The only thing that scares me about becoming Catholic...

[StGerardMajella]

Is it your position that contraception is not a sin against the sixth commandment?

No, I never mentioned any “position” on contraception, nor did I make judgments against a complete stranger regarding whether they are committing a “sin against the sixth commandment”.

My only position is that you should not seek medical and spiritual advice about your unique and individual circumstances from complete strangers who have no knowledge of your situation.

The Church does not teach we must continue having children if there is a reason not to. But the Church also teaches there are moral and immoral ways of doing so. Contraception is always immoral. Always. So is sterilization.

The best advice to the original post is to seek competent spiritual and medical counsel before making any decisions that could have life-threatening consequences.

These are highly complicated questions with many variables that need to be carefully weighed and evaluated. This can only be done in the form of a personal consultation with a priest and a medical doctor.

Periodic or complete abstinence is moral. Periodic abstinence through NFP observations is certainly a better option than total abstinence, but some couples have serious reasons to avoid completely.

Complete abstinence has its own consequences, including the real possibility of separation and divorce, causing tremendous harm to both spouses and young children.

As Catholics, we are called to listen and help others, to defer to competent authority, and to show compassion, not judgment. We do enormous harm to the Church in its attempt to win converts when we say and do otherwise. It is not our place to interpret Church teaching, to pontificate on morality, nor to cast condemnation.

We welcome all potential converts with open arms. Any serious and complex questions regarding Church teaching are fully capable of being answered in-person by a competent priest.

 

[Patavium]

7 years? That is it for a $500 product?

Then another $500? That is ridiculous!

Plus…Lady Comp is a computer. It’s up to you to take your temps and record them…inconsistencies and all.

It will still record all of the errors that will occur with

drinking a glass of wine, taking an antihistamine,

waking up multiple times a night with a baby,

waking up multiple times a night with a sick child,

irregular work schedules,

childhood night terrors,

insomnia issues due to all of the above,

stress due to all of the above

and the seemingly endless list of things that will mess up your sleep schedule you rely on to keep those temps to be somewhat accurate.

If I was temping…it would be a total disaster…regardless of whether I was charting or using Lady Comp.

When I tried to chart electronically and have that interpret my findings it gave me red days for the entire month. Yes, the whole month! I had one green day and I got my period immediately after that one day.
That was like that for months and months. I didn’t need to spend half a grand to look at all of the charts to see that there wasn’t much I was doing differently.

I have mucus all month long…every month. Then it would come in patches when seasonal allergies hit and I had to start taking medication to control them. It was very, very difficult to interpret.
The electronic computer had no idea what was going and and just gave me red day after red day.

Also, I, literally, haven’t gotten more then 4-5 hours of continuous sleep in over 3 years. I wake up at different hours every single night because someone needs something at all hours. There is literally no way you can accurately temp that way…even with a computer.

It’s a terrible idea and a grossly over-charged product that wouldn’t come close to working for everyone.

NFP studies are grossly inaccurate because there is no way to test a real control. There just isn’t one. There are way too many variables. Everyone and everything interprets raw data differently. Individuals can, and do, collect data differently from person to person and from day to day in just one individual.

If you actually look at the data…it’s all over the place. From 2% error to 20%-30% error.

All NFP studies are just companies desperately trying to convince people that their system works.

It’s no different then contraception and those companies trying to convince people to use their products…except contraceptive products can actually test a true control and the user error rate is just so much lower. NFP is much harder to test and the user error rate is astronomical!

Throwing NFP data around is grossly irresponsible and inappropriate. It gives people a false sense of security and sets them up for failure.

All you can do is tell new Catholics what the Church teaches and tell them “good luck with it”.

Some people can make it work extraordinarily well.

Others, regardless of what technique they use, will not be able to make it work. And it only takes one unplanned pregnancy, when you’re desperately trying to avoid, to be able to put that in perspective and come to the realization of “what in the world are we going to do?”

What bugs me the most about this whole thing is when you have an unplanned pregnancy in the non-Catholic world…there are actual options. Real ones. You can try something different and take a different approach. You can listen to your doctor and do something different.

In the Catholic world…there are no options. It’s NFP or nothing. There may be different forms of NFP…but the interpretation is still there in every form and the fear of high user error with always be there. Regardless if it’s you, an instructor or an expensive computer doing the interpretation.

To me, that is seriously frightening.

What is even more frightening is the lives of many women…and their unborn children…are in the hands of a bunch of volunteer amateurs who have zero experience with the human body except their own personal experiences with NFP.

All you need to do is take a couple of months to take online classes and pass a test and you are suddenly certified to interpret charts.

It’s either that or you spend a fortune to make a computer do it…and you are literally rolling the dice to see if that investment actually pays off.

There is more to the computer than what your opinion states. The computer has predictive models calibrated with more than just a few data points, plus every new temperature provides new data points about the specific user. Furthermore, the computer has algorithms and methods to identify valid and invalid data points. Invalid data points are discarded and the model is not updated with these values. This predictive modeling tech (i.e. smartphones, amazon, autonomous vehicles, etc…) is used in many other fields besides fertility with significant success.

Now, this tech is not for everyone. It does require valid data points, and such requires the user to follow certain guidelines. Lastly, I don’t think your experience is applicable to everyone. It is good for you to share it, but perhaps in a more compose manner would have been better. Regardless, the OP should be aware of this option, which has been successful for us, and others here at CAF and elsewhere.

 

[bitterhope]

There is more to the computer than what your opinion states. The computer has predictive models calibrated with more than just a few data points, plus every new temperature provides new data points about the specific user. Furthermore, the computer has algorithms and methods to identify valid and invalid data points. Invalid data points are discarded and the model is not updated with these values. This predictive modeling tech (i.e. smartphones, amazon, autonomous vehicles, etc…) is used in many other fields besides fertility with significant success.

Now, this tech is not for everyone. It does require valid data points, and such requires the user to follow certain guidelines. Lastly, I don’t think your experience is applicable to everyone. It is good for you to share it, but perhaps in a more compose manner would have been better. Regardless, the OP should be aware of this option, which has been successful for us, and others here at CAF and elsewhere.

This is a good post. Lady comp is quite popular in Europe. I am someone that NFP does not work for and still I think it’s important to note I’m the exception and not the rule. Lady comp and other monitors are expensive yet compared to the cost of another child with medical issues or even just for peace of mind, for many couples it is worth it.

 

[Kelfa28]

There is more to the computer than what your opinion states. The computer has predictive models calibrated with more than just a few data points, plus every new temperature provides new data points about the specific user. Furthermore, the computer has algorithms and methods to identify valid and invalid data points. Invalid data points are discarded and the model is not updated with these values. This predictive modeling tech (i.e. smartphones, amazon, autonomous vehicles, etc…) is used in many other fields besides fertility with significant success.

Now, this tech is not for everyone. It does require valid data points, and such requires the user to follow certain guidelines. Lastly, I don’t think your experience is applicable to everyone. It is good for you to share it, but perhaps in a more compose manner would have been better. Regardless, the OP should be aware of this option, which has been successful for us, and others here at CAF and elsewhere.

You cannot have valid data if all of it is skewed for some reason or another.

It doesn’t matter how the computer works or what the calibration is…it only works based on the (name removed by moderator)ut data you have.

If all of your temps aren’t accurate and you have continuous mucus for the whole month I fail to see how the system would work at all.

Are their predictive data sets for daily unreliability on temps?
Literally, waking up at all hours of the night, at different hours of the night, every single day for years?

Those predictive models aren’t based on everyone’s reality.

It’s based on what you put it in. The computer will do nothing but give me back flawed results if the data is untrustworthy from day one of usage.

Besides…smartphones, amazon and autonomous vehicles are based on control models that are designed to be the exact same with very few variations.

There is no “control model” when it comes to the human body. Not only is everyone vastly different but our experiences further exacerbate the massive issues we’d encounter with these products.

I wouldn’t feel comfortable getting behind the wheel of a car that would drive itself based on a computer. Something that I have virtually no control over. Nor would I be comfortable entrusting my fertility to a computer designed by someone else’s idea on how my body should work.

I think it’s crazy that anyone would drop that kind of money on a product that “might” work for them. Especially if it’s advertised as being wildly successful.

I, personally, know women who have spent a huge amount of money they didn’t have for Clearblue Easy monitors that never picked up “peak” readings for them or gave consistently high readings for the entire month.
I know at least one woman who bought the Lady Comp…it failed miserably for her and she had to sell it back at a loss and went on the pill instead.

Very few people have that kind of money to shell out for a product they cannot guarantee will actually work. I think it’s really dishonest and alarming to push people to buy a product that the vast majority of us cannot afford.

I think my experience should be a wake-up-call for every new Catholic and every other Catholic who comes on here and flaunts their products.

Especially for women who can’t get pregnant because their very life depends on it.

From what I’ve read and have heard in my life. I’m most definitely not the minority. Not even by a long shot.

People struggle with NFP in a huge way. It’s advertised to be this wonderful thing that works for virtually everyone.

That is NOT true. It’s not even close to being true.

My experience is valid because it actually highlights the fact that NFP doesn’t work for everyone…despite everyone’s insistence that it does…and I’m just not doing it correctly.

 

[Patavium]

**You cannot have valid data if all of it is skewed for some reason or another.

It doesn’t matter how the computer works or what the calibration is…it only works based on the (name removed by moderator)ut data you have.

If all of your temps aren’t accurate and you have continuous mucus for the whole month I fail to see how the system would work at all.

Are their predictive data sets for daily unreliability on temps?
Literally, waking up at all hours of the night, at different hours of the night, every single day for years?

Those predictive models aren’t based on everyone’s reality. **

It’s based on what you put it in. The computer will do nothing but give me back flawed results if the data is untrustworthy from day one of usage.

Besides…smartphones, amazon and autonomous vehicles are based on control models that are designed to be the exact same with very few variations.

There is no “control model” when it comes to the human body. Not only is everyone vastly different but our experiences further exacerbate the massive issues we’d encounter with these products.

I wouldn’t feel comfortable getting behind the wheel of a car that would drive itself based on a computer. Something that I have virtually no control over. Nor would I be comfortable entrusting my fertility to a computer designed by someone else’s idea on how my body should work.

**I think it’s crazy that anyone would drop that kind of money on a product that “might” work for them. Especially if it’s advertised as being wildly successful.
**
I, personally, know women who have spent a huge amount of money they didn’t have for Clearblue Easy monitors that never picked up “peak” readings for them or gave consistently high readings for the entire month.
I know at least one woman who bought the Lady Comp…it failed miserably for her and she had to sell it back at a loss and went on the pill instead.

**Very few people have that kind of money to shell out for a product they cannot guarantee will actually work. I think it’s really dishonest and alarming to push people to buy a product that the vast majority of us cannot afford.
**
I think my experience should be a wake-up-call for every new Catholic and every other Catholic who comes on here and flaunts their products.

Especially for women who can’t get pregnant because their very life depends on it.

From what I’ve read and have heard in my life. I’m most definitely not the minority. Not even by a long shot.

People struggle with NFP in a huge way. It’s advertised to be this wonderful thing that works for virtually everyone.

That is NOT true. It’s not even close to being true.

My experience is valid because it actually highlights the fact that NFP doesn’t work for everyone…despite everyone’s insistence that it does…and I’m just not doing it correctly.

Your opinion is incorrect about these predictive models. The predictive models are calibrated with data from a sample of users BEFORE you (name removed by moderator)ut any data. Through the use of advanced statistical methods, you can “zoom” the model so it reflects your specific distribution through the use of your (name removed by moderator)ut data. I speak as someone that works in the field, but for different applications.

The applications I mentioned are just a few. Those models are even used for robot assisted surgery, they are used for traffic control signals, ramp metering, they are used for credit card fraud detection, they are used to predict whether someone will miss a payment on a loan, they are used to calculate your premium on your insurance, etc… All applications being successful within the scope of the models.

Your experience is the experience of ONE individual and with some secondhand opinions of people you heard from. It doesn’t apply to everyone. Others have found the use of such computers very useful. Trying to extrapolate your unique experience to discredit this device or similar devices and in some cases the experience of others is not very charitable at all.

I will not address the statement about the pill as this is a Catholic forum, and as faithful Christians we all should know better.

 

[Kelfa28]

Your opinion is incorrect about these predictive models. The predictive models are calibrated with data from a sample of users BEFORE you (name removed by moderator)ut any data. Through the use of advanced statistical methods, you can “zoom” the model so it reflects your specific distribution through the use of your (name removed by moderator)ut data. I speak as someone that works in the field, but for different applications.

The applications I mentioned are just a few. Those models are even used for robot assisted surgery, they are used for traffic control signals, ramp metering, they are used for credit card fraud detection, they are used to predict whether someone will miss a payment on a loan, they are used to calculate your premium on your insurance, etc… All applications being successful within the scope of the models.

Your experience is the experience of ONE individual and with some secondhand opinions of people you heard from. It doesn’t apply to everyone. Others have found the use of such computers very useful. Trying to extrapolate your unique experience to discredit this device or similar devices and in some cases the experience of others is not very charitable at all.

It’s not charitable to suggest someone spend that kind of money on a product that may not work for them.

It’s exorbitant.

 

[Patavium]

It’s not charitable to suggest someone spend that kind of money on a product that may not work for them.

Kelfa, clearly you have a problem with this teaching of the Catholic Church. At this point, I advise you to consult with a Priest.

I did NOT force anyone to purchase such device. I recommended it. There is a VAST difference between the two. The OP is free to consult and make his/her own decision. Furthermore, you have no idea what is the financial situation of the OP. You are trying to imagine yourself in the shoes of the OP. Her situation is not your situation.

 

[Kelfa28]

Kelfa, clearly you have a problem with this teaching of the Catholic Church. At this point, I advise you to consult with a Priest.

I did NOT force anyone to purchase such device. I recommended it. There is a VAST difference between the two. The OP is free to consult and make his/her own decision. Furthermore, you have no idea what is the financial situation of the OP. You are trying to imagine yourself in the shoes of the OP. Her situation is not your situation.

I don’t need to consult with anyone about anything thank-you.

I’m perfectly comfortable with Church teaching.

We aren’t required to use NFP anyway.

I have a huge problem with the way NFP is advertised and pressed upon people.

I tried it and had an unintended pregnancy at absolute worst time in my life. It was devastating. It still is devastating.

That is the truth and people need to hear this from me because the only answer that is given is:

“You have to use NFP again…despite it failing…or total abstinence…your choice.”

That is devastating…which is why I will cast doubt on these methods.

You haven’t been in my situation. My husband and I absolutely do not trust NFP because we weren’t supposed to get pregnant while using it…but we did and it nearly destroyed our marriage.

I’m not letting that happen again.

It scares me when I read about women who cannot get pregnant because it might seriously hurt them of create serious risks for their unborn children and everyone just cheerfully makes suggestions and tries to advertise their worth.

Especially when no one who is promoting their products ever thinks to suggest she consult a physician about it.

No…it’s just “buy this product! It’ll work!”

I see this on these forums often enough to really concern me.

 

[Kelfa28]

I don’t know much about computers.

But I’ve spent nearly 15 years working and studying in and about the medical field.

NFP, for me, is highly suspect at best.

At worst…it could kill someone.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

For the OP.

My last child was also a preemie. He was born at a little over 28 weeks. He had a very hard time, but he’s a lovely adorable seven year old now.

I learned the Creighton method after he was born.

In 7 years I haven’t conceived. I had a “what if” I were pregnant moment I think 3 or 4 years ago. I wasn’t pregnant, but we took a chance when I knew I was fertile.

I’d definitely recommend Creighton. You must learn it with an instructor. The course are one on one. You advance as your teacher feels you are competent in the method.

Creighton instructors usually are medically trained. Mine was a nurse.

I also was blessed to have an NFP only Ob/GYN. Some times medical issues make it complicated. I had some health issues (I have multiple cysts on my ovaries, and some but not all the symptoms of PCOS) I took prometrium for 10 days a cycle, and it made NFP much easier.

Hope that helps. I do empathize about being worried for giving up contraception. I’ve used it when I wasn’t a practicing Catholic. It took a great deal of prayer on my part and trust. I am happy I did give it up.

 

[bitterhope]

Kelfa,

I know what it’s like to not be able to use NFP. It will never work for me either. You are correct that NFP is optional. No one is required to use NFP in their marriage.

NFP does work for most people. It is taught by many doctors, midwives, nurses, etc. and all methods were developed by medical professionals. Many of the instructors go WAY too far, but that isn’t the method’s fault. I’ve said many times the harm the instructors are doing is wrong. It chases people away. There are many good instructors I’m sure, and there are many different methods to choose from.

Regardless of whether or not a couple chooses to use NFP, no couple can ever use artificial birth control. That is not optional. It is against church teaching to use anything besides NFP or total abstinence for the purpose of spacing babies or avoiding them completely. Is it hard? Yes, of course it is. That is why many people choose not to follow the church’s teaching. But it is what it is and that’s not going to change.

 

[1ke]

It’s not charitable to suggest someone spend that kind of money on a product that may not work for them.

It’s exorbitant.

But it is charitable to hijack a thread, launch into a multi-post tirade against NFP, suggest that people disregard church teaching, and accuse people who use or promote NFP off all sorts of nefarious motives?

 

[1ke]

Regardless of whether or not a couple chooses to use NFP, no couple can ever use artificial birth control. That is not optional. It is against church teaching to use anything besides NFP or total abstinence for the purpose of spacing babies or avoiding them completely. Is it hard? Yes, of course it is. That is why many people choose not to follow the church’s teaching. But it is what it is and that’s not going to change.

Thank you for your witness, I’m sure it’s a difficult path to walk.

 

[bitterhope]

Thank you for your witness, I’m sure it’s a difficult path to walk.

Sometimes it is but it is worth it. It isn’t always hard though. Focusing on the blessings you are given as a family and remembering to pray prayers of thanksgiving for those things helps. Despite what the world tells us, children are blessings from God and there isn’t a set amount that a couple needs to stop at or strive to reach. If life dictates no/no more children for the time being, despite what the world dictates, abstaining never killed anyone. If God has truly placed something in your life or in your heart, He will help you to live up to the challenges. Hard doesn’t make something impossible and it doesn’t have to make us miserable either. Many difficult things in life lead to joy and fulfillment.

 

[PhiloMed]

But it is charitable to hijack a thread, launch into a multi-post tirade against NFP, suggest that people disregard church teaching, and accuse people who use or promote NFP off all sorts of nefarious motives?

It’s funny how when someone gives the realities of using NFP and the consequences of unintended pregnancy they are suddenly anti-church teaching, anti-NFP and all sort of other things. When someone says that they took ABC and they experienced side effects they get cheered on as the poster child for why it is so evil.

 

[spunjalebi]

It’s funny how when someone gives the realities of using NFP and the consequences of unintended pregnancy they are suddenly anti-church teaching, anti-NFP and all sort of other things. When someone says that they took ABC and they experienced side effects they get cheered on as the poster child for why it is so evil.

I was just about to say something similar myself.

People need to be more charitable toward others who have real concerns about having a large family size. Not everyone relishes the idea of having 10 children and struggling to get grocery shopping done. It’s not exactly what people have in mind with “sacrificing.”

 

[spunjalebi]

To be honest, I just wish there was a way that would make all sides of this issue happy. There would be no abortion if even artificial birth control never failed and was always 100% accurate without a doubt.

I don’t think that’s an accurate statement to make, as there would be abortion anyway. There are a lot of men who don’t care to know they got a woman pregnant, and women out there who simply don’t want to be pregnant.

 

[ela2]

7 years? That is it for a $500 product?

Then another $500? That is ridiculous!

Plus…Lady Comp is a computer. It’s up to you to take your temps and record them…inconsistencies and all.

It will still record all of the errors that will occur with

drinking a glass of wine, taking an antihistamine,

waking up multiple times a night with a baby,

waking up multiple times a night with a sick child,

irregular work schedules,

childhood night terrors,

insomnia issues due to all of the above,

stress due to all of the above

and the seemingly endless list of things that will mess up your sleep schedule you rely on to keep those temps to be somewhat accurate.

If I was temping…it would be a total disaster…regardless of whether I was charting or using Lady Comp.

When I tried to chart electronically and have that interpret my findings it gave me red days for the entire month. Yes, the whole month! I had one green day and I got my period immediately after that one day.
That was like that for months and months. I didn’t need to spend half a grand to look at all of the charts to see that there wasn’t much I was doing differently.

I have mucus all month long…every month. Then it would come in patches when seasonal allergies hit and I had to start taking medication to control them. It was very, very difficult to interpret.
The electronic computer had no idea what was going and and just gave me red day after red day.

Also, I, literally, haven’t gotten more then 4-5 hours of continuous sleep in over 3 years. I wake up at different hours every single night because someone needs something at all hours. There is literally no way you can accurately temp that way…even with a computer.

It’s a terrible idea and a grossly over-charged product that wouldn’t come close to working for everyone.

NFP studies are grossly inaccurate because there is no way to test a real control. There just isn’t one. There are way too many variables. Everyone and everything interprets raw data differently. Individuals can, and do, collect data differently from person to person and from day to day in just one individual.

If you actually look at the data…it’s all over the place. From 2% error to 20%-30% error.

All NFP studies are just companies desperately trying to convince people that their system works.

It’s no different then contraception and those companies trying to convince people to use their products…except contraceptive products can actually test a true control and the user error rate is just so much lower. NFP is much harder to test and the user error rate is astronomical!

Throwing NFP data around is grossly irresponsible and inappropriate. It gives people a false sense of security and sets them up for failure.

All you can do is tell new Catholics what the Church teaches and tell them “good luck with it”.

Some people can make it work extraordinarily well.

Others, regardless of what technique they use, will not be able to make it work. And it only takes one unplanned pregnancy, when you’re desperately trying to avoid, to be able to put that in perspective and come to the realization of “what in the world are we going to do?”

What bugs me the most about this whole thing is when you have an unplanned pregnancy in the non-Catholic world…there are actual options. Real ones. You can try something different and take a different approach. You can listen to your doctor and do something different.

In the Catholic world…there are no options. It’s NFP or nothing. There may be different forms of NFP…but the interpretation is still there in every form and the fear of high user error with always be there. Regardless if it’s you, an instructor or an expensive computer doing the interpretation.

To me, that is seriously frightening.

What is even more frightening is the lives of many women…and their unborn children…are in the hands of a bunch of volunteer amateurs who have zero experience with the human body except their own personal experiences with NFP.

All you need to do is take a couple of months to take online classes and pass a test and you are suddenly certified to interpret charts.

It’s either that or you spend a fortune to make a computer do it…and you are literally rolling the dice to see if that investment actually pays off.

He’s recommending it to the op not to you. Since she’s mostly likely not in your exact situation, maybe it works for her. If one can afford it, why not, instead of going into total abstinance or worse getting frustrated and using birth control.

 

[TabbyLilac]

I am sorry for starting a thread that has gotten so many people upset.

For the record, I am not against a large family or children, in fact most of my life I wanted nothing more than to be a mother. And my children are the absolute most wonderful blessings, their very existence is what opened my heart and eyes to God in the biggest way and what has continued to reveal his glory to me.

If I didn’t have a complicated medical situation myself, a history of preterm births, combined with what is now considered “advanced maternal age”, combined with a fiance who, we are just learning, has a fairly serious and potentially terminal medical condition himself, I would be thrilled to have many more children. Unfortunately we DO have all those factors to consider, yet I also believe strongly in the Catholic teachings. This is obviously something I will have to take some time to consider with my fiance as we decide how best to minimize our risk while trusting in God, who holds us in his loving hands.

There were several years (many years ago now) when I did not use any contraceptive because I wanted children, but I was also in a marriage with someone who treated me cruelly and abusively. God never allowed a child to be conceived then because obviously He knew better than I did. And I have no doubt that he is watching over me now as then and that I can trust Him to guide me to the right decision in faith.

I thank you all for taking the time to respond and for providing your perspectives and advice.

 

[1ke]

I am sorry for starting a thread that has gotten so many people upset.

Truly, don’t let it bother you. First, people are probably not “upset” but just making points emphatically. Also, written words can come across differently than spoken. It can be an emotional topic for some.

Also, most threads go off on tangents, this is no different.

For the record, I am not against a large family or children, in fact most of my life I wanted nothing more than to be a mother. And my children are the absolute most wonderful blessings, their very existence is what opened my heart and eyes to God in the biggest way and what has continued to reveal his glory to me.

I hope you did not get the impression anyone was judging you for your family size decisions. Because they aren’t anyone’s business but yours and your future husband’s.

If I didn’t have a complicated medical situation myself, a history of preterm births,