The Ontological Argument and the Loch Ness monster

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Jim Holt points out that Dawkins:
dismisses [Anselm’s] ontological argument as ‘infantile’ and ‘dialectical prestidigitation’ without quite identifying the defect in its logic. He seems unaware that this argument, though medieval in origin, comes in sophisticated modern versions that are not at all easy to refute. Shirking the intellectual hard work, Dawkins prefers to move on… Dawkins’ failure to appreciate just how hard philosophical questions about religion can be makes reading The God Delusion an intellectually frustrating experience.’[27]
Alvin Plantinga, a contemporary defender of Anselm’s line of thought, defines God as a ‘maximally great being’ and argues that a maximally great being must exist if its existence is possible because ‘necessary existence is a great making property.’[28] (A great making property is one that is objectively good and admits of a logical maximum. The goodness of existing per se is a great making property that admits a logical maximum in necessary existence. And although - as Hume and Kant pointed out - saying that something ‘exists’ does not add to the list of its properties, to say that something ‘exists necessarily’ does add to its list of properties.) Given the additional premise that ‘the existence of a maximally great being is possible[29], it follows that a maximally great being therefore ‘exists, and exists necessarily.’[30] Contra Dawkins, the ontological argument can be expressed as a logically valid syllogism:

    • By definition, if it is possible that God exists, then God exists
    • It is possible that God exists
    • Therefore, God exists
    **Faced with the ontological argument, the atheist does have a ‘get out’ clause; but embracing this get out clause is not without its price. The ontological argument shows that ‘the person who wishes to deny that God exists must claim that God’s existence is impossible.’[31] That is, denying the existence of God is not on a par with denying the existence of the Loch Ness monster. To deny the existence of the Loch Ness monster one needn’t make the claim that its existence is logically impossible, because one can coherently claim that Nessie simply fails to exist despite being logically possible. **However, to deny the existence of God one does have to make the claim that God’s existence is logically impossible, because one cannot coherently claim that God fails to exist despite being logically possible. This seems to be a price that many non-theists are willing to pay, despite the fact that no independent argument has ever shown the concept of God to be incoherent. Nevertheless, Plantinga argued that his version of the ontological argument at least showed that belief in God was no less rational than disbelief:
    it must be conceded that not everyone who understands and reflects on its central premise – that the existence of a maximally great being is possible – will accept it. Still, it is evident, I think, that there is nothing contrary to reason or irrational in accepting this premise. What I claim for this argument, therefore, is that it establishes, not the truth of theism, but its rational acceptability.[32]
    He has subsequently contended that the modal ontological argument: ‘provides as good grounds for the existence of God as does any serious philosophical argument for any important philosophical conclusion.’[33] The ontological argument may or may not be a sound theistic proof, but it is not logically invalid.
    Discuss…
 
Been there, done it… have a t-shirt to prove it.

Two major problems with the ontological argument - which has been beaten to death.

Problem number 1: “Maximally great” is a nonsensical definition. There is no such thing as “greatness” in the abstract sense. Something is “great” in relation to something.

Problem number 2: “existence” is not a “property”. One cannot say: “this car is fast, has great fuel economy, very safe, and… oh by the way… it also exists”. Plantinga’s “necessary existence” is not a property either. The division of existence into “necessary” and “contingent” is just a word-game, and to say that “necessary” is “greater” just compounds it. Most philosophers simply do not agree with this notion.

Let’s use the car analogy here.
  1. By definition, if it is possible that a maximally great car exists, then a maximally great car exists
  2. It is possible that a maximally great car exists
  3. Therefore, a maximally great car exists
The error is in proposition 1). From the possible existence of anything it does not follow its actual existence - ever. And no appeal to “necessary existence” will make it so.

Apart from these problems, it is a “great” argument, but definitely not “maximally great”. 🙂
 
Been there, done it… have a t-shirt to prove it.

Two major problems with the ontological argument - which has been beaten to death.

Problem number 1: “Maximally great” is a nonsensical definition. There is no such thing as “greatness” in the abstract sense. Something is “great” in relation to something.

Problem number 2: “existence” is not a “property”. One cannot say: “this car is fast, has great fuel economy, very safe, and… oh by the way… it also exists”. Plantinga’s “necessary existence” is not a property either. The division of existence into “necessary” and “contingent” is just a word-game, and to say that “necessary” is “greater” just compounds it. Most philosophers simply do not agree with this notion.

Let’s use the car analogy here.
  1. By definition, if it is possible that a maximally great car exists, then a maximally great car exists
  2. It is possible that a maximally great car exists
  3. Therefore, a maximally great car exists
The error is in proposition 1). From the possible existence of anything it does not follow its actual existence - ever. And no appeal to “necessary existence” will make it so.

Apart from these problems, it is a “great” argument, but definitely not “maximally great”. 🙂
You are repeating Guanilo’s error.

It’s a good thing that you don’t do object oriented programming: existence is an implicit property of every object instantiated.
 
You are repeating Guanilo’s error.

It’s a good thing that you don’t do object oriented programming: existence is an implicit property of every object instantiated.
Wrong in several ways. I did OOP for quite a long time, actually since OOP was first introduced. Also, we are not talking about OOP here, we are talking about philosophy.

If something is instantiated, then it exists. Under no circumstances can existence be rightly called a “property”, implict or otherwise. A property is the description of something that exists, but without existence, there can be no properties. A non-existent “book” cannot be told apart from a non-existent “ball”. What would it mean to say: “I have a non-existent book on the left side of my table, and a non-existent ball on top of it?”. How could something that does not exist have any attributes?
 
You are repeating Guanilo’s error.

It’s a good thing that you don’t do object oriented programming: existence is an implicit property of every object instantiated.
That’s a thoroughly confused application. [edited] an object-oriented programmer, consider an abstract class, say in C++, with a set of pure virtual functions defined. It cannot be instantiated, yet it is a class. It’s abstract. Saying that instantiation affirms existence is nothing more than a redundancy – instantantiation is reification in computing runtimes. Which makes that nothing more than a beg to the question – is God an instance, or not?

As for Aquinas, and Plantinga, and the ontological argument – Dawkins is too kind by half. It’s an utterly vacuous argument, and Holt (or whoever) going on about the “difficulty” of this question is doing nothing more than fawning over the Emperor’s New Clothes – there’s no there there to struggle with.

[edited] familiar with objected oriented computing, consider this proposition:

(A) If a class with property *X *can exist, then one or more *instances *of that class must exist.

Can you see the gaping hole in that kind of thinking? If so, then the ontological argument is as easily dispatched, Plantinga’s “great-making” hand-waving notwithstanding. This whole line of thinking conflates abstract conceptuals with instantiated actuals, and in a plainly gratuitous way. If you want to hash out some C++ ( or pick your OOL), the flaws in this should be apparent to the code-wise.

-TS
 
Been there, done it… have a t-shirt to prove it.
Cute.
Problem number 1: “Maximally great” is a nonsensical definition. There is no such thing as “greatness” in the abstract sense. Something is “great” in relation to something.
As well you might suspect, I must disagree.🤷 “Greatness” is an adverb, meaning it’s a predicate and can certainly be used in the “abstract sense” for anything regarded as comparatively the best. See the following definition from Dictionary.com:

–adjective
  1. unusually or comparatively large in size or dimensions: A great fire destroyed nearly half the city.
  2. large in number; numerous: Great hordes of tourists descend on Europe each summer.
  3. unusual or considerable in degree, power, intensity, etc.: great pain.
  4. wonderful; first-rate; very good: We had a great time. That’s great! (Alice, you’re the greatest. - mine)
  5. being such in an extreme or notable degree: great friends; a great talker.
  6. notable; remarkable; exceptionally outstanding: a great occasion.
  7. important; highly significant or consequential: the great issues in American history.
  8. distinguished; famous: a great inventor.
  9. of noble or lofty character: great thoughts.
  10. chief or principal: the great hall; his greatest novel.
  11. of high rank, official position, or social standing: a great noble.
  12. much in use or favor: “Humor” was a great word with the old physiologists.
  13. of extraordinary powers; having unusual merit; very admirable: a great statesman.
  14. of considerable duration or length: We waited a great while for the train.
  15. Informal. a. enthusiastic about some specified activity (usually fol. by at, for, or on): He’s great on reading poetry aloud.
    b. skillful; expert (usually fol. by at or on): *He’s great at golf *
The “greatness” of God is simply that He is greater than all else. “All else” is what He is compared with. But, beyond that, He can be conceived in just that way. Thus, I can say - and fully mean, “That was the greatest dinner I have ever eaten.”
Problem number 2: “existence” is not a “property”. One cannot say: “this car is fast, has great fuel economy, very safe, and… oh by the way… it also exists”.
Actually, I can, but, that’s not his point. His point was, that “the necessity of existing is a great-making property”. For example, I can conceive of an incredible ice cream creation we can call a “Kitchen Sink”. I can conceive of it as the greatest ice cream creation I can possibly think of. Now, what would make it even greater, in fact, what would then make it the “greatest”? If it had the “necessity of existence”. (In reality, it did. For Jahn’s Ice Cream Parlor, on Miami Beach, the Kitchen Sink was its raison d’etra.) His logic, therefore, speaks to the “necessity of existence” and validates it as a “property” of the concept of greatest being.
Plantinga’s “necessary existence” is not a property either. The division of existence into “necessary” and “contingent” is just a word-game, and to say that “necessary” is “greater” just compounds it. Most philosophers simply do not agree with this notion.
Again, he is not using it in the way your are describing. He has not even brought in anything to do with “necessary” vs. “contingent”. Plantinga is saying that “existence” is needed for the concept, “the greatest than which nothing else greater can be conceived”, to achieve its adequate and proper meaning.
The error is in proposition 1). From the possible existence of anything it does not follow its actual existence - ever. And no appeal to “necessary existence” will make it so.
Again, that is not what he’s saying. He’s saying that God’s existence is not illogical. Rather, it is logical. And, if it is logical then it is just as possible as not possible.
Apart from these problems, it is a “great” argument, but definitely not “maximally great”
I think it’s pretty darn good.

What on earth am I doing sitting here at 1:07 AM!

jd
 
Problem number 1: “Maximally great” is a nonsensical definition. There is no such thing as “greatness” in the abstract sense. Something is “great” in relation to something.
I do not quite understand your objection. Why should the appropriateness of the term “maximally great” be in any way dimished if we can only fully comphrehend it if we set it in relation to something else? In fact, the human mind thrives on comparisons and relations and there will be hardly any notion you can fully grasp without the help of such means. However, if for some strange reason you find the very word “greatness” objectionable, why nor replace it with some other term like “maximal perfection” or, which I would prefer, “maximal possibilities” respective “maximal potential”. Attributes to such a term can be most easily found. Obviously a being who knows everything that is to be known has most possibilities actualized in respect to knowledge. And obviously a being who is everywhere has most possibilities actualized in respect to presence… And obviously a being who exists necessarily shows a greater actualization of conceivable potential than a being that exists just contingently.
Problem number 2: “existence” is not a “property”. One cannot say: “this car is fast, has great fuel economy, very safe, and… oh by the way… it also exists”. Plantinga’s “necessary existence” is not a property either. The division of existence into “necessary” and “contingent” is just a word-game, and to say that “necessary” is “greater” just compounds it.
Kant has convincingly argued that contingent existence is not a property but just the shere fact that an object with its attributes is placed in space and time. However, Anselm never argued for contingent existence being a property and even made so explicitly clear in his reply to Ganilo. Contingent existence means that a being also could not exist, could be conceived of not existing. Obviously, for something that also could not exist, existence cannot be a property but just means that it is placed in space and time. But if we recapture our definition here, we see we’ve said that necessary existence would be more perfect/great etc. than contingent existence because necessary existence can by definition never come to an end and a being with necessary existence cannot be conceived of not existing. Thus we clearly must say that necessary existence is a property because otherwise there would be no inherent difference between a being that could also not exist and a being that cannot not exist – which would be absurd. – The attribute “necessary existence” can only be applied to a maximally great being. It’s quite useless to postulate a being with less than maximal greatness that nevertheless exsists necessarily. Because if a being is maximally great it must be conceived to exist in every possible, conceivable world. But with a necessary being it also always must be possible to conceive of world where that being exists self-sufficiently, all alone. And now it’s been made plain that the notion of a less than maximally great being is logically contradictory since it couldn’t exist in a world all of its own(because the maximally great being would also have to exist in this very world, which, however, could not be).
 
In fact, the human mind thrives on comparisons and relations and there will be hardly any notion you can fully grasp without the help of such means. However, if for some strange reason you find the very word “greatness” objectionable, why nor replace it with some other term like “maximal perfection” or, which I would prefer, “maximal possibilities” respective “maximal potential”. Attributes to such a term can be most easily found.
Ok, let’s get into the details. Regardless of the name we use (greatness, perfection, whatever) we talk about a composite attribute, as opposed to a simple one. If one speaks of a simple attribute - for example: height - then it is meaningful to speak about the tallest mountain. The first problem with “greatness” is that it is a subjective concept. Your concept of a “great” statesman is not necessarily the same as mine, or your neighbor’s. You may choose a different set of simple attributes which comprise “greatness” for you, while I may choose a different set of them.

How can this be reconciled? It cannot. “Greatness” cannot be defined in a manner which will be acceptable to everyone.

Second problem: if one chooses the definiton of “greatness” as being “outstanding” in every respect, then some of these simple attributes will contradict each other. The same mountain cannot be the tallest and smallest, at the same time.

Third problem: Even if we would speak of “simple” attribute like “taste”, how can one compare a great tasting steak to a great tasting ice-cream? It is impossible - they are incommensurate. If we would ponder a more complicated case, which person is “greater”, a great politician, or a great athlete? They cannot be compared.

Therefore “greatness” is not an objective and meaningful term. It is at best a sloppy description that someone wishes to use to express his or her personal preference.
Kant has convincingly argued that contingent existence is not a property but just the shere fact that an object with its attributes is placed in space and time. However, Anselm never argued for contingent existence being a property and even made so explicitly clear in his reply to Ganilo. Contingent existence means that a being also could not exist, could be conceived of not existing. Obviously, for something that also could not exist, existence cannot be a property but just means that it is placed in space and time. But if we recapture our definition here, we see we’ve said that necessary existence would be more perfect/great etc. than contingent existence because necessary existence can by definition never come to an end and a being with necessary existence cannot be conceived of not existing. Thus we clearly must say that necessary existence is a property because otherwise there would be no inherent difference between a being that could also not exist and a being that cannot not exist – which would be absurd. – The attribute “necessary existence” can only be applied to a maximally great being. It’s quite useless to postulate a being with less than maximal greatness that nevertheless exsists necessarily. Because if a being is maximally great it must be conceived to exist in every possible, conceivable world. But with a necessary being it also always must be possible to conceive of world where that being exists self-sufficiently, all alone. And now it’s been made plain that the notion of a less than maximally great being is logically contradictory since it couldn’t exist in a world all of its own(because the maximally great being would also have to exist in this very world, which, however, could not be).
Emphasis mine in both cases. In the light of what I said above a “maximally great being” is a meaningless term. The rest is just icing.

Neverheless, we can contemplate the idea of “possible worlds”. The term “world” is an abstract concept, which is the philosophical equivalent of the mathematical term “set” or “collection”. A logically possible world is one, which contains no logical contradiction. That is the only restriction, the number of “entities” in a world is not defined. (I prefer the term “entity”, because “being” has other connotations (like being “alive” and being “conscious”).

Now, having two possible worlds (sets of entities) it is obvious, that they can be disjunctive. There is no logical requirement that says: “if an entity exists in one possible world, then it also must exist (logically) in any other world”. Therefore, there is no basis to argue that there will be an entity, which exists across all possible worlds.

One of the possible worlds is the empty world, the equivalent of a matematical empty set. It contains no entities, therefore it contains no logical contradictions.

If you object and say that it is not “really” a world, you are still in trouble. The number of elements in the world is undefined, it can be zero, one, two, any number of “n”. You may wish to say that a “world” must have at least one element in it (which is not stipulated in the definition above). If such a restriction is applied, you still cannot assure that the two worlds will not be disjunctive. One possible world may contain exactly one electron, whilc another one may contain exactly one positron - no common element.

Conclusion: apart from the fact that “maximally great” is an undefined and undefinable concept, the idea of possible worlds does not come to the rescue. Possible worlds do not necessarily have a “common” element.

Q.E.D.
 
My parents got video footage of the ‘loch ness monster’ it just looked like an odd wave to me, but they decided to take it to the local news paper who printed a story about a local couple who had spoted the lochness monster.

Needless to say my peers at the time (i was 12) where not very kind.

Another rationale is attributed to Melbourne philosopher Douglas Gasking (1911–1994),[22] one component of his proof of the nonexistence of God:
  1. The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
  2. The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
  3. The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
  4. The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
  5. Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
  6. Therefore, God does not exist
This reply to The Ontological Argument always makes me smile. Im actually fairly sure this is what Dawkins uses in the god delusion to refute it.
 
Another rationale is attributed to Melbourne philosopher Douglas Gasking (1911–1994),[22] one component of his proof of the nonexistence of God:
  1. The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
  2. The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
  3. The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
  4. The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
  5. Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
  6. Therefore, God does not exist
It is an excellent example to show just how subjective and fluid the concept of “greatest possible being” is. 🙂 Thanks for the contribution.

Another one would be something I came up with (though it might have been stated by others, I don’t know). One of the attributes of God - frequently stated - that God is unable to be “evil”, or unable to “lie” - because it would go against his “nature”. I consider someone who is able to be evil, or is able to lie - but chooses not to do it. Someone who is not “destined” to be good, but chooses to be good on his own volition. After all to have the freedom to act is “greater” than to be a “robot” who just plays out his own “programming”. Therefore the Christian God is not the “greatest conceivable being” - according to my concept of “greatness”.
 
Here, as I recall the argument without having it in front of me, is the syllogism for Anselm’s argument reduced to its simplest form.

*A thing of which no thing greater can be conceived to exist must exist in reality as well as in the imagination.

God in my imagination is a thing of which nothing greater can be conceived to exist.

Ergo, God must exist in reality as well as in the imagination.*

I can see why this argument might appeal to theists because theists have strong imaginations. An atheist would not be impressed. Most of them being of a scientific bent, they don’t want metaphysical arguments, preferring cold, hard facts.

The bottom line with atheists is that they don’t want to believe anything they cannot verify … skeptics to the last.
 
As for Aquinas, and Plantinga, and the ontological argument – Dawkins is too kind by half.
Oops. A clarification: Aquinas didn’t like the ontological argument either, in fact, he argues against it. Kant and numerous others erroneously attributed Aquinas as defending such an argument; it was from a lousy translation as I recall.

peace,
Michael

PS> Dawkins, while a good biologist, isn’t a philosopher; I have a hard time taking him seriously in such issues.
 
Here, as I recall the argument without having it in front of me, is the syllogism for Anselm’s argument reduced to its simplest form.

*A thing of which no thing greater can be conceived to exist must exist in reality as well as in the imagination.

God in my imagination is a thing of which nothing greater can be conceived to exist.

Ergo, God must exist in reality as well as in the imagination.*
This has been answered above. The first part of the syllogism is incorrect.
I can see why this argument might appeal to theists because theists have strong imaginations. An atheist would not be impressed. Most of them being of a scientific bent, they don’t want metaphysical arguments, preferring cold, hard facts.

The bottom line with atheists is that they don’t want to believe anything they cannot verify … skeptics to the last.
I don’t think that being a theist or an atheist has any predictive value on how “imaginative” someone is. Most science-fiction writers are atheists, and they display a high level of imagination. Orson Scott Card is a mormon, and his imagination is breathtakingly awesome. His Ender series has many theological elements especially “Speaker for the Dead”.

Metaphysical arguments can carry the day, without doubt. But they should be sound arguments, not just logical. This is the problem with the concept of “greatest conceivable being”. It is simply too vague and unsound.

Skepticism is good. Cold hard facts beat hypotheses. The more foundation a hypothesis has, the more credibility it carries.
 
Oops. A clarification: Aquinas didn’t like the ontological argument either, in fact, he argues against it. Kant and numerous others erroneously attributed Aquinas as defending such an argument; it was from a lousy translation as I recall.
Agree, although I wasn’t aware that an ontological argument had been attributed to Aquinas. My understanding from reading over the years as that he specifically eschewed the ontological argument as being only persuasive to those already enamored of the conclusion. I wanted to say I said as much upthread, but I think my comments to that effect were in the ‘Fourth Way’ thread.
peace,
Michael
PS> Dawkins, while a good biologist, isn’t a philosopher; I have a hard time taking him seriously in such issues.
Agree, to an extent. He’s a bit ham-handed. But his larger point is pretty powerful – modernity eviscerated, even obviated most of metaphysical philosophy. Mystical metaphysics just get brutalized by Descartes and those who came after. Philosophy ain’t what it used to be, and “natural philosophy” – what we call “science” now has taken over the mantle of standard-bearer in building human knowledge. Being a biologist, in other words, lends a lot more credibility to being a philosopher in the classic (knowledge-laden) sense than being a “philosopher”. That’s overly broad, but the gist is there; particularly in terms of metaphysics, a once strong and vital oak is reduced to a dessicated vine. Dawkins to philosophy: whatcha got, really?

-TS
 
Touchstone

Dawkins to philosophy: whatcha got, really?

Philosophy to Dawkins: A more holistic approach to truth than yours.
 
Spock
*
Skepticism is good. Cold hard facts beat hypotheses. The more foundation a hypothesis has, the more credibility it carries. *

But ya gotta start with hypotheses or you’ll never find the cold hard facts.

Atheism first denies the hypothesis, then refuses to look for supporting evidence.

The supporting evidence will not be found by intellect alone, though to hear atheists talk, if there is a God He would have to be found by intellect and intellect alone.
 
But ya gotta start with hypotheses or you’ll never find the cold hard facts.
No, my friend. Cold, hard facts are the objective starting point. They cannot be denied or explained away. Where the need for a hypothesis comes into the play is the explanation for those cold, hard facts, which is a whole different ballgame.
Atheism first denies the hypothesis, then refuses to look for supporting evidence.
So sorry, but no. Atheism does not deny the hypothesis a-priori, it just finds the supporting evidence insufficient. Just like with the modal ontological argument. The concept of “necessary existence” (the one that permeates all possible logical worlds) is found out to be wanting. There is no necessary existence. From the fact that a certain entity exists in one logically possible world, it does not follow that the same entity must exist in any other logically possible world. It is really quite simple.
The supporting evidence will not be found by intellect alone, though to hear atheists talk, if there is a God He would have to be found by intellect and intellect alone.
Well, of course. If God’s existence is a cold, hard fact, then to find out about this fact - intellect should suffice.

Uri Geller and other charlatans of make-believe paranormal activities shamelessly assert that you must believe a-priori that the paranormal is “real”, otherwise your presence willl “disrupt” the paranormal “energy” and make their “proof” - “poof” (sorry about the pun, but I could not resist it :)).

I think that Catholics do not need to resort to such cheap tactics. They are way above such shenannigans.
 
Mystical metaphysics just get brutalized by Descartes and those who came after. Philosophy ain’t what it used to be, and “natural philosophy” – what we call “science” now has taken over the mantle of standard-bearer in building human knowledge. Being a biologist, in other words, lends a lot more credibility to being a philosopher in the classic (knowledge-laden) sense than being a “philosopher”. That’s overly broad, but the gist is there; particularly in terms of metaphysics, a once strong and vital oak is reduced to a dessicated vine. Dawkins to philosophy: whatcha got, really?
Scientism wrapped in the “appeal to novelty” fallacy. :rolleyes:

Descartes’ philosophy didn’t “brutalize” metaphysics.
 
Touchstone

Dawkins to philosophy: whatcha got, really?

Philosophy to Dawkins: A more holistic approach to truth than yours.
But philosophers don’t accept the existence of God to be a proven fact. If such “proofs” as this ontological argument were really convincing, then philosphers wouldn’t need to argue about whether or not gods exist, and scientists as well and everyone else would know this truth, and no faith would be required to believe in God. It is so strange for me to see so many people on this forum convinced that they have proof of God’s existence. Most people (including most believers) believe that God’s existence cannot be proven or disproven.
 
Leela

It is so strange for me to see so many people on this forum convinced that they have proof of God’s existence. Most people (including most believers) believe that God’s existence cannot be proven or disproven.

I don’t think I would call it proof so much as signs pointing to the existence of God. Anselm’s argument is hardly persuasive. But other arguments of Aquinas have partial merit. They don’t prove absolutely, and say very little about what kind of God exists. For that we must go to revelation.

Unfortunately, there are some who think the proofs are sacrosanct. Even Aquinas did not think so … and said that what had been revealed to him (in his heart) at the end of his life made it seem to him that everything he had written was as flimsy as straw.

Even so, the Dumb Ox nourished himself and us with straw.
 
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