The Only Way to Escape Hell

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Shibolet said:
Well Jharek, I don’t believe I said anything that’s not actually true. To obey God’s Law with an eye in the rewards of Heaven or for fear of going to hell is to bribe in exchange for what one can get in return. Does it seem anything else?
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Shib,

There are many ways of looking at the same thing. The point is this.

God calls us as we respond.

If we respond because of fear of hell, well then that is a beginning…

If we respond because of hope for heaven that too is a beginning…

We respond because of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God…and in doing so as a result of a sacramental life, in particular Baptism and Confirmation…theologic virtues…and the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit allow us to grow…one of those gifts is fear of the Lord…

So perhaps it is fear that is the response or perhaps it is hope that is the response but in the end as we grow…we still have a gift of fear of the Lord coupled with hope…but in the end as we grow we grow to use Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Counsel, etc we bear fruits…charity, joy,peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control and chastity.

Do you fear the Lord?

God is Holy…and to contemplate the Holy of Holy…should you not have a healthy fear?
 
Shibolet said:
Protestants use the same Bible as Catholics do. How do you explain the friction? We all use the same Bible. The issue is not what the Bible says but what we do with it.

To be liable to the hell of fire is a symbol to pay for the consequences to have offended our neighbor.

Rich man goes to hell! That was a parable. A parable is like an allegory. An allegory is like a dream one has. Metaphorical language must be interpreted metaphorically. The only thing real in a parable is the message the speaker intends to convay. In the case of the Richman and Lazarus it was to confirm the validity of Moses, aka the Law.

Hell in Biblical language is not a place of fire but the grave where the demons are the gnats and maggots. What is forever about this kind of hell is that one will never return from it. Read Job 10:21; 2 Chron. 12:23; Prov. 2:19.

Jesus could not have dispatched all those insults upon the Pharisees for two reasons. He was of the line of the Pharisees himself and because he would have offended them and broken the Golden Rule that says not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto us. Bing it a sin to offend another, Jesus could no longer be sinless.

What Jesus meant by kingdom of Heaven was a state of mind we must invite into ourselves. That’s what he meant in Luke 17:21 when he said the kingdom of Heaven is to be found within ourselves.

It seems rather that Jesus was speaking about hell in metaphorical language and not literally. Jesus was a Jewish man, and Jews do not believe in hell other than the grave.

Nobody born of a woman can be an infalible source. Keep that in mind and never forget it.
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You threw aside every quote I gave as… false? You doubt that Jesus ACTUALLY said these things? I’m sorry, but the words in the Gospels are the disciples actually recording Jesus’ words, and they didn’t lie.

As for the parable, the idea that Jesus would speak of Hell, and a cruel rich man going to hell, and Lazarus going to Heaven and seeing the rich man in Hell, but really there is no Hell, is incredibly illogical. Jesus gave parables to teach, not confuse.
 
dshix said:
You threw aside every quote I gave as… false? You doubt that Jesus ACTUALLY said these things? I’m sorry, but the words in the Gospels are the disciples actually recording Jesus’ words, and they didn’t lie.

As for the parable, the idea that Jesus would speak of Hell, and a cruel rich man going to hell, and Lazarus going to Heaven and seeing the rich man in Hell, but really there is no Hell, is incredibly illogical. Jesus gave parables to teach, not confuse.
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DS,

This is true unless you believe in the great Apostasy and the notion that the Bible is corrupt.:eek:
 
pig said:
All of your laws are directed to an end; and this end is simple, Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbour as yourself. We are called to be good to one another, that is our mission and the ultimate purpose of any of those laws.
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What can I do, repeat the same post to which you have given this reply above to? That’s what happens when you insist with “what” and I with “how.” While you go in general, I go with the details.
 
CopticChristian said:
Shib,

There are many ways of looking at the same thing. The point is this.

God calls us as we respond.

If we respond because of fear of hell, well then that is a beginning…

If we respond because of hope for heaven that too is a beginning…

We respond because of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God…and in doing so as a result of a sacramental life, in particular Baptism and Confirmation…theologic virtues…and the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit allow us to grow…one of those gifts is fear of the Lord…

So perhaps it is fear that is the response or perhaps it is hope that is the response but in the end as we grow…we still have a gift of fear of the Lord coupled with hope…but in the end as we grow we grow to use Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Counsel, etc we bear fruits…charity, joy,peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control and chastity.

Do you fear the Lord?

God is Holy…and to contemplate the Holy of Holy…should you not have a healthy fear?
Click to expand...
To fear the Lord, as far as I am concerned, is to learn as much as I can of the Lord. Hence the words of the Qohelet, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.” (Prov. 1:7) That’s how I fear the Lord. The more I know about the Lord, the more I love Him.
 
Shibolet said:
THE ONLY WAY TO ESCAPE HELL

That’s from one of Jesus’ parables. The one about the Richman and Lazarus. There was a certain rich man, who, somehow, due to his opulence and pride, as well as his uncharitable life, he ended up with his being thrown in Hell as his afterlife punishment. Lazarus, on the other hand, due to his patience in spite of his ordeal, got to go to Heaven, which in Jesus’ words, meant the bosom of Abraham.

And in Hell, the Richman lifted up his eyes, being in torments, look at Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and asked for mercy, if not for him, for his family. If Abraham could send Lazarus to his family to testify to them, so that they could escape the torments of Hell. Then, Jesus, through Abraham’s mouth said: “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.”

The Richman insisted that if one went to them from the dead, they would repent. Then, Jesus, through Abraham, said, “If they don’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” (Luke 16:19-31)

This prophectic parable has been fulfilled every day for about 2000 years. Christians believe that Jesus has been raised from the dead, but it seems to me, there is no way to persuade them to listen to Moses and the Prophets.

The expression “Moses and the Prophets” means the Law in one word. Christians prefer to listen to Paul and not to Moses. They either do not believe Jesus’ words or that Hell does not exist. It was just a parable anyway, what the heck? At least, they should believe the Prophets for a change. The only way to set things right with God, so that our sins become as white as snow is to repent from our transgressions to the Law and return to obey it. (Isa. 1:18,19) Jesus couldn’t have been more clear, that to listen to Moses is the only way to escape Hell.

Ben
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Well to begin with you kinda missed the whole moral of the story I believe.

It is not about who the rich man listened to as much as how the rich man lived his life. What Jesus was saying is you heard Moses and you refused to obey him, so why do you think they will listen to you.

It truly has nothing to do with who is teaching the word in this parable it has to do with doing the will of God. No matter who you hear it from.

And if Jesus could not have been more clear, you sure missed the point. Jesus never said listening to Moses is what saves your from hell. Jesus told us Salvation is through him, not the words of Moses.

Jesus said the only way to get to the Father is through me. Not the words of Moses.🤷
 
Shibolet said:
To fear the Lord, as far as I am concerned, is to learn as much as I can of the Lord. Hence the words of the Qohelet, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.” (Prov. 1:7) That’s how I fear the Lord. The more I know about the Lord, the more I love Him.
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Then listen to his words.

This is my beloved Son do as he says.😉
 
dshix said:
You threw aside every quote I gave as… false? You doubt that Jesus ACTUALLY said these things? I’m sorry, but the words in the Gospels are the disciples actually recording Jesus’ words, and they didn’t lie.

As for the parable, the idea that Jesus would speak of Hell, and a cruel rich man going to hell, and Lazarus going to Heaven and seeing the rich man in Hell, but really there is no Hell, is incredibly illogical. Jesus gave parables to teach, not confuse.
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No, I did not. I read all of them. I just can’t write a reply to everything because people usually don’t read too long posts. And about what Jesus said or was said about him, I have
already 20% settled in my mind as good as gold. I mean, I have come to this forum with already 20% that I believe of the NT. The other 80% is still in the limbo of anti-Jewish interpolations to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. I am open-minded though. If anyone here has what it takes to persuade me otherwise, I’ll have no qualms to consider Catholicism.

When you say, for instance, that Jesus’ disciples were actually recording in the gospels what Jesus would say, I see that you ignore the Catholic records prefaced by the Bishop’s Commitee that organized the Catholic New American version of the Bible. It is all recorded
that the gospels were written 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. They actually bring the dates for every gospel. So, it rules out your claim that the disciples of Jesus would record Jesus’ words in the gospels as they were issued.

And for the parables, have you ever read why Jesus would speak in parables? So that only the elected would listen and understood. It means that to most of the listeners it was confusing. IWO, one must have some mastery of metaphorical language to understand the meaning of parables.
 
Shibolet said:
No, I did not. I read all of them. I just can’t write a reply to everything because people usually don’t read too long posts. And about what Jesus said or was said about him, I have
already 20% settled in my mind as good as gold. I mean, I have come to this forum with already 20% that I believe of the NT. The other 80% is still in the limbo of anti-Jewish interpolations to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. I am open-minded though. If anyone here has what it takes to persuade me otherwise, I’ll have no qualms to consider Catholicism.

When you say, for instance, that Jesus’ disciples were actually recording in the gospels what Jesus would say, I see that you ignore the Catholic records prefaced by the Bishop’s Commitee that organized the Catholic New American version of the Bible. It is all recorded
that the gospels were written 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. They actually bring the dates for every gospel. So, it rules out your claim that the disciples of Jesus would record Jesus’ words in the gospels as they were issued.

And for the parables, have you ever read why Jesus would speak in parables? So that only the elected would listen and understood. It means that to most of the listeners it was confusing. IWO, one must have some mastery of metaphorical language to understand the meaning of parables.
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Ah, so now you are saying that the words which Jesus said were not recorded accurately.

Hmm.

My friend, you are going all over the map. You are making a lot of claims which have no foundation. The apostles were given inspiration by the Holy Spirit to remember what Jesus had said, and to record them properly.

It is extremely hard to have a coherent conversation when a person to jumping all over the place instead of just staying on one point; “Does hell exist?”

Please answer that question, and not others.
 
Sorry Jharek, I think we should stop wasting our time with this bichering and return to the
Scriptures. That’s where the Truth is.
 
rinnie said:
Well to begin with you kinda missed the whole moral of the story I believe.

It is not about who the rich man listened to as much as how the rich man lived his life. What Jesus was saying is you heard Moses and you refused to obey him, so why do you think they will listen to you.

It truly has nothing to do with who is teaching the word in this parable it has to do with doing the will of God. No matter who you hear it from.

And if Jesus could not have been more clear, you sure missed the point. Jesus never said listening to Moses is what saves your from hell. Jesus told us Salvation is through him, not the words of Moses.

Jesus said the only way to get to the Father is through me. Not the words of Moses.🤷
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If you are to be given the benefit of the doubt, there are contradictions in the gospels. The Richman is in hell, according to Jesus’ parable, he asks for someone from the dead to be
sent to his family to warn them not to come to the same place, and Jesus tells him that if they don’t listen to “Moses,” there is no other way. Now, you are telling me that’s not true.
Watch! You are becoming unware of contradictions.

Wow! So, Jesus told you that salvation is through him? Interesting! He told me that salvation is from the Jews. Take a look at John 4:22 if it is not so. If you do, focus on the words: He said “from the Jews” and not from one among the Jews.
 
rinnie said:
Then listen to his words.

This is my beloved Son do as he says.😉
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Now Ninnie, would you do yourself a favor? Open the only Scriptures that Jesus considered the Word of God and read in Baruch 3:37. Here it is what it says, in case you don’t have a Bible available. “…Israel, God’s beloved son.” If that’s not enough, you might want to try Exodus 4:22,23. “Israel is My son; so let My son go, that he may serve Me.”
Now, you know that the real son of God is collective in Israel and not in the individual. Jesus was indeed part of the son of God during the 33 years of his life here on earth because he was a Jew.
 
All right. Go right ahead and try to reconcile this “false dilemma.” I am all ears to your opinion.
 
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