The only singing I hear at Mass comes from cantors

[pprimeau1976]

I’m a cantor and I really don’t care if the congregation sings or not. Actually, I get annoyed when the congregation sings too loud because there are 100+ voices singing in my direction and as a result, I can barely hear myself sing, which then raises the possibility that I will go off pitch and make the song sound horrible.

I agree with the comments about the choir/cantor performing. But the location of the choir/cantor does not turn it into a performance but rather, it’s the style of music. For the times when the congregation should sing, our music director will pick the songs they love to sing. They are often an ecclectic mixture of classic and contemporary music. For example for the parts of the mass, he will chose contemporary pieces like Marty Haugen’s *Mass of Creation *(which sounds best with a pipe organ and a brass section, btw). He also will choose hymns set to classic tunes, such as Beethoven’s *Ode To Joy *or Holst’s The Planets. For some reason, the congregation loves to sing these.

For times when the congregation is not encouraged to sing, like after communion, he will choose classic pieces like Mozart’s Ave Verum, or even Ave Maria by Franz Biebel. He will also choose contemporary songs as well, such as One Bread, One Body by John Foley. Obviously, these pieces aren’t meant to be sung entirely by the congregation, but to aid the congregation’s prayer.

However, our director strikes out occasionally. The congregation does not like Marty Haugen’s We Are Many Parts, probably because it sounds more like a chuckwagon song sung on the prairie than a song suitable for mass. Another tune the congregation does not sing (and this really gets my goat) is *The Lord’s Prayer. *Instead of the chanted version that everybody knows, he prefers a version that people choose not to sing. It’s a beautiful piece of music, and it does not alter the GIRM in anyway with the exception that the people do not participate. That is the part of the mass that the congregation should participate in!!

 

[lak611]

Another tune the congregation does not sing (and this really gets my goat) is *The Lord’s Prayer. *Instead of the chanted version that everybody knows, he prefers a version that people choose not to sing. It’s a beautiful piece of music, and it does not alter the GIRM in anyway with the exception that the people do not participate. That is the part of the mass that the congregation should participate in!!

Does the music director notice that his choice of music causes the congregation to choose not to sing? Why not stick to the chanted version if the congregation will sing it?

 

[Sarabande]

I’m a cantor and I really don’t care if the congregation sings or not. Actually, I get annoyed when the congregation sings too loud because there are 100+ voices singing in my direction and as a result, I can barely hear myself sing, which then raises the possibility that I will go off pitch and make the song sound horrible.

Instead of the chanted version that everybody knows, he prefers a version that people choose not to sing. It’s a beautiful piece of music, and it does not alter the GIRM in anyway with the exception that the people do not participate. That is the part of the mass that the congregation should participate in!!

I don’t know if this will help. I’m assuming that you can read music and have been or are in the process of vocal training. This is what has helped me when performing with choirs, operas, concerts, duet recitals and cantoring:

For me, singing is very organic and spiritual as well as technical. The organic and technical part comes into play especially when you run into problems like not being able to hear yourself from the outside when there are many other voices there or when the other voices you hear are all in different keys or wrong pitches. I have been trained to hear the notes mentally from the inside. It’s a constant practice to make sure you are a rock when making music. I mentally pitch the notes so that no matter what is going on outside, I will always be in key. If you can read music and are sight-reading it, this especially helps. Where I cantor at the Cathedral, either in the chapel or in the Cathedral, sometimes there are dual masses occurring and if you are not focused, hearing totally different music in the one room against what you are supposed to sing in your room, can throw you off. So mental pitching and hearing is very helpful – also helpful when you have a priest who loves to sing, but not well, and he’s belting away behind you with wrong pitches and rhythms.  Anyway, hope you can try it and see if it helps.

Also, were you talking about Malotte’s “The Lord’s Prayer”? If it is, I thought that was a Protestant version of the Our Father. I didn’t think that is permitted to be sung during the Our Father (we aren’t supposed to do it in our diocese), but I could be wrong with that.

 

[lak611]

Also, were you talking about Malotte’s “The Lord’s Prayer”? If it is, I thought that was a Protestant version of the Our Father. I didn’t think that is permitted to be sung during the Our Father (we aren’t supposed to do it in our diocese), but I could be wrong with that.

Which version is this? Do you have any links to it? Is it the one commonly sung in Lutheran services? If that is the one, I do know it, since I have been to Lutheran services.

 

[DobleGG]

I don’t agree with the cantor singing and the congregation repeating. I feel like a parrot. When we come together to celebrate Mass, united we are all invited to worship God in prayer and song. For example, when the cantor sings the “Gloria” and the congregation just repeats or chimes in on the refrain…now that burns me up. I mean I’ve know the prayer since I was a child. I don’t need someone to sing it to me while I stand and watch.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Does the music director notice that his choice of music causes the congregation to choose not to sing? Why not stick to the chanted version if the congregation will sing it?

I don’t think the congregation does not sing out of protest. I think they don’t sing because it’s a beautiful song and they like to hear the choir sing it. I like singing it myself but when I see the congregation not moving their lips, but looking at us, I start to wonder if we should be singing this particular version.

I have many ideas on how things should be, but the music director gets irritated sometimes when I suggest things.

 

[Sarabande]

P.S. And please don’t take this the wrong way, but as a cantor we’re supposed to help lead the congregation to sing for the congregational parts. If people are singing because of your help and the help of the other musicians on staff, you are doing your job – at least for a Novus Ordo mass. If the cantor isn’t there to help lead the singing for the congregation, then there is something wrong. What is he or she there for, then? The cantor would be more like a soloist, instead of a cantor. I find a soloist appropriate during mass when he/she is singing for a part of a choral work, like a complete mass, or during a motet, or maybe as a meditation piece after the communion. I’ve done both, but when I cantor, I only cantor and do not treat it like a soloist position. And if I really want to be a “soloist” i.e. the diva of the evening (Ha! Ha!), I do it for secular events, but never during a sacred event.

Again, I’m not saying that is what you are feeling. Actually, I’m fairly certain you didn’t mean it in that regard, but the way you worded your first comment, kind of came off that way.

 

[Sarabande]

I don’t agree with the cantor singing and the congregation repeating. I feel like a parrot. When we come together to celebrate Mass, united we are all invited to worship God in prayer and song. For example, when the cantor sings the “Gloria” and the congregation just repeats or chimes in on the refrain…now that burns me up. I mean I’ve know the prayer since I was a child. I don’t need someone to sing it to me while I stand and watch.

Yes, I would agree with that. I can’t remember the “composer’s” name, but one comes into my mind that is so annoying. I’m not crazy about the Alstott Heritage Gloria, but the congregation do sing it. If the congregation doesn’t have to sing, I prefer mostly during Latin NO, the choir singing a Palestrina Kyrie and Gloria. Or during a regular English NO High mass the Batten Gloria. They’re glorious and certainly help in bringing me more centered in prayer and spirituality.

 

[pprimeau1976]

I don’t know if this will help. I’m assuming that you can read music and have been or are in the process of vocal training. This is what has helped me when performing with choirs, operas, concerts, duet recitals and cantoring:

For me, singing is very organic and spiritual as well as technical. The organic and technical part comes into play especially when you run into problems like not being able to hear yourself from the outside when there are many other voices there or when the other voices you hear are all in different keys or wrong pitches. I have been trained to hear the notes mentally from the inside. It’s a constant practice to make sure you are a rock when making music. I mentally pitch the notes so that no matter what is going on outside, I will always be in key. If you can read music and are sight-reading it, this especially helps. Where I cantor at the Cathedral, either in the chapel or in the Cathedral, sometimes there are dual masses occurring and if you are not focused, hearing totally different music in the one room against what you are supposed to sing in your room, can throw you off. So mental pitching and hearing is very helpful – also helpful when you have a priest who loves to sing, but not well, and he’s belting away behind you with wrong pitches and rhythms.  Anyway, hope you can try it and see if it helps.

Also, were you talking about Malotte’s “The Lord’s Prayer”? If it is, I thought that was a Protestant version of the Our Father. I didn’t think that is permitted to be sung during the Our Father (we aren’t supposed to do it in our diocese), but I could be wrong with that.

I’ve been Cantoring since I was 15, so that’s 16 years so far. I don’t sing at a Cathedral, but I did sing at a church once where the acoustics were very cathedral-like and echoed. In addition, the organist was in a choir loft and I led the songs from the front. There were no monitors at all to help me, so I had to sing against the congregation and against an organ that echoed. Nobody complained about me being off pitch, or missing a tempo, but I always had this fear of going off pitch.

What I ended up doing was to plug my ear using one one of Mack’s Pillow Soft earplugs. These are the ones that are like silly putty, so I could discretely plug my ear without anyone noticing. It worked, as I could hear myself much better. I found out later that it was a dangerous practice, so I stopped.

What I do now is mentally pitch the notes as you suggested. This helps with my cantoring, plus it helps me when I sing in the choir as well, as there is always some “cruller” who sounds like a drone bass.

 

[Sarabande]

I’ve been Cantoring since I was 15, so that’s 16 years so far. I don’t sing at a Cathedral, but I did sing at a church once where the acoustics were very cathedral-like and echoed. In addition, the organist was in a choir loft and I led the songs from the front. There were no monitors at all to help me, so I had to sing against the congregation and against an organ that echoed. Nobody complained about me being off pitch, or missing a tempo, but I always had this fear of going off pitch.

That’s around the same age I started cantoring as well.
I totally understand the problems with the delay when cantoring with the organ from the back. We cantor from the front as well at the Cathedral, except during weddings and funerals, thank goodness. What we’ve come up with to make sure that we are both in line with each other as well as not slow things down, is to always be slightly ahead of each other. Talk about totally going against all the music theory training you’ve ever had! It works, but was very disconcerting at first when I wasn’t used to it.

What I do now is mentally pitch the notes as you suggested. This helps with my cantoring, plus it helps me when I sing in the choir as well, as there is always some “cruller” who sounds like a drone bass.

I’m glad that works for you too!!! We have an opera singer wannabe in the congregation once in a while who tries to outsing everyone. When I’m not focused, it’s quite amusing. I don’t bother singing louder, though, (I don’t like singing loudly into microphones - to me it’s offensive) because she has a huge voice and could probably be a Wagnerian soprano because it is a decent voice. She will actually try to outsing the sound system!!! It’s amazing. So, I back off and use the mental pitching that we are talking about and hope the congregation will try to sing along. At least she sings in pitch and has a decent sound, but it seems like she just likes the sound of her own voice.

 

[pprimeau1976]

The version of The Lord’s Prayer is by Steven C. Warner. A sampling of the tune can be played here (wav format).

 

[Angel_Bradford]

My pastor recently commented that getting Catholics to sing is like asking us to deny our nationality.

 

[Windmill]

try taking away the microphones from the choir, putting them in a loft, using good hymnals with simple intuitive tunes (aka “churchy music”, and chanting mass parts.

I recommend the Adoremus Hymnal.

 

[pprimeau1976]

try taking away the microphones from the choir, putting them in a loft, using good hymnals with simple intuitive tunes (aka “churchy music”, and chanting mass parts.

I recommend the Adoremus Hymnal.

I have seen this hymnal and I agree it is a good one. My only concern would be to find better arrangements for some of the songs. I am not talking about singing Pange Lingua to a guitar, but maybe the use of bells and *a capella *voices with the occasional harmony.

Have you ever listened to Palestrina?

 

[lak611]

I have seen this hymnal and I agree it is a good one. My only concern would be to find better arrangements for some of the songs. I am not talking about singing Pange Lingua to a guitar, but maybe the use of bells and *a capella *voices with the occasional harmony.

Have you ever listened to Palestrina?

I have heard that Palestrina is too complex for a congregation to sing and only suitable for a choir. I have never heard any of his compositions, though. Nor have I seen the sheet music, so I cannot say how complex the music is.

 

[pprimeau1976]

I have heard that Palestrina is too complex for a congregation to sing and only suitable for a choir. I have never heard any of his compositions, though. Nor have I seen the sheet music, so I cannot say how complex the music is.

His music is complex, but beautiful. Here is one of his compositons, Sicut Cervus, in MP3 format. I did a search on the internet, so I don’t know how legal it is.

 

[lak611]

His music is complex, but beautiful. Here is one of his compositons, Sicut Cervus, in MP3 format. I did a search on the internet, so I don’t know how legal it is.

That is beautiful. It sounds too complex for use for congregational singing, though. Even a choir would have to be well-trained to pull it off.

 

[pprimeau1976]

That is beautiful. It sounds too complex for use for congregational singing, though. Even a choir would have to be well-trained to pull it off.

Like I said time and time again, it’s not the music - it’s the director. People assume that Catholic music and choirs are horrible, but with the right director, they’re wonderful. The parish I’m at though gets way too modern though. I’m trying to introduce old pieces like this to the director. My tag line is, “We’re an ancient church, we should sing ancient music now and then.”

 

[BobP123]

Hello again, it’s been a while. (Computer crashed and died.)

As a musician and devoted Catholic, my cross is to attend Sunday Mass and experience what appears to be dead, obligatory worship. I play and sing at a Presbyterian church with a continuing history of excellent congregational, choral, and solo singing. I then go to Mass at any of several area churches and experience a near total lack of sound coming from the assembly. They seem too willing to let the cantor/song leader do all the singing and in turn the cantor is too willing to sing for them. The role of the cantor has turned into that as a soloist for the entire Mass. What can we do to change this so that the assembly can take ownership of what is rightfully theirs?

I’ve never been to a Presbyterian Church except to listen to organ recitals but I noticed that in Catholic Churches (when I attended the Novus Ordo) that people are more inclined to sing with good organ accompaniment. Guitars and pianos seem to be lacking.

 

[BobP123]

Get rid of most of simple songs about air and breezes and everyone being lovey dovey and reclaim the Gregorian Chant.

I thought chant is what Vatican II documents specifically called for.