The only singing I hear at Mass comes from cantors

[PaulaB52]

I read that book Why Catholics Don’t Sing and I took some of the suggestions to heart. I used to sing in the choir, even though, imo, I do not have a singing voice. But I do love singing, so I sing. My dh got fed up with having to take care of the kids every Sunday, so I made a deal with him. I sit with the family and he sings too.

So here we 4 are. Me, with an alto voice trying to stay low enough to not crack, my dh with a baritone who can’t carry a tune in his pocket, my 8 yr old who LOVES singing and does it with gusto, and my 7 yr old who is getting fluent with reading and now loves to read along and sing.

We sing loudish, but not so that everyone is looking at us. When songs are unfamiliar or it has a funky tune with it, we just go along. If we mess up, oh well. In fact, this past Sunday during the entrance hymn, both dh and I messed up at the same time. We looked at each other and started smiling and kept right on singing.

I agree though, older, well known hymns get the whole congregation going. On Thanksgiving day, we sang God Bless America without any cantor or accompaniment and let me say, the roof was coming down people were singing so loud! And during the summer last year around the 4th of July, we sang Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory and people knew it and belted it out. Marian hymns are always a big hit, because everyone knows them.

 

[brotherhrolf]

We have a proper 4 part hymnal in the pews…that doesn’t mean that the congregation is going to sing in anything but unison - which is OK. What we’ve done in my cathedral choir is twofold. One: our entrance and recesssional hymns are “war horses” - old well-known traditional hymns. Two: we split the choir up and we line the walls of the cathedral and face inward for the recessional. We sing “into” the congregation for the first two verses of the recessional and don’t move until the beginning of the third. It works. Having a choir member facing you and singing causes many to pick up the hymnal.

We have an alternative. Sometimes we will sing a post-Communion hymn “in the round”. Something like “Seek Ye First”. The congregation gets to experience harmony as a congregation and they love it. Taize works well in this.

We are in our restored choir loft and sing over the congregations’ heads (er, make that from behind the congregation although literally we are above their heads). I think this has a lot to do with it too. And when the choir is on vacation during the summer, we sit with our families and sing four part harmony for the congregational hymns.

 

[Potato1]

Please no - going over the music right before Mass is a real mood killer. Just as you get in the pew, and want to take a little time to collect your thoughts and prayers - here comes Sr. Kumbaya with the practice session. No Thanks. Been there, done that. …

Oh, that is the most annoying thing in the world nothing is worse than 8 teens, 7 guitars, 1 drumset and a hodgepodge of bad mainstream christian chart toppers right before mass. With the horrific and irreverent Warming up that seems to be more like a garage band session. Kind of hard to say my hail mary’s with an mxpx concert going on. If I am not mistaken it should not be alowed. (good luck getting rid of that in my parish though) “Oh the kids just love it” (which they don’t) “we need to be more hip and less square” (which you aren’t.) I love it when older people try to jive with the peeps yo. It makes it ten times worse!

 

[Hellisreal]

Fine with me. I’m a lousy singer.

I hear you…

(oh no! I dont want to hear you! Nor do you want to hear me! )

on top of that, you dont want to hear our “talent” at my parish either.

We have to be the worst sounding parish in the world.

 

[JButky]

I guess no one wants to consider my questions. Maybe if they came from a Pope there might be more attention given to them so here you go…

adoremus.org/JPIIadlim1198.html

1. Only by being radically faithful to this doctrinal foundation can we avoid one-dimensional and unilateral interpretations of the Council’s teaching. The sharing of all the baptized in the one priesthood of Jesus Christ is the key to understanding the Council’s call for full, conscious and active participation in the liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 14). Full participation certainly means that every member of the community has a part to play in the liturgy; and in this respect a great deal has been achieved in parishes and communities across your land. But full participation does not mean that everyone does everything, since this would lead to a clericalizing of the laity and a laicizing of the priesthood; and this was not what the Council had in mind. The liturgy, like the Church, is intended to be hierarchical and polyphonic, respecting the different roles assigned by Christ and allowing all the different voices to blend in one great hymn of praise.

Active participation certainly means that, in gesture, word, song and service, all the members of the community take part in an act of worship, which is anything but inert or passive. Yet active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness and listening: indeed, it demands it. Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily, or following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy. These are experiences of silence and stillness, but they are in their own way profoundly active. In a culture which neither favors nor fosters meditative quiet, the art of interior listening is learned only with difficulty. Here we see how the liturgy, though it must always be properly inculturated, must also be counter-cultural. (emphasis mine)

Conscious participation calls for the entire community to be properly instructed in the mysteries of the liturgy, lest the experience of worship degenerate into a form of ritualism. But it does not mean a constant attempt within the liturgy itself to make the implicit explicit, since this often leads to a verbosity and informality which are alien to the Roman Rite and end by trivializing the act of worship.

So again, I ask…What’s wrong with a cantor only singing and why do we attempt to MAKE congregations sing???

Joe B

 

[lak611]

I’m not sure 4 part hymnals are worth it for most churches since a) most folks can’t read music

That does not seem to be a problem for the Protestants. I do not think that there would be any difference in number of Catholics and Protestants who are able to read music. The Protestants understand the 4 part hymnals. I am sure that Catholics have the same ability to understand 4 part hymnals.

 

[Walburga]

I don’t think it is the end of the world if everyone isn’t belting out the songs. I cantor and I’m an alto. There are 4 part harmony hymnals, but like someone said, this is expensive. It isn’t fair to compare the Catholics and the Protestants on this. Many Protestant congregations are not as large and they don’t have to buy as many books. My husband would be pleased to see lower parts in the music and it is a good idea. Who knows, maybe it WILL happen one day. But it isn’t THAT important to most people, it just isn’t.

Simply being a cantor does not entitle one to pick out the music. That is always done by someone else or a committee. Also, it is not easy to get decent cantors. People that can sing don’t always volunteer for reasons mentioned already. So we take what we can get. And some of my best laughs have been when sitting next to tone deaf Catholics who sing with spirit! And since it is inappropriate to laugh out loud in church for the most part, it has to be stifled which makes it even funnier.

And if you REALLY want people to sing, don’t forget “Let There Be Peace On Earth!” THAT is REALLY popular!!

 

[Beno]

I guess no one wants to consider my questions.

Joe Butky, I hear you man. I’ve been on that side of the fence where I as the music director explained to my priest/employer the reasons for the occasional lack of singing coming from the assembly. I too believe there are times when the assembly is actively participating by actively listening, and my employer at the time would not accept this as reasonable, even though our current pope has written otherwise. But as a realist, I fully understand that some don’t have quality singing voices, some don’t like to sing publicly, some don’t like contemporary Catholic music and prefer only older hymns, that some churches have acoustics that make it seem like people are singing by themselves, that some churches have sound systems that drown out the assembly, etc.

You bring up a good and perhaps valid point that I may be complaining because they are not doing what I want them to do. Certainly as a musician, my love for the Lord and his Church will find a voice in me. But I think there is still something to the fact that most Catholic parishes do not have robust congregational singing. As an example, on Easter Sunday, I played and sang at 2 Presbyterian services - one contemporary and the other traditional. The day was beautiful, the sanctuary was festively decorated, the preaching was rightfully dynamic, the music was exuberant with pipe organ, 4-part harmonies with all verses sung, and topped with a choral Hallelujah Chorus. I then go to Mass at a large church and get to hear a minimally sung 2-verses of “Jesus Christ Is Risen Today” accompanied on an un-miked piano led by two unenthusiastic cantors with otherwise good voices. This held true for the entire Mass. My joyous excitement on Easter after 40 days of Lent was drowned in a sea of inactive indifference! Were my expectations beyond reasonable that I should hope to find others like me with a love for the Lord, for the Church, for music, and for the joy that is found in Easter?

So, perhaps more appropriate questions might be: is it important that Catholics understand how precious a gift that is given to us in the Mass, and is it reasonable to expect that our voices and participation should reflect our gratitude and joy?

 

[Beno]

Also, it is not easy to get decent cantors. People that can sing don’t always volunteer for reasons mentioned already. So we take what we can get.

Why must we put up with lousy cantors? If we take what we can get, is this what we have come to expect? Certainly musical participation is not the focus of Mass, but we are also creatures who are moved not only by our minds and hearts but also through our senses. Additionally, the church has written extensively on the value of music in our liturgies. Yet our musical output does not reflect that. Should we continue to expect bland and seemingly lifeless liturgy?

 

[Larry1700]

As a former Southern Baptist, this thread caught my eye. I’ve been a Catholic for 26 years, and the less-than-enthusiastic singing still bothers me. We should be making a joyful noise unto the Lord, not just mouthing words.

In the Baptist church, people sang loud, and you could tell they enjoyed it. Some folks in the pews (including myself) would throw in a little harmony.

The problem, as I see it, stems from unfamiliar songs and melodies that aren’t enjoyable to sing. Don’t get me wrong – one of the things I like about Mass is the solemn, majestic, and beautiful psalms, etc. sung by the cantor. And I also hope Gregorian chant will make a strong comeback someday.

However, when it’s time for the people to sing, they can’t be expected to sing loudly when the music is unfamiliar. I’ve been attending Mass for 26 years, and it seems that on most Sundays there is some song I’ve never heard before. Not only do you have to (timidly) figure out the melody, but while doing so you can’t pay attention to the words. In the Baptist church, we knew the songs by heart, and could pour all our emotion into the words.

I’m not advocating turning the Mass into a praise-and-worship or gospel hour, but I know for a fact that there are many traditional and uplifting songs available for Mass. I can’t figure out why the song directors don’t use them, and use them often.

 

[JButky]

As an example, on Easter Sunday, I played and sang at 2 Presbyterian services - one contemporary and the other traditional. The day was beautiful, the sanctuary was festively decorated, the preaching was rightfully dynamic, the music was exuberant with pipe organ, 4-part harmonies with all verses sung, and topped with a choral Hallelujah Chorus. I then go to Mass at a large church and get to hear a minimally sung 2-verses of “Jesus Christ Is Risen Today” accompanied on an un-miked piano led by two unenthusiastic cantors with otherwise good voices. This held true for the entire Mass. My joyous excitement on Easter after 40 days of Lent was drowned in a sea of inactive indifference! Were my expectations beyond reasonable that I should hope to find others like me with a love for the Lord, for the Church, for music, and for the joy that is found in Easter?

The JOY of Easter is not in the music sung at Mass but in the resurrection of our Lord and everything that means. This strikes me as a bit of what Dietrich Von Hildebrand referred to as “ecumenitis”. Talk about implicit and explicit. An explicit presbyterian style of worship is nothing without the Eucharist…Let’s not forget that. Do NOT assume that there are those who do not share in your Joy of the Lord found on Easter because they don’t sing… Do Not assume that they are inactive or indifferent either. That’s not fair to them at all if you are basing your comment on merely a singular, explicit observation like singing. There is NO comparison between the Mass and ANY other denominational service. We Catholics have the full potency of Christ’s actual physical presence. Maybe John Paul II’s words have a bit more meaning in this context…

So, perhaps more appropriate questions might be: is it important that Catholics understand how precious a gift that is given to us in the Mass, and is it reasonable to expect that our voices and participation should reflect our gratitude and joy?

To Answer the first part…most definately. But, in the second part voices and participation are separated…why? Using the voice is only one small part of participation. I think you give it too much weight. The Mass is about RECEIVING… We are given the Word and the Word made Flesh. We DO after Mass by taking that and sharing it with the world. You can sing to the High Heavens all you want at Mass and it means little if you don’t then take it out into the world. That is the Evangelical character of the Mass.

Why are we so concerned about the 4 hymn Mass? That’s not even preferred in form according to church documents. It’s the least priority. Singing the simple chants is the role proper to the people. These are the ones that “belong” to them. If the people chanted the ordinaries and there were no hymns, rather glorious music by musicians beyond the scope and ability of any congregation, do you consider the Mass to have less participation? If you go to a movie and it moves you deeply to tears, were you not an active participant in that event? Just because you were not on the screen or working on the production does NOT mean that you had no actively participating role in it.

Somehow today we lack the ability to let other people do what they do best. We are ARROGANT to think that we can and should be part of everything and anything we choose.

I say let the cantors sing. Anybody who wants to sing…please sing…but don’t make people who can’t or are unwilling or unable be forced to feel they are not participating as a result. And let’s not think that our celebrations are somehow better or worse by the level of participation in the hymn music. If you can’t, don’t, won’t sing, at least allow those that can, lift you up in your listening as you prepare to receive the Sacrament. This is what we are called to do. We can be humble enough to allow our brothers and sisters in the Lord to help us. There is no charity in forcing people to sing…It may even be detrimental in many cases.

Joe B

 

[THutch04]

This thread makes me remember the first time I went to a Catholic Mass. I honestly didn’t know if I was allowed to sing, because nobody else was doing it. I think that having unfamiliar melodies makes it difficult for an untrained congregation to sing. I can read music, and I’d say I’m fairly decent at sight-singing, but sometimes we’ll have music that is really difficult to just pick up easily. That’s not to say there aren’t hymns which are like that too…“Hail Thee, Festival Day” is certainly one which I’d much rather hear done by a trained choir than by a congregation!!!

 

[brotherhrolf]

I guess no one wants to consider my questions. Maybe if they came from a Pope there might be more attention given to them so here you go…

adoremus.org/JPIIadlim1198.html

So again, I ask…What’s wrong with a cantor only singing and why do we attempt to MAKE congregations sing???

Joe B

A very simple answer comes from St. Augustine:

He who sings, prays twice.

 

[JButky]

A very simple answer comes from St. Augustine:

He who sings, prays twice.

Not exactly in this context. In Augustine’s context that is true. In the context that we have here it should be reworded to say:

He who is coerced to sing, prays twice.

That’s not the same thing. I hope you see the difference. I’m certainly glad Augustine didn’t say or mean that.

I’m not against people singing by any means, but coercing people to sing is an entirely different matter.

Joe B

 

[brotherhrolf]

Joe B - I guess I’m fortunate in that I attend a parish in which the congregation does sing and which is graced with a good choir and organist. The problem of people not singing at Mass is twofold. First, there are still large numbers of us who grew up before Vatican II. I think most of us can count on two hands the number of hymns used consistently by the average parish back then.

“Come Holy Ghost”; “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”; “Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All”; “To Jesus Christ Our Sovreign King”, “Holy, Holy,Holy”, “Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above”; “Immaculate Mary”; and “Humbly We Adore Thee”.

Granted, there was more singing (usually in Latin) at Novenas and Benedictions (“Jesu Dulcis Memoria”; “Tantum Ergo”, O Salutaris Hostia"). But in general, this was all the congregation sang and, of course, there were no cantors and certainly no 4 part harmony.

It has been my experience at my cathedral parish when one of these old war horses is sung, it is SUNG.

Second, look at the years after VII and the transition to the NO. The congregation began to sing the Gloria, Sanctus, Eucharistic Acclamation, Lord’s Prayer, and Agnus Dei. In the years immediately after VII these were English translations of Latin chant. Fine.

What do we have now? Go to any parish and how many Mass settings are there by how many composers? Four years ago, I went to my neice’s 8th grade graduation from a Catholic school in a city 70 miles to the west of me. I had never heard any of the hymns which were sung. She graduates from high school in three weeks and I fully expect I’ll not have heard any of the hymns either.

You have an explosion in composers and music and unfortunately, the situation devolves into a “pop music” or as a former choir director said “sacro-pop” where the music is not that which will stand the test of time but what is most popular at the moment. When was the last time you heard “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word” or “They’ll Know We are Christians by Our Love”? Yet, these were cutting edge in 1970. There’s an awful lot of music being written but it’s here today and gone tommorrow. And I believe that has a lot to do with the situation.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Not exactly in this context. In Augustine’s context that is true. In the context that we have here it should be reworded to say:

He who is coerced to sing, prays twice.

That’s not the same thing. I hope you see the difference. I’m certainly glad Augustine didn’t say or mean that.

I’m not against people singing by any means, but coercing people to sing is an entirely different matter.

Joe B

Ok, in that context, I can see it. When I have to attend certain Masses with guitars and drums, etc., I won’t be coerced into singing - not that they print music in the graduation brochures - just lyrics and, if I’ve never heard it before, I’m not going to attempt to sing along.

 

[CarrieH]

I am not nearly as troubled by silence as I am by the caterwauling that passes as singing from some in the congregation. It is a wise man (or woman) who knows and respects the limits of his/her god-given talents when in communion with others.

Amen to that. Some people erroneously believe that if they sing loudly, others might be more likely to sing along. In my experience, that just annoys people and makes them more likely to sit elsewhere in the church! As a classically-trained singer, I could use what I call my “Wagner voice” (loud, heavy operatic soprano), but instead I choose to back off to about half the volume of which I am capable. I am there to pray and worship, not to show off. But what is really annoying is when I am the cantor using the microphone and some diva-wanna-be in the congregation tries to outsing me, unamplified!

 

[CarrieH]

My parish has hardcover hymnals, but still they are not 4 part hymnals. I have never seen a hardcover 4 part Catholic hymnal in any parish that uses hardcover hymnals.

The only 4-part hymnals I have seen have been the “choir editions.” They are large and the cost is prohibitive to stock the entire church with these. Considering that the majority of the people in the pews can’t even read music, I’d pass on these. But give them sing-able songs, meaning moderate range in a comfortable key for the average voice, without too much syncopation or mellisma (many notes on one syllable for you non-musicians out there), and you’ll get a better response from the congregation. A prime example is when we do newer songs for the hymns but then use the “Mass of Creation.” You hear very little singing on the hymns, but all of a sudden the volume increases tenfold when the mass parts come along.

Just please, pleeeeeeease don’t put the words up on a screen using a PowerPoint show!!!

 

[CarrieH]

Why must we put up with lousy cantors? If we take what we can get, is this what we have come to expect?

You get what you pay for. Most of us cantors don’t get one cent for our efforts except for the occasional wedding or funeral gig. The pros take the paid positions at the larger churches and cathedrals, and everyone else gets what’s left over. Pay for a real musician and you’ll get a real musician.

 

[sneakers]

I’ve noticed that the number of people singing increases 100% when they use a traditional hymn people actually know, rather than some new-agey thing.

People sing along to “Jesus Christ is risen today”, “Immaculate Mary” etc.

I noticed the same thing. Especially the Latin hymns in my church - on the rare times we sing them. People just seem to belt them out.