the heart of the faith in the people. Since we have so many people who have been through CRHP, they participate fully no matter the distractions, poor song choices, bizarre homilies, etc.

 

[lak611]

Too funny. Hey, I’m from the prairies of Oklahoma originally. We don’t want this thing either. I thought this sounded like a song from a luau when we sang it. Absent the words I can totally hear the slack key guitar playing and the grass skirts swishing because of the harmony used. I don’t usually complain about the musical choices but this is an odd song.

It sounds like something more appropriate for a Jimmy Buffett concert than for a Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

That is beautiful. It sounds too complex for use for congregational singing, though. Even a choir would have to be well-trained to pull it off.

Actually, not necessarily true. Our Cathedral choir is volunteer with only a few actual musicians. My husband is one of those musicians and I was also one before I resigned to pursue other musical opportunities outside of the Church. One of the pieces they do sing is the “Sicut Cervus”. If the choir director is worth his weight, he/she will be able to get even a volunteer choir sound good with Palestrina, Tallis, Byrd, etc. They may not sound like a paid choir of well-trained musicians nor like the Tallis scholars, but they still sound lovely.

The “Sicut Cervus” is also one of my favorites (I’m a mezzo-soprano and would sing alto on this when I used to sing in choirs) and actually asked the choir to sing it as one of the preludes for my wedding. The choir also did the Palestrina “Missa Aeterna Christi Munera” for the Kyrie, Gloria and Agnus Dei. They also sang Tallis’s “A New Commandment”, “Ave Verum Corpus” by Faure for SA parts (fairly easy), Mozart’s “Laudate Dominum” as well as the Latin Gregorian chants for the acclamations and Our Father.

You are correct that a congregation would not be able to sing these. They were composed for choir, not a congregation. BUT the congregation can definitely sing the chants.

 

[Sarabande]

try taking away the microphones from the choir, putting them in a loft, using good hymnals with simple intuitive tunes (aka “churchy music”, and chanting mass parts.

They have microphones for choirs?!?!? Our choir of about 30 voices sings in a choir loft at the back of the Cathedral and they can be heard loud and clear all the way up at the sanctuary without a microphone - even when they sing softly. I guess good architectural design? It’s an old Cathedral and prior to modern day, I suppose architects designed churches and cathedrals for good acoustics since there was no such thing as amplification. Even when I am singing a classical composition for a wedding or singing for a sacred music concert, I don’t need to use a microphone. It’s just the natural sound of the voice echoing across the room. Are the newer churches employing microphones now for choirs? That is so strange and foreign to me? I’m not saying it’s bad, but I don’t know why you would need mics when you have so many voices filling up the room. Are people that accustomed to amplified voices rather than the natural sound of a voice now?

 

[JButky]

They have microphones for choirs?!?!?

Yep:

choir mic description

The decision as to whether to use mics such as these or not has a lot to do with the specifics of the space itself. Trained voices in an excellent acoustic space are just fine without mics. But untrained singers and bad acoustical environments can use a little help. Most sound engineers have ZERO concept on how to design a system appropriate for liturgical use. Someone should introduce these designers to the concept of antiphonal singing and they might begin to understand a proper sound system for churches. That and the term sound “reinforcement” should be reintroduced to them rather than the trend of sound “amplification”

There are way too many “amplification” models used for choirs and cantors.

Joe B

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

They have microphones for choirs?!?!? Our choir of about 30 voices sings in a choir loft at the back of the Cathedral and they can be heard loud and clear all the way up at the sanctuary without a microphone - even when they sing softly. I guess good architectural design? It’s an old Cathedral and prior to modern day, I suppose architects designed churches and cathedrals for good acoustics since there was no such thing as amplification.

My church is similar – a large, Gothic-style building. The choir loft is four stories up, and the acoustics are amazing – it always sounds as if there are twice as many people singing as are actually up there.

In my previous parish, the church was a new building. The choir "area’ was a little nook off to the side, at the front of the church (the church had pews in one of those fan-shaped arrangements). The acoustics there were just terrible; no matter how loudly we sang, the sound just got swallowed up. We had to have microphones to be heard at all. And if we actually stayed in the pews in the nook (rather than coming out a bit in front of it), even microphones didn’t help.

My choir is also volunteer (and non-auditioned) with a few musicians in it, and we manage to sing Palestrina, even with not all the members being very good at reading music. We manage, just as I manage to sing in French (on the occasions we do so), even though I don’t know the language.

Mudgie-in-training and freelance sparkle/coffee grinds sprinkler

 

[baltobetsy]

*aside
I just came home from a recording session where we did the Palestrina Sicut Cervus. We had to do it five times. More than any other piece tonight.

OK, resume the discussion!

Betsy

 

[pprimeau1976]

About Mic Systems…

My Church regretfully uses a mic system. It is a pain because the microphones are placed and you often have to place people based on the strength of their voice in order to get a good balance. This always poses a problem, especially when people are absent on any given Sunday. The problem is not the mic system, it is poor acoustics.

This is due to the construction of the Church and many churches built in the 50’s (at least where I am from). My Church was built in 1957 and at the time the Church was built, the goal was to have a Church, a school, and a gym. The plans were to build the gym and use the gym building as a church, build the school, then build a great big church and then use the gym building as a gym. Once Vatican II hit, plans on building the great big churches were put on the back burner. People actually thought you could have a gym for a church! Plus, they choose to carpet these churches which is NUTS!

Our church is typically crowded and we are running out of space. So, I am dropping subtle hints…a new Church would look good.

 

[Beno]

They have microphones for choirs?!?!?

I’ll add to these other posters about church acoustics and microphones. At one of my churches, there was a perfectly good medium size parish church (about 300 people) with wooden pews, hard tile floors, wooden ceiling, and a choir loft in the back. Microphones for music were not needed until after the renovation. That’s when they lowered the ceiling for AC duct work, put in acoustical ceiling tiles, walled off 2/3’s of the choir loft, carpeted all floors, scrapped the wood pews and purchased new fabric padded pews. This comfortable setting absolutely killed the previously adequate acoustical environment. The assembly would no longer sing because each person could no longer hear anyone but themselves. Additionally, the choir had to be miked to be heard, and then everyone got to hear through the speakers in the ceiling every bit of noise made by the paper shuffling choir members using metal folding chairs. Some solutions only create other problems.

 

[VociMike]

I have heard that Palestrina is too complex for a congregation to sing and only suitable for a choir. I have never heard any of his compositions, though. Nor have I seen the sheet music, so I cannot say how complex the music is.

Apropos of this (not correcting anything you said, just commenting on the “congregation” vs. “choir” matter), here’s what Cardinal Ratzinger says in his book “A New Song for the Lord”:

“the choir, in other words, is not related to a listening congregation as it is to a concert audience which allows something to be performed for it. Rather the choir is itself part of the congregation and sings for it as legitimate delegate.” The concept of “delegation” is one of the basic categories of all Christian faith, and it applies to all levels of faith-filled reality, and precisely for this reason is also essential in the liturgical assembly.

The insight that we are dealing here with delegation, in fact resolves the apparent conflict of opposites. The choir acts on behalf of the others and includes them in the purpose of its own action. Through the singing of the choir, everyone can be conducted into the great liturgy of the communion of saints and thus into that interior prayer which pulls our hearts on high and permits us to join with the heavenly Jerusalem in a manner far beyond all earthly expectations.

Oh, and regarding sheet music, Choral Public Domain Library is your friend!

 

[Windmill]

I second the Choral Public Domain Library.

I read somewhere, I’m not sure if it was in a book-on-a-toilet kind of thing like “Life’s Little Instruction Book” that said:

“Avoid churches where the seats are padded.”