The Only Way to Escape Hell

[dshix]

Am I the only one here who has no clue what this guy is talking about?
Show of hands…

I would have said yes yesterday, but I figured it out over time.

He’s trying to make the point that hell does not truly exist, and that Jesus and God are too loving and Merciful to make us suffer eternal suffering.

Interestingly, my parish priest gave a very compelling sermon this last Sunday on that very topic! hehe.

 

[JustaServant]

I would have said yes yesterday, but I figured it out over time.

He’s trying to make the point that hell does not truly exist, and that Jesus and God are too loving and Merciful to make us suffer eternal suffering.

Interestingly, my parish priest gave a very compelling sermon this last Sunday on that very topic! hehe.

I’m just trying to figure out what that has to do with “replacment theology” and Moses.

 

[dshix]

I’m just trying to figure out what that has to do with “replacment theology” and Moses.

Well, besides what I said, he’s all over the map.

 

[bilop]

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear, I was asking what ‘salvation’ would have meant/means to Jews because it didn’t/doesn’t mean the same thing as it does to Christians.

Well, Catholics don’t believe that.

Our religion is universal. Everyone goes to Heaven (with a likely stop in Purgatory) or Hell. Same options whether you’re Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or pagan.

Our teaching is that everyone who reaches Heaven will have accepted Jesus (at least implicitly) and will be Catholic.

So, non-Catholics can go to Heaven, it’s just that they’re Catholic once they get there.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

I would have said yes yesterday, but I figured it out over time.

He’s trying to make the point that hell does not truly exist, and that Jesus and God are too loving and Merciful to make us suffer eternal suffering.

Interestingly, my parish priest gave a very compelling sermon this last Sunday on that very topic! hehe.

I’m pretty sure that’s heretical teaching. The existence of Hell is de Fide, as far as I’ve ever heard.

God Bless

 

[CopticChristian]

Bilop, listen to this logic: If you follow the Law, you do not transgress it. If you do not transgress the Law, you have nothing to fear. You are saved of punishment. Therefore, to obey the Law is the path to salvation. Does it make sense to you or not? The very same happens to God’s Law, which was given to keep us in the path of salvation.

Shibolet,

Christians are called to use Reason, Revelation to come to belief through Faith…with that understanding we are to live out our life in Christ to be conformed to Christ so that we might be reformed and transformed to Christ and then live our lives by adhering to the Moral law and exercising prayer for strength.

Now this is all done with grace, as on your own you can do nothing.

Salvation is from sin because in living the moral law, avoiding sin, the sin that damages our relationship with God, we become more like the first born of all creation, Christ. This is all done in accordance with understanding that we are called to be children of God and so we are.

All is done as we are called by the Father to become member of the family through Christ in the unity of the Holy Spirit so that we may fulfill our purpose in creation, ie unity with the heavenly Father.

True freedom is understanding that Christ had a human/divine will and they cooperated. We have a human will and have the ability by grace to ascent to the Divine Will and we too are free from fear because there is no fear in living like Christ with our human will aligned with the Divine will. True freedom is freedom from fear. Yes there is a hell. You should get a concordance and see that Jesus spoke of Hell more than any other figure in the NT.

 

[dshix]

I’m pretty sure that’s heretical teaching. The existence of Hell is de Fide, as far as I’ve ever heard.

God Bless

Yep. Haha, if you don’t think Hell exists, you’ll be in for a big surprise when you get there!

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m pretty sure that’s heretical teaching. The existence of Hell is de Fide, as far as I’ve ever heard.

God Bless

Bilop,

Yes Dorothy…there is a Hell…

dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web?fcoid=417&fcop=topnav&fpid=27&q=catechism+hell&ql=

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

It appears that there are some that deny this as found here and that may be where Shib gets ideas…believing it comes from Catholic Theologians…

tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

Most of what we believe about hell comes from Catholicism and ignorance of the Old Testament, not from the Bible. This study will cause you to re-examine current teaching on hell and urge you to further study on what happens to the wicked after death.

This appears to be a back door evangelization undermining the notion of Eternal punishment and focusing on eternal reward.

 

[AbideWithMe]

The OP lists ECT. A google search of “Which church is ECT” came up with “House of God ECT”. Search of “House of God” came up with this:

houseofgod.org/doctrine.html

Hebrew Pentecostal. No explanation for what ECT stands for. 14th doctrine denies the Trinity, says Father, Son, Holy Spirit merely titles of God.

Shibolet lists his religion as ETC, not ECT. I read over that House of God website, and they appear to be modalists from what they say. However, they don’t seem to have a beef about Paul, and they believe in hell, so our OP must be trying to promote something else.

Maybe he just means et cetera by ETC?

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, Catholics don’t believe that.

Our religion is universal. Everyone goes to Heaven (with a likely stop in Purgatory) or Hell. Same options whether you’re Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or pagan.

Our teaching is that everyone who reaches Heaven will have accepted Jesus (at least implicitly) and will be Catholic.

So, non-Catholics can go to Heaven, it’s just that they’re Catholic once they get there.

God Bless

Probably because I’ve been unclear we seem to be talking past one another.

You had said:

And Jesus is speaking to Jews before his death and Resurrection. For them, at that time, following Jewish law was the path to salvation.

Which led me to wonder what it was that you thought that Jews at that time and onwards until now believed/believe about the concept of ‘salvation’.

Having been around for some time, I’ve picked up quite a bit about what Catholics believe, by the way.

 

[Shibolet]

I dispute your interpretation, not the parable. In the text Jesus says that if they(the pharisees) didn’t listen to the law and the prophets they then they wouldn’t believe in the resurrection, this text does not say that you must fulfil every aspect of the 613 mosaic laws in order to avoid hell.

While we are on the topic, what do you make of Luke 16:16? "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.

And yes the Old Testament and Old Covenants foreshadows the New. The New Testament fulfils the Old, this is core christian teaching, Christ is the longed for Messiah, The Davidic king, the New covenant. I’ve never heard of replacement theology before so I cannot comment on it.

Two reasons why Jesus did not have the Pharisees in mind with this parable: First, none more than the Pharisees listened to the Law and the Prophets; and second, didn’t the Pharisees believe in the resurrection? Read Acts 23:8. Then, when did I ever say that this text says anything about the 613 commandments? No connection to.

Luke 16:16 is a confirmation of what Jesus had in mind with the parable in discussion. The attitude that Paul and the hellenistic Jews in general had with regards to God’s Law.

Your last paragraph is a classic promotion of the Pauline policy of Replacement Theolory.

 

[dshix]

Shibolet, I am once again not sure what you are trying to convince us of. I got the whole idea that you think that hell is a figment of our imaginations (which is false) but what else do you have to say?

I find myself not understanding most of your posts.

 

[Shibolet]

Shibolet, right now we’re trying to figure out where your ideas are coming from so we can better understand them. Knowing your religion is a big clue, and hiding it from us gets you no advantage.

I am Jewish. So, for the good of everyone else, I’ll add this information in my profile.

 

[Shibolet]

All right, I am changing that info in my profile. I meant to scout the territory first before giving off my real identity. I am Jewish.

 

[dshix]

I am Jewish. So, for the good of everyone else, I’ll add this information in my profile.

Well that adds a whole new perspective! Thanks for letting us know.

 

[Shibolet]

If you are an Atheist then why not simply say so? Your not going to get drummed off the forums simply for being an Atheist. We agree that the Truth is important, and people are curious as to what ETC stands for, so why not just tell them what it means?

“Stam!” as we say in Hebrew; it doesn’t mean anything. I am Jewish.

 

[Shibolet]

…

Well, at least it’s obvious you are not Catholic. First, I’ll say that you put words in my mouth. I never said that the only reason to love God is for fear of Hell, I said that if there is no Hell, then there is no encouragement for people who do not obey God to do so.

And, by the way, by Catholic teaching there IS a hell, no matter how much you make your self feel warm and fluffy inside by saying there is not. If you are not Catholic, I guess that doesn’t matter to you, but to us it does.

You are right. It doesn’t matter to me. Jews do not believe in hell. But with regards to your
first paragraph above, you have only confirmed the assertion that to serve God for fear of hell is a conditional loyalty. It means exactly the same Pauline attitude. If there is no hell why waste the time?

 

[dshix]

You are right. It doesn’t matter to me. Jews do not believe in hell. But with regards to your
first paragraph above, you have only confirmed the assertion that to serve God for fear of hell is a conditional loyalty. It means exactly the same Pauline attitude. If there is no hell why waste the time?

But the problem is that there IS a hell. There is not a question about it, for Catholics. We have been definitively told by the Church, infallibly, that Hell is real.

 

[Shibolet]

what are the two greatest laws according to Jesus - the ones all christians obey - or try to.

Once, one of the Scribes approached Jesus and asked which was the first of all the commandments: Jesus answered and said: “This is the first: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is absolutely One, and the Only Lord.’ (Mark 12:29) So, as such we must love Him. And the second is to love our neighbor as ourselves.” Now, my question is: Do all Christians obey these two commandments or at least try to? Not that it is my business, but you implied above.

 

[Shibolet]

This is nonsense. Anyone can read Acts 21 for themselves.

"When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: 'You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.’" Acts 21:17-25

What did Paul do to defend himself from the accusation that he was preaching to the Jews
against Moses? Nothing. Silence is a confession of guilt. Worse than that, he accepted James’ suggestion to join four Jews who had a vow to fulfill in the Temple and camouflage
himself as an observant of the Law when he himself had no vow to fulfill. That was deeply embarrassing. But since God is not to mock, there were Jews from Asia at that festival in Jerusalem who acknowledged Paul in the Temple and arrested him. (Acts 21:28) I don’t wonder that Paul would agree with that disguising. He had declared himself that he would behave according to any circumstances, no matter what, and be alll things to all men, as we have in I Corinthians 9:19-23. But James, the borther of Jesus! I wonder why he would suggest such an act of hypocrisy.