The Only Way to Jesus is Through Mary?

[COLOS]

Pray for me. I cannot fathom this.

One thing I hear people say is that Mary was obedient and she said yes. True, but if an archangel appeared to me and said the God of Abraham is going to father a child through me and he will be the child of the most high, and I will be the mother of this child, most likely I would say, “Yes!”

Seriously, who would say no to that? That’s better than your child marrying a prince!

I might be scared and uncertain, but God chose me. me, little ole Mary!

Joseph is the one who deserves praise for agreeing to marry a pregnant woman.

I’m curious what you think of St. Luke 2:51.

Read the verse. God chose to be subject to the Blessed Virgin Mary. That thought alone ought to blow your mind. St. Alphonsus has much to say about her.

God did not “only” choose Mary. She was ordained from the foundation of the world. Her free will was always respected, but she was ordained to be His Mother and ours…she wasn’t simply chosen as the best woman out of all the women that were available at that particular time. God the Father is her Father. God the Son is her Son. God the Holy Ghost is her spouse. No, this was no random woman who was “trading up” as if marrying a prince. The only Eternal God created his own Mother. He saw her before the earth was made. He knew her from all eternity. She is the ark of the new covenant.

I’ve come to believe that a low view of Mary reflects a low view of Jesus (which is quite an odd statement coming from a convert, lol. When I was a protestant, in a million years I never would’ve thought I would ever say something like that).

Peace,
Andrew

 

[TrueLight]

I’m curious what you think of St. Luke 2:51.

Read the verse. God chose to be subject to the Blessed Virgin Mary. That thought alone ought to blow your mind. St. Alphonsus has much to say about her.

Yes, it blows my mind that God chose to subject himself to human beings. Note that he subjected himself to them - Mary AND Joseph. It was fitting that Jesus should be honorable in all things. Honor thy father and they mother is Commandment 5 after all. God also chose to submit himself to Pontius Pilate and be crucified when he could have summoned a legion of angels.

God did not “only” choose Mary. She was ordained from the foundation of the world. Her free will was always respected, but she was ordained to be His Mother and ours…she wasn’t simply chosen as the best woman out of all the women that were available at that particular time. God the Father is her Father. God the Son is her Son. God the Holy Ghost is her spouse. No, this was no random woman who was “trading up” as if marrying a prince. The only Eternal God created his own Mother.

I think it bears saying here that I don’t have any objections to Mary being called the Mother of God in the sense that the Word of God, who became a human was fully God and so the mother of Jesus could be said to be God’s mother. However, let us remember that
God existed before he became flesh and no one birthed him until he became flesh.

He saw her before the earth was made. He knew her from all eternity.

And what a wonderful honor that was, that a human being should be destined to be the mother of the Messiah. Yes, God who is outside of time often consecrates human beings for wonderful works, the same way he consecrated Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 1:5 - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

I’ve come to believe that a low view of Mary reflects a low view of Jesus (which is quite an odd statement coming from a convert, lol.

I don’t see myself as having a low view of Mary. Blessed is she among all women. I just don’t see her as akin to deity. She was the portal through which the Word was made flesh, but she is not the portal to Jesus who sits at the right hand of the Father.

I do not need to go through Mary to reach Jesus.

I bow down to the one true God and Him alone.

When Jesus was transfigured, he appeared with both Abraham and Moses. Wow, they must be important that Jesus would choose them out of all the Saints.I don’t see any statues to them in the church. Elijah did not die but was taken up to heaven in a chariot. Imagine that! What made him worthy of that? So then why should one passage of the Queen of Heaven in Revelation have a big role in creating Mary into something she was not. I don’t think anyone can provide proof that any of the twelve apostles ascribed this great honor to Mary.

When I was a protestant, in a million years I never would’ve thought I would ever say something like that).

Peace,
Andrew

Conversion indeed is a process. It’s a conversion of the mind and soul. Maybe one day I will get there and maybe I won’t. I do appreciate your comments though.

 

[Segoye]

At the wedding in Cannan they went to JESUS through MARY! Despite the fact that it was not the time for Him to do His Ministry. But because She had found favor with God, they received answer through Her. Note here that the organizers of the wedding were already under the devil’s attack. Because wine got finished, devil saw a chance and used it to afflict the organizers with the demon of confusion. But because this Jews knew that whenever their fathers faced any attack, they will run to God through the Arc of Covenant given to their fathers through Moses. So traditionaly the organizers of the wedding in their state of confusion found grace to run to God for deliverance through Mary - THE LIVING ARC OF COVENANT given to us at the Annunciation by God through the Angel.
Like the Jews of old, often times we fall under devil’s attack and because we may lack the Grace to approach God and be sure of getting answers to our prayers, there is no other way out than to go through THE LIVING ARCH OF THE NEW COVENANT - BLESSED VIRGIN MARY FULL OF GRACE.
She is full of Grace for our sake that when we lack the grace to go to God our Father, Her fullness of Grace will always see us through to the THRONE OF MERCY OF GOD our Father.
So if in my state of sin, I can reach God going through Her, How much more will the joy of God fill my life if I approach God through her when am in the state of Grace.
Glory to JESUS, Honor to MARY.

 

[mark_avery]

I think a real obvious insight into this, is to think of such…so,If the Father chose Mary,how could we not also…

 

[hazcompat]

I agree that this is indeed beautifully said. A nice portrait of Mary.

However, I can’t really wrap my mind about this part: “And if we begin our Christian path with Mary - she will only lead us to her Son.” At least not right now.

I am already a Christian, but if I met someone who was interested in Christianity, I would start with Christ.

they start with you.

peace

 

[COLOS]

Yes, it blows my mind that God chose to subject himself to human beings. Note that he subjected himself to them - Mary AND Joseph. It was fitting that Jesus should be honorable in all things. Honor thy father and they mother is Commandment 5 after all. God also chose to submit himself to Pontius Pilate and be crucified when he could have summoned a legion of angels.

Misses the point, I believe. St. Joesph was His foster father. His actual Father is God the Father. His actual Mother is Mary. He perfectly fulfilled and continues to fulfill the honoring of His Father and mother.

However, let us remember that God existed before he became flesh and no one birthed him until he became flesh.

That’s true. But no woman gives birth to a nature only. A woman gives birth to a person, and not only to a nature. The person of Jesus Christ has two natures. To say that she only gave birth to His human nature is to distort what motherhood actually is. She truly is the Mother of God. She is not merely the mother of His humanity.

I believe there was a council in the early Church which addressed this very thing.

I don’t see myself as having a low view of Mary. Blessed is she among all women. I just don’t see her as akin to deity. She was the portal through which the Word was made flesh, but she is not the portal to Jesus who sits at the right hand of the Father.

She isn’t a portal. She is a person. Reducing her to nothing more than an incubator is a distortion of her role in salvation, and she most defninately had and has a very great role.

I do not need to go through Mary to reach Jesus.

I bow down to the one true God and Him alone.

Yeah, I had to clear up the difference between latria, hyperdulia, and dulia as well. No one here bows down to the Blessed Virgin Mary instead of God.

So then why should one passage of the Queen of Heaven in Revelation have a big role in creating Mary into something she was not. I don’t think anyone can provide proof that any of the twelve apostles ascribed this great honor to Mary.

Yeah, takes a bit of study. The reality is that God didn’t leave you only a book to help save your soul from hell, He left you His spotless Bride, the Church. There is no other Church which stretches back to the time of the apostles. There was no corruption of Christianity. There was no embelishment of Marian Dogmas. There was no embrace of paganism in the guise of Christianity.

It does take a bit of study, but even Sacred Scripture tells you that you must study.

Conversion indeed is a process. It’s a conversion of the mind and soul. Maybe one day I will get there and maybe I won’t. I do appreciate your comments though.

Yup, that’s true. If you are intent on following Christ regardless of the personal cost to you, then you will indeed get to where you are supposed to be. Somtimes the cost is shocking, though. I was very shocked to begin to suspect that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. Took a good ten years of study and questioning everything, lol.

I know that apologetics can sometimes become abrasive, so I tend to steer clear of it. But its worth the effort to communicate to you that I’ve said and believed almost exactly what you’ve stated here. It is utterly impossible for you to believe what the Church teaches. You just can’t. Not on your own. The faith is a gift from God. It is supernatural in origin. You can’t believe the Marian Dogmas or even really grasp the idea Eucharistic adoration. Belief in the unbelievable is a gift from God to you. No man can convince himself that these things are true. It’s just not possible.

It starts with a simple and honest prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ that you will follow Him wherever He leads, even if by grace He leads you to Catholicism. The claims of the Catholic Church are too incredible to ignore. Most people ignore those claims, believing that they already have the truth. I ignored them until my own religion was pulled out from under me by discovering that it wasn’t even Christian to begin with. Took quite a long time of careful study and prayer to come to where I am now. And all of that by the grace of God.

Anywho, I commit you in my heart to Our Lady of Sorrows.

Peace,
Andrew

 

[TrueLight]

Misses the point, I believe. St. Joesph was His foster father. His actual Father is God the Father. His actual Mother is Mary. He perfectly fulfilled and continues to fulfill the honoring of His Father and mother.

That’s true. But no woman gives birth to a nature only. A woman gives birth to a person, and not only to a nature. The person of Jesus Christ has two natures. To say that she only gave birth to His human nature is to distort what motherhood actually is. She truly is the Mother of God. She is not merely the mother of His humanity.

I believe there was a council in the early Church which addressed this very thing.

She isn’t a portal. She is a person. Reducing her to nothing more than an incubator is a distortion of her role in salvation, and she most defninately had and has a very great role.

Yeah, I had to clear up the difference between latria, hyperdulia, and dulia as well. No one here bows down to the Blessed Virgin Mary instead of God.

Yeah, takes a bit of study. The reality is that God didn’t leave you only a book to help save your soul from hell, He left you His spotless Bride, the Church. There is no other Church which stretches back to the time of the apostles. There was no corruption of Christianity. There was no embelishment of Marian Dogmas. There was no embrace of paganism in the guise of Christianity.

It does take a bit of study, but even Sacred Scripture tells you that you must study.

Yup, that’s true. If you are intent on following Christ regardless of the personal cost to you, then you will indeed get to where you are supposed to be. Somtimes the cost is shocking, though. I was very shocked to begin to suspect that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. Took a good ten years of study and questioning everything, lol.

I know that apologetics can sometimes become abrasive, so I tend to steer clear of it. But its worth the effort to communicate to you that I’ve said and believed almost exactly what you’ve stated here. It is utterly impossible for you to believe what the Church teaches. You just can’t. Not on your own. The faith is a gift from God. It is supernatural in origin. You can’t believe the Marian Dogmas or even really grasp the idea Eucharistic adoration. Belief in the unbelievable is a gift from God to you. No man can convince himself that these things are true. It’s just not possible.

It starts with a simple and honest prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ that you will follow Him wherever He leads, even if by grace He leads you to Catholicism. The claims of the Catholic Church are too incredible to ignore. Most people ignore those claims, believing that they already have the truth. I ignored them until my own religion was pulled out from under me by discovering that it wasn’t even Christian to begin with. Took quite a long time of careful study and prayer to come to where I am now. And all of that by the grace of God.

Anywho, I commit you in my heart to Our Lady of Sorrows.

Peace,
Andrew

I appreciate your firm, but compassionate approach. Please keep me in your prayers.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Yes, it blows my mind that God chose to subject himself to human beings. Note that he subjected himself to them - Mary AND Joseph. It was fitting that Jesus should be honorable in all things. Honor thy father and they mother is Commandment 5 after all. God also chose to submit himself to Pontius Pilate and be crucified when he could have summoned a legion of angels.

I think it bears saying here that I don’t have any objections to Mary being called the Mother of God in the sense that the Word of God, who became a human was fully God and so the mother of Jesus could be said to be God’s mother. However, let us remember that
God existed before he became flesh and no one birthed him until he became flesh.

And what a wonderful honor that was, that a human being should be destined to be the mother of the Messiah. Yes, God who is outside of time often consecrates human beings for wonderful works, the same way he consecrated Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 1:5 - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

I don’t see myself as having a low view of Mary. Blessed is she among all women. I just don’t see her as akin to deity. She was the portal through which the Word was made flesh, but she is not the portal to Jesus who sits at the right hand of the Father.

I do not need to go through Mary to reach Jesus.

I bow down to the one true God and Him alone.

When Jesus was transfigured, he appeared with both Abraham and Moses. Wow, they must be important that Jesus would choose them out of all the Saints.I don’t see any statues to them in the church. Elijah did not die but was taken up to heaven in a chariot. Imagine that! What made him worthy of that? So then why should one passage of the Queen of Heaven in Revelation have a big role in creating Mary into something she was not. I don’t think anyone can provide proof that any of the twelve apostles ascribed this great honor to Mary.

When I was a protestant, in a million years I never would’ve thought I would ever say something like that).

Peace,
Andrew

Conversion indeed is a process. It’s a conversion of the mind and soul. Maybe one day I will get there and maybe I won’t. I do appreciate your comments though.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and meditations!

As for Moses and Abraham - I think you really have a calling to become an Eastern Catholic!! We have icons of many Old Testament figures, including Moses (who is also on the icon of Mary the “Unburnt Bush”) and of Abraham as well!

Mary is among the many Saints - she is the Saint of Saints, of course because of her role in Salvation History.

John Calvin and Martin Luther both affirmed Mary as the Mother of God because she gave birth to a Divine Person. We call our fathers and mothers such even though God created our immortal souls - they are not parents of “our bodies” only, but of us completely.

The Prophet Elias of Mt Carmel likewise has a very high place in the Eastern Calendar.

Alex

 

[ronin67]

I completely agree with this.

The strange thing is that the Priest had about three opportunities to clarify but I felt he kept on saying “Yes the only way through Jesus is through Mary” almost to make a point. Then he would add, but that doesn’t mean you can’t go directly to Jesus.

 The bottom line, even Mary herself said she was a SERVANT to God.  I understand the love and reverence towards the most righteous woman who every walked the face of the earth, but I just can't take it any further then that.  I just can't explain it.  Of course I love Mary, but I just can't go to that extreme that some Catholics do.  My staple of truth are the scriptures.  I can hear it already, "the church has oral history too that weighs just as important too", some Catholics will say.  Yes, I understand what Mary said saying she would be remembered as the most blessed of all woman, but would she really approve of the excess that some Catholics pay to her, especially when she viewed herself as a devoted humble SERVANT of God?  "thou shall not have any graven images before me".  A little extreme to me.  I have a friend who was a missionary who traveled to many countries in central America, where she said that they would make sacrifices to Mary.  Paganism?  Not a big fan of all the statues in the Catholic Churches either.  I understand the history of the need for visual aids, when most of the people were illiterate, but now most can pick up a Holy Bible and read.  What I am a big supporter of is Catholics reading the Holy Bible more.  Haven't seen allot of that going on with Catholics.  How can you put on the full armor of God, when you don't know what the Holy Bible says you need to know and do to protect yourself against the devices of the devil?  This part, from my witness, the Catholic church is failing in.  Again, from my experience with Catholics where I live.  However, I did meet one gentleman who did rather impress me with his Biblical knowledge as a Catholic (Great guy).  Still struggle with, "Every human being has a sin nature, but Mary didn't"???  If she was sinless, what would the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ be for if Mary was sinless?  She could have took care of it.  However, I see the other part too.  God can not be in the presence of sin, so how then could the Holy Spirit pair Christ who was the sinless God in the flesh, with a woman who had sin nature?  It would seem, that Paul's quote in the book of Romans would then be false.  So then how can Catholic oral tradition and other written Catholic doctrine be opposed to the Holy Bible (which was compiled and put together by the Catholic church also)?  I don't get it.  The oral traditions/other accepted dogma of the Catholic church have to support scripture, not oppose it.  Right????

Questions I have yet to get a Straight answer on.

May God bless!

Ed

 

[ronin67]

I am not sure if this answers your question, but the Church does not teach that veneration of Mary is a requirement for salvation or that Catholics must pray to Mary. The Church also does not teach that we can only approach God through the intercession of Mary. On the contrary, the Church teaches that “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power.” It might be helpful to take a look at the section of the Catechism that discusses Mary. It is available here:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM

Roger, got it. Mary, the most righteous woman to ever walk the face of he earth, but no where in the Salvation process. I do show the respect for Mary and her role, but thru the blood of Christ I can only receive salvation by the Grace of God my Holy Father. Correct?

May God Bless!

Ed

 

[TrueLight]

The bottom line, even Mary herself said she was a SERVANT to God. I understand the love and reverence towards the most righteous woman who every walked the face of the earth, but I just can’t take it any further then that. I just can’t explain it. Of course I love Mary, but I just can’t go to that extreme that some Catholics do. My staple of truth are the scriptures. I can hear it already, “the church has oral history too that weighs just as important too”, some Catholics will say. Yes, I understand what Mary said saying she would be remembered as the most blessed of all woman, but would she really approve of the excess that some Catholics pay to her, especially when she viewed herself as a devoted humble SERVANT of God? “thou shall not have any graven images before me”. A little extreme to me. I have a friend who was a missionary who traveled to many countries in central America, where she said that they would make sacrifices to Mary. Paganism? Not a big fan of all the statues in the Catholic Churches either. I understand the history of the need for visual aids, when most of the people were illiterate, but now most can pick up a Holy Bible and read. What I am a big supporter of is Catholics reading the Holy Bible more. Haven’t seen allot of that going on with Catholics. How can you put on the full armor of God, when you don’t know what the Holy Bible says you need to know and do to protect yourself against the devices of the devil? This part, from my witness, the Catholic church is failing in. Again, from my experience with Catholics where I live. However, I did meet one gentleman who did rather impress me with his Biblical knowledge as a Catholic (Great guy). Still struggle with, “Every human being has a sin nature, but Mary didn’t”??? If she was sinless, what would the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ be for if Mary was sinless? She could have took care of it. However, I see the other part too. God can not be in the presence of sin, so how then could the Holy Spirit pair Christ who was the sinless God in the flesh, with a woman who had sin nature? It would seem, that Paul’s quote in the book of Romans would then be false. So then how can Catholic oral tradition and other written Catholic doctrine be opposed to the Holy Bible (which was compiled and put together by the Catholic church also)? I don’t get it. The oral traditions/other accepted dogma of the Catholic church have to support scripture, not oppose it. Right???

Questions I have yet to get a Straight answer on.

May God bless!

Ed

I completely understand where you are coming from. I hope some people understand where we are coming from as well and just don’t see us as not wanting to honor the Mother of our Lord. We are not creating threads as bait, and we are not trolls, as some have implied.

Some of us have a great love for the one true God, and even though we are falling in love with Catholicism and the Church, we have a deep fear of displeasing God and possibly condemning ourselves to hell by venerating a creation of God.

Incidentally, on Monday’s Catholic Answers someone asked another Mary question (quite popular topic). The Priest gave a very good answer.

Basically, he said it took the Church years to understand the doctrine of the Trinity and that the word Trinity is not found in the Bible. In time as the early fathers grappled to understand, they began to grow in understanding and began to clarify certain doctrines, such as as the Trinity.

He then said even though the Bible doesn’t speak much of Mary,over time as the fathers began to fathom the idea of God acquiring human nature through Mary, they realized that the vessel who gave the humanity to Jesus had to be pure as well.

I’m paraphrasing. but that explanation did give me something to think about.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear Ed,

You raise some very important points!

There were and are those who can take a good thing, like the veneration of Saints, and turn it into a bad thing. We can also worship God in a bad way, superstitiously. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t worship God at all because there are those who do it badly.

The Mother of Jesus is definitely a servant of the Most High. That is precisely why we emulate and venerate her. She was filled with the Holy Spirit because of her role in salvation history, in bringing us God in Jesus.

To honour and venerate saints is a way of honouring God’s Grace present in His vessels. And we are all called to be saints.

We are called to be part of the Communion of Saints via the Church of Christ.

That Mary was sinless has been affirmed from the earliest times of the Church. The feast of her Conception was first celebrated in the Eastern Church and this meant that her Conception was sanctified by the Spirit. She became a special vessel of Divine Grace because of Who she was to bear in later life. She didn’t only bear Him physically, but also spiritually - she constantly pondered all these things having to do with Jesus and salvation in her heart.

This is why the Archangel greeted her with the words “Full of Grace” - how could he have said that if Jesus had not yet been born to win us that Grace? (For me, that is the question that Evangelical Christianity cannot - because it chooses not to - answer).

Elizabeth blesses Mary ahead of her Son “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the Fruit of your womb (Jesus).” Both heaven and earth bless Mary as being God’s grace0filled vessel.

I would recommend, from an entirely Evangelical perspective, the book on Mary by John de Satge where he discusses things like the Immaculate Conception from an Evangelical perspective to demonstrate that Mary’s total holiness means that she was entirely in tune and dependent on the Grace of God - which is, as I’m sure you will agree, a pillar of Evangelical faith.

Nothing was achieved in Mary that wasn’t achieved by God Who so inebriated her with His Grace that she responded in pure faith and trust in Him.

God doesn’t force us to do anything against our will, but empowers our will to choose either for or against Him.

Mary chose FOR Him and chose to be His servant. That already shows that she was blessed and transfigured by Divine Grace, even before her Son was conceived and born of her.

Alex

 

[Dreadnought]

Yes the only way to Jesus is through Mary as it was Mary who gave us Jesus. Her part in the Incarnation and the Holy Sacrifice at Calvary cannot be stressed enough. Jesus chose to come to us from the hands of Mary and He is greatly glorified when we choose to go to Him through the hands of Mary Our Mother.

 

[Waiting]

Still struggle with, “Every human being has a sin nature, but Mary didn’t”??? If she was sinless, what would the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ be for if Mary was sinless?

For those who struggle with the idea of Mary being sinless, even free from mortal sin, there is a simle answer. Mary needed salvation just as the rest of us do. Mary was saved before sin was able to stain her soul. The rest of us were freed from original sin by Baptism after our souls were stained. This example might help clarify the idea. A bridge is out. There is no sign to warn motorists, so they plunge into the water and then are saved. In Mary’s case, she was saved before she could plunge into the water. God preserved her from the stain of original sin, but she did need salvation.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

In the Eastern Christian tradition . . . Original Sin is all about the consequences of Adam’s personal sin that we inherit from him (rather than the “stain of sin” which suggests that we inherit Adam’s personal sin of disobedience).

So, in this understanding, Mary truly was conceived and born in Original Sin, but was sanctified at her Conception so that the effects of Original Sin were mitigated in her ii.e. she felt no pain at giving birth to Christ.

The East accepts that Mary was sanctified at her Conception and throughout her life in the dynamic process of Theosis/Transfiguration in the Spirit. At the same time, it does not accept that she was outside the order of Original Sin only that the consequences were mitigated as a result of her Sanctification.

Alex

 

[TrueLight]

In the Eastern Christian tradition . . . Original Sin is all about the consequences of Adam’s personal sin that we inherit from him (rather than the “stain of sin” which suggests that we inherit Adam’s personal sin of disobedience).

So, in this understanding, Mary truly was conceived and born in Original Sin, but was sanctified at her Conception so that the effects of Original Sin were mitigated in her ii.e. she felt no pain at giving birth to Christ.

The East accepts that Mary was sanctified at her Conception and throughout her life in the dynamic process of Theosis/Transfiguration in the Spirit. At the same time, it does not accept that she was outside the order of Original Sin only that the consequences were mitigated as a result of her Sanctification.

Alex

Alex, Thanks for giving the Eastern viewpoint.

One question: Why would she feel no pain solely because of being sinless. Did not Jesus feel pain?

 

[TrueLight]

Still struggle with, “Every human being has a sin nature, but Mary didn’t”??? If she was sinless, what would the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ be for if Mary was sinless?

For those who struggle with the idea of Mary being sinless, even free from mortal sin, there is a simle answer. Mary needed salvation just as the rest of us do. Mary was saved before sin was able to stain her soul. The rest of us were freed from original sin by Baptism after our souls were stained. This example might help clarify the idea. A bridge is out. There is no sign to warn motorists, so they plunge into the water and then are saved. In Mary’s case, she was saved before she could plunge into the water. God preserved her from the stain of original sin, but she did need salvation.

Great analogy! This is very helpful.

 

[Usagi]

Alex, Thanks for giving the Eastern viewpoint.

One question: Why would she feel no pain solely because of being sinless. Did not Jesus feel pain?

I believe the reference there is specifically to the pain of childbirth, which was part of the punishment for Eve’s sin. (Though Genesis actually refers to “greatly increasing” the pain of childbirth.)

There are actually arguments on both sides as to whether Mary would have undergone birth pangs. In the most extreme version, Jesus’ birth isn’t normal at all; rather, He passes out of Mary like light through a window, without any strain or damage to her body. That comes about partly because of the “birth pangs result from original sin” argument, and partly because there was historically a heavy emphasis on Mary’s perpetual physical virginity. That is, not only did she never have intercourse, but she remained completely physically “intact,” even in the process of giving birth.

I’m not entirely sure that’s necessary. It has definitely been a common pious belief in the Church historically, but I don’t think the idea of Jesus’ birth being normal and perhaps even uncomfortable for His mother really damages anything. As you point out, even Jesus Himself, who was certainly free from all sin, was subject to suffering and even death by His own choice.

Usagi

 

[stephe1987]

Strange as it may sound, some people actually reported seeing Mary first. A former atheist lesbian was on EWTN and said she was looking for God and asked for a woman. Mary appeared to her and told her to seek her son Jesus. She later ended up becoming Catholic.

Another woman kept hearing the word “Mary.” She was trying to learn as much about Mary as possible, and ended up finding Protestant Christianity, only to learn they don’t give her much thought, don’t really know much about her, etc. Then she learned that Catholics have a great deal of respect for Mary and she went to a priest and wanted to learn about Mary, and the priest was telling her about Jesus as well. No word yet on if she’s converting or not, but she is really learning about Jesus and Mary now.

I guess for some people, the way to Jesus literally was through Mary. God clearly has a very special role for Mary. Not only does she lead people to Jesus, but there have been Marian apparitions, and visions of Mary distributing prayers to souls in purgatory so they can move up to a higher level and eventually go to their final destination, heaven.

There are also several references in the Bible that traditionally refer to Mary based on early church writings, so clearly she was part of God’s plan from the very beginning.

 

[ClamDigger]

This morning I was listening to a podcast of EWTN Open line, dated 3/16/2011. Fr. Mitch Pacwa was the host.

I heard something that disturbed me greatly and I am wondering if this is a standard Catholic teaching or his opinion.

A caller asked if the Catholic church believes that the ONLY way to Jesus is through Mary. The Fr. Pacwa replied that is true. Then he said,** “That is not to say you can’t pray directly to Jesus. However, it is through Mary that we know Jesus because Jesus came through Mary’s Flesh”.**
The caller asked him the same question in different ways and at the end he sighed and sounded upset as he said, “I hope my brother is listening to this. This is why I am not coming back to the Catholic church”.

I was deeply disturbed by the priest’s answer. Is that really the Catholic teaching? That the only way to Jesus is through Mary?

I don’t understand what your problem is with this statement. This is absolutely true. God the Father chose to reveal his Son to the world through the conduit of Mary, and he still does so. The Father chose to present the Son to the world through Mary. We honor his choice and, therefore, often approach the Son through his Mother.

Yes, Mary deserves a place of honor. But I believe I can go through Jesus directly and Jesus never, ever taught that anyone had to go through him.

Well of course you can go directly to Jesus! Jesus is our merciful and compassionate Savior! However, you can also go through the Blessed Mother to get to Jesus as happened at the Annunciation, the Visitation, and the wedding feast at Cana. Jesus and Mary love each other in a way that we can’t even fathom and the love and honor we give to the one is equally pleasing to the other.