The only thing that scares me about becoming Catholic...

  • Thread starter Thread starter TabbyLilac
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Rather than lead people astray, a priest is more likely to ask the individual to pray for God’s strength and guidance, and to commit themselves to try to live by Church teaching.
I don’t mean to suggest that I have any idea what is the most likely response from a priest. I only had my own experience talking to a number of them and what I’ve read. And even in that sample, I think most would not explicitly say it is ok to ignore the teaching. But it was all over the subtext.

I’m reminded of this post by Fr. Daley. Reading this, I don’t think he would ever explicitly say you can ignore a teaching of the magisterium. But at least I see a longing to be able to say it is ok and if you spoke with him you would likely come away with an idea that’s more of “I can strive to be saint and not contracept, but I can contracept and still be a good Catholic. I don’t even really need to confess this” than “So long as I am actively contracepting I can never be in communion with the Church”.

Of course, it’s the latter lesson that is the true teaching of the Church. There’s no getting around that, which as I mentioned is one of the reasons I didn’t come back as much as many of the priests I spoke to suggested it wasn’t an obstacle.
 
If you can’t trust a priest, then why speak to a priest about anything?
The lesson is similar to speaking to a lawyer.

I’ve had more experience dealing with lawyers than I’d like and one thing I’ve learned that while they know a lot more law than I do, they can and do make mistakes often and it’s my responsibility to be well educated about a topic when talking with them. You can’t offload the responsibility onto a lawyer. It’s your case so it’s important you get it right, not just take their advice even if you can’t do it without professional help.

And getting your spiritual situation straight is a lot more important than making sure your contracts are in order. But that’s also why internet forums can be helpful, but certainly shouldn’t be your only source of information!
 
There’s nothing like scaring someone away from the Church before she even joins!
There are lots of scary truths in the world. The question has been asked about the applicability of the teaching on contraception and some of the answers given are contrary to that teaching. Do you recommend further misleading, or silence (arguably somewhat similar)?
“Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven. Whose sins you shall retain they are retained.”
That’s about forgiveness of those acknowledging their sins, not the power to sanction sin in the first place. Noone - including the Pope - has that power.
Apparently, priests have no idea what they’re doing, and people on these forums are the infallible experts! If you can’t trust a priest, then why speak to a priest about anything?
Seriously? No such assertion has been made. Instead, the teachings of the Church have been identified and referenced. And if some hypothetical priest teaches contrary to the Church, that priest is wrong. If you see error in that, please identify it.

I fully endorse encouraging a person with doubts and struggles to talk with their priest in preference to seeking guidance here. But at least they may find connections here to doctrine that they can reference and read for themselves.

But to suggest that a priest may sanction what cannot be sanctioned is wrong. To suggest that any Church teaching permits contraception of conjugal acts because a pregnancy could be dangerous is also wrong.
 
by Fr. Daley. Reading this, I don’t think he would ever explicitly say you can ignore a teaching of the magisterium. Yes.
But at least I see a longing to be able to say it is ok and if you spoke with him you would likely come away with an idea that’s more of “I can strive to be saint and not contracept, but I can contracept and still be a good Catholic. I don’t even really need to confess this” than “So long as I am actively contracepting I can never be in communion with the Church”.
He clearly reflects the burden he feels in having no palatable “solution” for those who face difficult circumstances. But I don’t believe he would leave a parishioner with the view you suggest. He repeatedly states he teaches as the Church teaches.

It’s not difficult to believe that life could be easier “if only…”. If only my wife were not incapacitated… If only my husband had not had cancer… If only my child were not gay…
 
Using condoms or the pill or similar to prevent a pregnancy, motivated by the good intention of avoiding the medical consequences of pregnancy, is using contraception “as a means”. It is explicitly rejected.
This is your personal interpretation of canon law. Again, canon law and Church teaching do not operate in a vacuum. You cannot take a generalized teaching of the Church and use it as an umbrella for your own purposes to suit your personal agenda. This is exactly why we have attorneys (secular and religious), courts (secular and ecclesiastical), priests, and medical doctors - to debate issues and come to conclusions based on specific life circumstances.

And I have referenced a very specific, unique situation: A mother could very much want more children. She could want a growing family. But, due to medical issues, a pregnancy would result in her certain death. NFP is not the answer, and neither is permanent abstinence for the next 50 years of her life. The mother has an obligation to protect herself from certain death, as well as to keep the marriage and family intact.

These are, quite clearly, not black-and-white issues. They require debate and discussion among competent authorities. Your citation of general Church teaching does not address specific life circumstances. They are a guide, a doctrine, a teaching, even a religious and philosophical viewpoint. They are quite helpful, but do not address specific, unique life circumstances that have to be carefully evaluated utilizing reason, logic, medical science, and considerable prayer.

We are called by Christ to compassion, not judgment and condemnation of others. Condemning others in this high-handed manner - especially mothers who would surely die in the event of pregnancy - by calling their actions “intrinsically evil” is neither helpful, nor compassionate. It is, instead, a gross misinterpretation of Church teaching based on one’s own personal prejudices and interpretations.

High-handed condemnation of others - especially converts no less - violates the higher commandments to love our neighbors as ourselves, and to welcome strangers into the Church with open arms. “He who is without sin, cast the first stone” - and others.

No one is advocating for contraception for whimsical, personal pleasure. Let’s get our facts straight. I am referring to a common scenario where a mother faces certain death in the event of pregnancy.
Apparently, priests have no idea what they’re doing, and people on these forums are the infallible experts!
Exactly. If you put yourself in the shoes of the potential convert, these abrasive condemnations of others are hardly welcoming, let alone rationale. They do enormous harm to the Church’s efforts to win potential converts.
 
Exactly. If you put yourself in the shoes of the potential convert, these abrasive condemnations of others are hardly welcoming, let alone rationale. They do enormous harm to the Church’s efforts to win potential converts.
It may harm the effort to with converts, but maybe that’s a good thing if it stops some converts from getting into something they didn’t understand. When I was considering come back to the Church, I really wanted in, but to be honest, I didn’t want into the Catholic Church as it is, I wanted into what I imagined it to be.

It was honest discussion in places like this forum, finding out the hard truths of what Catholicism is that helped me to see it wasn’t what I was looking for. In some ways that sad, but in others I’m very thankful for people who didn’t try to hide the aspects of the Church with which I would have problems. I have a lot of respect for them for having the respect to tell me the truth rather than what I wanted to hear.

The Church offers you a cross to bear if you chose and with that cross comes great things, but it’s only just to let someone know what that cross is before they take it up.
 
This is your personal interpretation of canon law.
The Church’s teaching on contraception is a matter of moral theology (expressed in the catechism, encyclicals, etc) not a matter of canon law (I believe it is barely referenced if at all in canon law).

The term “intrinsically evil” is specifically used to obviate the need for “personal interpretation”. It is a specific term used by the Church in discussions of moral theology, as Rau has addressed, but it is wrong to accuse Rau of meaning anything along the lines of personal judgment of others in addressing this point. We can absolutely discuss any given act as being objectively moral, immoral, or neutral without making any judgments about particular people committing such acts.

It is not wrong to tell anyone considering joining the Church that we consider certain acts to always be wrong - eg murder, theft, adultery. It is not wrong to point out that (according to Church teaching) contraception and abortion belong to that group of acts that are considered “intrinsically evil”.

Is this a hard teaching? Yes.
Do many Catholics wish it were otherwise? Yes (I’d be tempted to put my hand up if asked).
Do many Catholics ignore the teaching? Yes (based on statistics).
Do some priests offer advice against this teaching? It seems anecdotally that some do.
Is the Church’s teaching nonetheless clear? Yes.
Do we assume or judge that any Catholics who practise contraception are committing mortal sin? No. They committ grave matter (AKA “objective mortal sin”), but we do not judge that their actions meet the criteria for personal mortal sin.
 
The Church’s teaching on contraception is a matter of moral theology (expressed in the catechism, encyclicals, etc) not a matter of canon law (I believe it is barely referenced if at all in canon law).
Canon law.
It is not wrong to tell anyone considering joining the Church that we consider certain acts to always be wrong - eg murder, theft, adultery.
Moses created tribunals to adjudicate on the commandments. Because even the commandments required context, interpretation, and application to unique situations.

The commandments remained the same, but their application would be based on context.
We can absolutely discuss any given act as being objectively moral, immoral, or neutral without making any judgments about particular people committing such acts.
Not recommended with potential converts.
 
Canon law.
?

Sorry, but I think you are very confused. Perhaps you can quote the section of Canon Law that you think is relevant?

Others have already quoted sections of the Catechism and Humanae Vitae that actually address the Church’s teaching on contraception.
Not recommended with potential converts.
You recommend that potential converts are not informed of what the Church teaches. I could not disagree more.

(Besides which, you’d have to be living under a rock to not know that the Catholic Church teaches against contrception.)
 
It may harm the effort to with converts, but maybe that’s a good thing if it stops some converts from getting into something they didn’t understand. When I was considering come back to the Church, I really wanted in, but to be honest, I didn’t want into the Catholic Church as it is, I wanted into what I imagined it to be.

It was honest discussion in places like this forum, finding out the hard truths of what Catholicism is that helped me to see it wasn’t what I was looking for. In some ways that sad, but in others I’m very thankful for people who didn’t try to hide the aspects of the Church with which I would have problems. I have a lot of respect for them for having the respect to tell me the truth rather than what I wanted to hear.

The Church offers you a cross to bear if you chose and with that cross comes great things, but it’s only just to let someone know what that cross is before they take it up.
If you believe your own words, how could you walk away from the Church, carefullytread?

Your post breaks my heart. Why would you choose the truth you prefer over the Truth you recognize in the hard teachings of the Catholic Church.

St. Peter was once asked by Jesus, “will you also leave?”

He answered Jesus “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

ALL Catholics face hard teachings. We ALL struggle with certain teachings and say they are too hard. But nowhere else can we find the fullness of the faith. Nowhere else can we receive the Eucharist, and the medicine of the Precious Blood of Jesus in confession. There is healing and nourishment in the Catholic Faith. These things are your birthright as a baptized Christian, but no other Christian group can offer them to their faithful.

St. Thomas once said “Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief!”

These spoken testimonies to the saving power of Christ, Who is present in the sacraments, were given to us by the apostles. Their successors today can still offer is the means of salvation: the sacraments.

St. Paul said to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling”. It doesn’t sound like we are expected or able to be perfectly holy at the beginning of our conversion (or reversion, or whatever). It sounds like we know we will stumble and fall and be frail and weak and yet we will continue to repent and amend our lives so that we will be ever more closely conformed to Christ.

Okay, I have said my peace. I will add both you and TabbyLilac, and all persons who would seek to enter the Catholic Church but who dare not because of the “hard sayings”(to once again quote the apostles). God bless you all and I pray the Holy Spirit to draw you in and give you courage and peace. :signofcross:
 
To CAF and readers in general:

I think it is important to keep in mind that new converts will need our patience and compassion and understanding with respect to sensitive topics like contraception.

Imagine for a moment that for all your life you were educated to believe that contraception was a positive good and that smart people use it.

Now imagine that in the process of discerning conversion to the Catholic Church, you discover that contraception is forbidden and sinful.

A potential convert is going to need TIME to process this information, and they are going to need gentle direction.

Prior to modern obstetrics and widespread use of contraception, the reality for women was that pregnancy and childbirth very often led to death of mothers, and to their babies. So it is understandable that the idea of not using contraception can induce panic.

NFP is a merciful allowance by the Church. But not many people know anything about it. I can say as a convert myself, who had to confront all these hard teachings, that learning about the Church’s teachings in a gentle format (Catholic Education Resource Center online, etc) and learning about NFP methods, were far more helpful to me than people telling me over and over that contraception was a sin. The Holy Spirit moved me quickly to the answer that worked for me, without the interference of other people’s opinions making me panic.

I fear we have alienated TabbyLilac. We need to be gentle and patient and understanding of where a person is. Praying with them. Matching them up with resources. Not just repeating phrases like intrinsically evil over and over again. 😦
 
I fear we have alienated TabbyLilac. We need to be gentle and patient and understanding of where a person is. Praying with them. Matching them up with resources. Not just repeating phrases like intrinsically evil over and over again. 😦
The reason people are clarifying the Church’s teaching is that others are trying to muddy it. TabbyLilac herself had a proper understanding at the start of this thread (as shown below) but became potentially confused by certain misinformation.

Hopefully we have offered the truth with charity. But we do no favours by pretending things are other than they are.
I guess I was under the impression that there are no exceptions allowed but perhaps I need to discuss this, like you’ve said, with our priest before making any major changes and decisions.
 
This is your personal interpretation of canon law.
Your repeated references to Canon Law, and the complete absence of references to Church teachings, suggests very strongly you are making this up as you go. Canon Law is neither the source nor the vessel of Church Teachings.
You cannot take a generalized teaching of the Church and use it as an umbrella for your own purposes to suit your personal agenda.
The teaching that Contraception is intrinsically evil is not generalised, but in fact highly specific and definitive. My only agenda is to express what the Church teaches. You clearly have another, given you don’t reference Church Teaching at all.
And I have referenced a very specific, unique situation: A mother could very much want more children. She could want a growing family. But, due to medical issues, a pregnancy would result in her certain death. NFP is not the answer, and neither is permanent abstinence for the next 50 years of her life. The mother has an obligation to protect herself from certain death, as well as to keep the marriage and family intact.
The Church goes to great lengths in teaching a key principal of its moral theology - that specific Intentions and specific Circumstances don’t alter the evil inherent in an intrinsically wrong act. Such acts are “always wrong to choose”. You may wish to declare that, with this understanding, contraception ought not to be “intrinsically evil”. Unfortunately, the Church teaches that it is.

It is correct that a mother has a duty to self and to family - but she is not free to pursue that duty by any means! Contraception may be a palatable means to do that, but the Church teaches that it is an immoral means, and the Church teaching states specifically that the reasons one may feel inclined to choose contraception cannot change the immorality of it.
These are, quite clearly, not black-and-white issues. They require debate and discussion among competent authorities. Your citation of general Church teaching does not address specific life circumstances. They are a guide, a doctrine, a teaching, even a religious and philosophical viewpoint. They are quite helpful, but do not address specific, unique life circumstances that have to be carefully evaluated utilizing reason, logic, medical science, and considerable prayer.
The issues are hard, but entirely black and white. The need for debate to answer the morality question arises when one rejects the idea of “intrinsically evil” acts and embraces the idea of “consequentialism” - weighing up the consequences of acts to determine what is moral. That approach is utterly rejected by Catholic Moral Theology (spelled out by Pope St JP II in VS75).

When the Church says “no intentions or circumstances can render an intrinsically evil act good”, your response, apparently, is to say…“that’s merely a general guide”? Seriously?
…It is, instead, a gross misinterpretation of Church teaching…
Please provide a true representation of the Church teachings on contraception, and intrinsically evil acts, quoting Church documents to support you view.
“He who is without sin, cast the first stone”
Noone has cast a stone - other than yourself in suggesting I misrepresent Church Teaching and have “an agenda”. Is it casting a stone to observe and state accurately, on a discussion thread about Contraception, what the Church teaches, viz:
“Abortion is intrinsically evil - it may never be chosen”
“Contraception is intrinsically evil - it may never be chosen”
I am referring to a common scenario where a mother faces certain death in the event of pregnancy.
Not so common I suggest. What is common though is that the thought of abstaining from sex is rejected as too difficult. It surely is difficult.

Pope St JP II addressed and rejected this notion that “intentions and circumstances” could make the difference between immoral (in general) acts and moral (in specific cases) acts.

*56. In order to justify these positions, some authors have proposed a kind of double status of moral truth. Beyond the doctrinal and abstract level, one would have to acknowledge the priority of a certain more concrete existential consideration. The latter, by taking account of circumstances and the situation, could legitimately be the basis of certain exceptions to the general rule and thus permit one to do in practice and in good conscience what is qualified as intrinsically evil by the moral law. A separation, or even an opposition, is thus established in some cases between the teaching of the precept, which is valid in general, and the norm of the individual conscience, which would in fact make the final decision about what is good and what is evil. On this basis, an attempt is made to legitimize so-called “pastoral” solutions contrary to the teaching of the Magisterium, and to justify a “creative” hermeneutic according to which the moral conscience is in no way obliged, in every case, by a particular negative precept. * VS56

In respect of Intrincally Evil acts, the Pope goes on:

*These are the acts which, in the Church’s moral tradition, have been termed “intrinsically evil” (intrinsece malum): they are such always and per se, in other words, on account of their very object, and quite apart from the ulterior intentions of the one acting and the circumstances. Consequently, without in the least denying the influence on morality exercised by circumstances and especially by intentions, the Church teaches that “there exist acts which per se and in themselves, independently of circumstances, are always seriously wrong by reason of their object”. * VS80

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor.html
 
…Not just repeating phrases like intrinsically evil over and over again. 😦
I agree. The debate though has not been with the OP. I don’t believe that conveyors of false teaching can be left unchallenged.
 
Your repeated references to Canon Law, and the complete absence of references to Church teachings, suggests very strongly you are making this up as you go. Canon Law is neither the source nor the vessel of Church Teachings.
You are stating categorical blanket statements that, again, as I have stated repeatedly, have no basis for application in real-life scenarios.

As stated earlier, going back to the very earliest of Biblical times, this is exactly why Moses instituted tribunals - to apply the Law to real-life situations. It is no different today.

In the most simplest terms, in hopes that you will finally understand:

We can agree on the Ten Commandments. We can disagree as to their application under real life scenarios. (I don’t know how many more times I have to repeat myself.)

As far as Church teachings, you might want to carefully re-read the thread. I gave several very specific descriptions multiple times of our most basic and fundamental Christian beliefs as outlined in Church teachings.
The teaching that Contraception is intrinsically evil is not generalised, but in fact highly specific and definitive. My only agenda is to express what the Church teaches. You clearly have another, given you don’t reference Church Teaching at all.
See above.
When the Church says “no intentions or circumstances can render an intrinsically evil act good”, your response, apparently, is to say…“that’s merely a general guide”? Seriously?
Take the commandment, “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. You keep stating - “It is the commandment in black and white. There it is. It is what the Church teaches. You cannot deny it. All the Popes agree! It’s recited here and here, etc.”

I am saying - Yes, there is the commandment. However, there are also nuances to the commandment when applied to real life:
Do you not have the right to kill in a situation of self-defense?
What determines self-defense?
Who gets to decide when it is self-defense versus when it is murder?
How about just war?
What about in the case of a combatant in an unjust war?

The nuances are endless, which is why religious law throughout the ages is comprised of thousands of debates, arguments, and counter-arguments.

Your response: “But the Pope says Thou Shalt Not Kill! Ever! And if anyone disagrees, they are advocating Intrinsic Evil. We must warn all potential converts! It is written here and here!”

It’s almost comical. My only point: We must show compassion to converts and not be so quick as to use our interpretation of Church teaching to condemn and ostracize.
In respect of Intrincally Evil acts, the Pope goes on:
See above.
We need to be gentle and patient and understanding of where a person is. Praying with them. Matching them up with resources. Not just repeating phrases like intrinsically evil over and over again.
Amen. Hallelujah! I could not agree more. In the words of Ace Ventura, Pet Detective, “We have ex-or-cised the demons!”
 
…Your response: "But the Pope says Thou Shalt Not Kill! Ever!
The Church teaches that Murder is intrinsically evil. Not killing. “Killing” - is a word absent moral content.

Murdering is the intentional killing of an innocent. Abortion is an example. If you know of any scenario where **murder **is moral, please let us know. Or does it depend on the situation?
 
And I have referenced a very specific, unique situation: A mother could very much want more children. She could want a growing family. But, due to medical issues, a pregnancy would result in her certain death. NFP is not the answer, and neither is permanent abstinence for the next 50 years of her life. The mother has an obligation to protect herself from certain death, as well as to keep the marriage and family intact.

No one is advocating for contraception for whimsical, personal pleasure. Let’s get our facts straight. I am referring to a common scenario where a mother faces certain death in the event of pregnancy.
Exactly how contraception can prevent a death if none of the contraceptive methods are 100% effective? There are risks of getting pregnant with contraceptives.
 
Do you not have the right to kill in a situation of self-defense?
What determines self-defense?
Who gets to decide when it is self-defense versus when it is murder?
How about just war?
What about in the case of a combatant in an unjust war?
These moral principles are well understood today, and in fact have been so for a very long time. Tell me - when was the last time in Church history there was doubt as to whether one could kill (when necessary) in self-defence? Aquinas was clear that you could in the 1200s.
The nuances are endless, which is why religious law throughout the ages is comprised of thousands of debates, arguments, and counter-arguments.
Is there any debate that Murder is an intrinsic evil, never permitted? Nuances more commonly arise in these circumstances:
  • unclear whether the act is the intrinsically evil act;
  • the act is not intrinsically evil, but there is debate about whether it is condemned because of evil intentions or a poor balance of consequences.
It’s almost comical.
Your attempt to assert that white can be black in appropriate circumstances is what is comical.
 
If you know of any scenario where murder is moral, please let us know. Or does it depend on the situation?
Moses murdered an Egyptian (Exodus 2:11). And it was a moral act if you understand the context and the underlying story behind the murder.

Simeon and Levi murdered Schechem, his father Hamor, and all the males of the town of Schechem, in revenge for Dinah’s rape (Genesis 34:25). It too, was a moral act, even though Jacob was quite angry and upset about the matter.

God murdered the firstborn in Egypt. God also murdered all of the people that lived during Noah’s time, aside from Noah and his family. These, too, were all moral acts.

Three angels, acting on the direction of God, murdered (through incineration) all of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah aside from Laban and his family. The surrounding villages of Sodom and Gomorrah were also destroyed.

God commanded Moses to direct the Levites to murder all of their brethren that worshiped the Golden Calf (Exodus 32:28).

I could recite several more if you please. The Bible has numerous instances where murder is clearly portrayed as a moral, even necessary, act.

In our modern day, our brave U.S. soldiers murder enemy combatants, sometimes from far away, and sometimes up close in hand-to-hand combat.
Is there any debate that Murder is an intrinsic evil, never permitted?
See above. I can hardly wait to hear your argument against the God of Israel.
 
Moses murdered an Egyptian (Exodus 2:11). And it was a moral act if you understand the context and the underlying story behind the murder.

Simeon and Levi murdered Schechem, his father Hamor, and all the males of the town of Schechem, in revenge for Dinah’s rape (Genesis 34:25). It too, was a moral act, even though Jacob was quite angry and upset about the matter.

God murdered the firstborn in Egypt. God also murdered all of the people that lived during Noah’s time, aside from Noah and his family. These, too, were all moral acts.

Three angels, acting on the direction of God, murdered (through incineration) all of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah aside from Laban and his family. The surrounding villages of Sodom and Gomorrah were also destroyed.

God commanded Moses to direct the Levites to murder all of their brethren that worshiped the Golden Calf (Exodus 32:28).

I could recite several more if you please. The Bible has numerous instances where murder is clearly portrayed as a moral, even necessary, act.

In our modern day, our brave U.S. soldiers murder enemy combatants, sometimes from far away, and sometimes up close in hand-to-hand combat.

See above. I can hardly wait to hear your argument against the God of Israel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top