The Ontological Argument and the Loch Ness monster

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But philosophers don’t accept the existence of God to be a proven fact. If such “proofs” as this ontological argument were really convincing, then philosphers wouldn’t need to argue about whether or not gods exist, and scientists as well and everyone else would know this truth, and no faith would be required to believe in God. It is so strange for me to see so many people on this forum convinced that they have proof of God’s existence. Most people (including most believers) believe that God’s existence cannot be proven or disproven.
side note: philosophers disagree over anything and everything… even the common-sensical.

Majority belief (if you can prove it is indeed a majority instead of a hunch) doesn’t logically entail truth, of course, even though I tend to agree with your assertion. I’ve yet to see a proper refutation of Aquinian proofs for God’s existence (but of course, the topic here is the ontological so I digress).

If you absolutely 100% had knowledge of God’s existence, it wouldn’t follow that there would be no room for faith, on both definitions. Even if you knew God exists, something called the fickle human nature gets involved and makes it look like your faith (thoughts and corresponding actions) is fake. Likewise even if you had 100% knowledge of God’s existence, it wouldn’t follow that there would be no room for intellectual faith about other things relating to God… His own attributes or things that He has said/revealed, ect.
 
Spock

*No, my friend. Cold, hard facts are the objective starting point. They cannot be denied or explained away. Where the need for a hypothesis comes into the play is the explanation for those cold, hard facts, which is a whole different ballgame. *

How about this?

Democritus only theorized about atoms. Atoms were not proven with cold hard facts until modern times.

Copernicus only theorized about heliocentrism. Galileo’s telescope began the cold hard facts.

The Big Bang once was a theory only. Then Hubbel’s telescope helped to settle the matter.

🍿
 
Democritus only theorized about atoms. Atoms were not proven with cold hard facts until modern times.
Well, I have no idea what though process lead Democritus to his theory. But it certainly was some observation, whatever it was.
Copernicus only theorized about heliocentrism. Galileo’s telescope began the cold hard facts.
Same as above. The geocentric worldview and its matematics (though unnecessary complex) did explain the movements of celestial bodies. They ran into problems explaining the “retrograd” motion of the planets, and the heliocentric concept was simpler.
The Big Bang once was a theory only. Then Hubbel’s telescope helped to settle the matter.
Same as above. Observation comes first, then a theory is presented, and the verification comes afterwards.

I see no connection here to the subject of the thread. Why don’t we concentrate on that?
 
I see no connection here to the subject of the thread. Why don’t we concentrate on that?

I think it was connected to the subject of the thread. Which comes first, the hypothesis or the facts?

Anselm’s ontology is all hypothesis with no facts to support. Moreover, it consists of circular reasoning.

What else is there to say?
 
I see no connection here to the subject of the thread. Why don’t we concentrate on that?

I think it was connected to the subject of the thread. Which comes first, the hypothesis or the facts?

Anselm’s ontology is all hypothesis with no facts to support. Moreover, it consists of circular reasoning.

What else is there to say?
Aquinas thought that everything we know is based off of/starts from experience. So in that way one could say that a hypothesis is based off of experience… ie. the experience needed to obtain certain concepts to hypothesize with.

AKA - I agree with Spock.

My ramblings…
Sure, you could start with a concept and reason about external reality and possibly be correct, just be aware that you’re on shakier grounds and better be darn sure that the concepts you started with are grounded firmly in experience. I don’t think this quite ammounts to circular reasoning, however. Descartes found out this shakier ground the hard way by ignoring (perhaps unavailable?) previous philosophers of the ancient and medieval eras.

I think there are two ways to look at yourself… either you were necessitated to exist or not. Does this coincide with a determinism/ non-deterministic outlook?

And if the rest of reality did not have to exist… well, then it makes perfect sense why someone like Descartes couldn’t reason from the mind of concepts to reality; there would be no logical necessitated connection between the concept in his mind and external reality because it might or might not be there to connect with the concept.

ideas?
 
Dawkins to philosophy: whatcha got, really?

-TS
Having read *The God Delusion *(strangely, it seems many people discussing it have not), I think that if Dawkins ever did ask such a question of philosophy, he didn’t wait for an answer, probably assuming there wasn’t one. I am positive Dawkins has never read any modern discussions in the philosophy of religion. Let me be even more specific: I am positive, from reading The God Delusion, that Dawkins has never read a single book by a single contemporary philosopher of religion, except that he read a book by Alister McGrath (which was about Dawkins himself).

Is his argument “powerful”? Of course it is, and persuasive. After all, he is in the exact same position as the vast majority of people who read his book (especially young people). They also know virtually nothing about genuine religious thought; they are prepared to swallow everything he writes. Plus, let’s face it: He appeals to the rebel, the iconoclast, in all of us. Again, young people are especially susceptible to this.

He’s not a philosopher. He’s a cheerleader for atheism.
 
Michael

PS> Dawkins, while a good biologist, isn’t a philosopher; I have a hard time taking him seriously in such issues.
I bet you would also have trouble with the kid who pointed out that the emperor was naked. I mean there is no way the young child could possibly have had a doctorate in clothesology.
 
Let me be even more specific: I am positive, from reading The God Delusion, that Dawkins has never read a single book by a single contemporary philosopher of religion, except that he read a book by Alister McGrath (which was about Dawkins himself).
I think you are underestimating Dawkins. There’s a strong element of the “Courtier’s Reply” on this forum, a kind of reflex that says that those that don’t agree must simply be ignorant, or maybe just evil – denying what they really know to be true for nothing more than spite. All that kind of response does is dull your own senses, though, and makes critical thinking, especially about your own ideas, all the more difficult (The Aquinas threads here are really good examples of this… oh you just haven’t studied Aquinas, doncha know? If you really had read Aquinas, you’d be nodding…).

Dawkins’ idea is one that attacks the foundation of all theology and religious philosophy: religious faith is meme that survives and thrives because (and only insofar as) it suppresses reason. By the garbage-in-garbage-out principle, it doesn’t matter how intricate or ornate your developments are, basing them on mystical, capricious assertions (Aquinas: *The maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus. – bzzzt!)*isn’t going to help you build real knowledge.

In a profound way, then, the Courtier’s Reply is to be expected, and carries very little weight on its own. For example, I’m carrying on a discussion elsewhere with someone who is trying to convince me that “I just don’t understand homeopathic medicine”, and that if I really would take time to try and understand it (nevermind my constant requests to be corrected wherever I’m mistaken or misinformed that go unanswered), homeopathic medicine would really make good sense, and I would see the “truth” of that kind of treatment. At some point, Aquinas and Plantinga and Polkinghorne and van Til and Augustine and Ibn Rushd are pushing ideas that have no more foundation than my homeopathy-loving friend’s ideas do. The arguments that are laid on top of it may be exquisite, baroque. But the foundations just do not hold in the light of serious, skeptical reasoning.

So, the complaint that Dawkins just doesn’t really know Aquinas (or whoever) rings a bit hollow in that light. I said upthread (in Dawkins voice, to philosophy): whatcha got, really? And the answer, from Aquinas, or all those other guys, is “not much”, or “you just wait until your dead, then you’ll understand”. Wherever the foundations are mystical, they are suspect, problematic. Time and again I’ve been urged to go read even more Aquinas (and more van Til, and more Anselm, etc…), and it’s not something I regret, but only because I can say I’ve not held back from looking into it in a robust way. But for all those urgings to go read Thomist metapshysics, more, and more, and to really understand it, the more patently vacuous it becomes.
Is his argument “powerful”? Of course it is, and persuasive. After all, he is in the exact same position as the vast majority of people who read his book (especially young people). They also know virtually nothing about genuine religious thought; they are prepared to swallow everything he writes. Plus, let’s face it: He appeals to the rebel, the iconoclast, in all of us. Again, young people are especially susceptible to this.
There’s an irony here. For all your disparaging of Dawkins, this paragraph suggests you’ve not made much of an effort to hear what he’s saying at all. It’s nothing so easily brushed aside as “he’s just appealing to the rebel”. His charge is that The Emperor Has No Clothes, that the very foundation of religious thought is irrational, self-indulgent, illicit as a matter of serious truth seeking. Religion has had such cultural hegemony for so long that the Courtier’s aghast reactions to such talk made straight talk about the Emperor’s imaginary clothes very difficult.
He’s not a philosopher. He’s a cheerleader for atheism.
Science is philosophy – “science” is a recent term, it used to be referred to as “natural philosophy”. If anything, Dawkins’ fault is simply that he’s beating a dead horse, “selling past the close”. Religious philosophy won’t ever die, but it’s been beaten as philosophy (I know, just wait until I die…), and the hard truth, detectable even here, is that religous folk, Catholics included, aren’t nearly as convinced of the merits of theology or religous philosophy as apologists would like to have us think; rather, they are committed to the idea that even if religious philosophy is shaky, or even bogus, religion is a cultural imperative nonetheless.

The disparity between the practical performance of science and the caprice of theology is now so apparent, so stark, that Dawkins I think needn’t bother with the polemic he advances. It’s an interesting idea as science, Catholicism and all the other religions as “memes” that survive via the traits and propagation schemes he sketches out in *The God Delusion. *But religious philosophy hardly needs to be discredited anymore as a secular good. The real “pholosophical battle” is happening on a different field, the battle over whether religion is best to keep around even if it is just a meme, so much made-up, imaginary stuff. As an atheist now for several years, I’m continually shocked by the number of times theists will reach the end of a discussion and draw their ultimate line in the sand: Christianity is better than atheism (or Islam, or Buddhism, or…), even if it’s false.

That’s an interesting question (see D’Souza’s book, for example), and one that Dawkins would be wiser to focus on then beating the dead horse of theology.

-TS
 
Thanks for all the assertions. I kept waiting for the arguments to support them, but I suppose your reply was getting rather long, anyway.

Anyone who knows contemporary philosophy of religion knows it is one of the hottest topics in philosophy today. (Oops—there I said “Anyone who knows,” probably offending those of you who already know all the arguments but have “grown past” them.) And if you’re going to defend Dawkins against my assertion in Post 27, I’ve got a simple, even empirical, way for you to do it: Just find a reference in his books to any serious contemporary philosopher of religion.

As for Aquinas’s argument that the maximum in any genus is the cause of those entities within that genus, that actually does have a relevant meaning—oh, forget it. Good night.
 
Well, one more thing. Anyone who takes seriously Dawkins’ idea of “memes” shouldn’t really be disparaging other people’s beliefs. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks for all the assertions. I kept waiting for the arguments to support them, but I suppose your reply was getting rather long, anyway.
I’m happy to defend what I say, or amend it. “Never mind, you just don’t understand” just doesn’t seem… sporting. But that would be cause for a different thread, if it’s something to pursue.
Anyone who knows contemporary philosophy of religion knows it is one of the hottest topics in philosophy today. (Oops—there I said “Anyone who knows,” probably offending those of you who already know all the arguments but have “grown past” them.)
The very language of the Courtier’s Reply:
Courtier's Reply:
We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor’s raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all.
Anyone who knows, after all…
*(ETA: the above is from the Courtier’s Reply, not cpayne’s post – omitted the attribution in the original version of my post.)
*And if you’re going to defend Dawkins against my assertion in Post 27, I’ve got a simple, even empirical, way for you to do it: Just find a reference in his books to any serious contemporary philosopher of religion.
This is Dawkins’ claim: there are no “serious contemporary philosophers of religion”. I don’t know how to put that any more plainly than that – he’s not at all shy about that in his book. The term is a contradiction, in his view – that as soon as philosophy gets religious, it necessarily gets ‘unserious’. I think there’s a lot to commend that idea, and importantly, if it’s wrong on Dawkins’ part, then it would be easy to demonstrate. But the refutations are conspicuous in their flavor: Dawkins just doesn’t understand – he couldn’t differentiate the epistemology of Duns Scotus from that of Aquinas if his life depended on it!!! That maybe cathartic and satisfying as a response to the theist, but it’s quite stark in its non-demonstration. If religious philosophy is a serious enterprise, where are the serious results, tests, and objective achievements – not “achievements-as-the-acquisition-of-political-power”, but philosophical achievements, demonstrations that make manifest the performative nature of the knowledge claimed?

It’s crickets chirping, aside from the objections that Dawkins hasn’t sufficiently appreciated the nuances of calculating how many angels can dance on the head of pin.

The performative record of science as a “serious” philosophy, where “serious” isn’t just a self-flattering adjective, isn’t even in question. The same theologians that ponder the noetic ramifications of God’s “middle knowledge” go pay for “natural philosophy” – medical treatment – when a serious health issue comes up. Serious dollars paid toward a serious solution to a serious problem.

I’ve no problem with the idea that the questions theology and religious philosophy pose are often deep and of a very serious nature. But that’s where the serious ends, so far as I can see. Any man’s answer is as good and as “serious” as any other man’s, because there’s perfectly nothing to objectively distinguish one above the other. In the OT, we at least had something to react to, according to the story. Who’s “theology” was performative? Was the theology of the prophets of Baal enough to win the day over the Yahwist? Apparently not, according to the story. But crude as that is, it’s way more serious than “orders of Being”, which isn’t any more performative than your daily horoscope, and arguably less so. A horoscope can be “right” in a crudely approximate way, trying as it does to focus on personal truisms, at least (“you will have to make an important decision today!”).

Just from recollection (I don’t have it in front of me just now), The God Delusion discusses an array of theologians and religious thinkers. Dietrich Bonhoeffer even gets some kudos, if I remember correctly.

But, just from past discussions on other forums, here’s a link I saved which has Dawkins reviewing Richard Swinburne’s book Is there a God?

royalinstitutephilosophy.org/think/article.php?num=17

That would seem to indicate at least a passing familiarity with at least one book from one “serious contemporary philosopher of religion”, no?
As for Aquinas’s argument that the maximum in any genus is the cause of those entities within that genus, that actually does have a relevant meaning—oh, forget it. Good night.
Ah, yes, a “relevant meaning”. Those blasted critics, they are so dense. They just refuse to see those clothes, right in front of their eyes!

-TS
 
Wrong in several ways. I did OOP for quite a long time, actually since OOP was first introduced. Also, we are not talking about OOP here, we are talking about philosophy.

If something is instantiated, then it exists. Under no circumstances can existence be rightly called a “property”, implict or otherwise. A property is the description of something that exists, but without existence, there can be no properties. A non-existent “book” cannot be told apart from a non-existent “ball”. What would it mean to say: “I have a non-existent book on the left side of my table, and a non-existent ball on top of it?”. How could something that does not exist have any attributes?

Does cheese exist, if it is thought of, but not instantiated by (say) appearing on a cheese board ? I am thinking of making a cheese sandwich; I am have yet to do so, & I have not even decided what flavour of cheese to have - indeed, it is not even certain I will have a cheese sandwich; sardines are very nice too.​

 
I think you are underestimating Dawkins. There’s a strong element of the “Courtier’s Reply” on this forum, a kind of reflex that says that those that don’t agree must simply be ignorant, or maybe just evil – denying what they really know to be true for nothing more than spite. All that kind of response does is dull your own senses, though, and makes critical thinking, especially about your own ideas, all the more difficult (The Aquinas threads here are really good examples of this… oh you just haven’t studied Aquinas, doncha know? If you really had read Aquinas, you’d be nodding…).
Good point. That does happen… with people from all flavors of life. And as for people not studying Aquinas, well, it’s actually true in many cases. It’s apparent, for instance, that one didn’t go to the horse’s mouth when one thinks Aquinas promotes the ontological argument. You’d be suprised how much that happens.
Dawkins’ idea is one that attacks the foundation of all theology and religious philosophy: religious faith is meme that survives and thrives because (and only insofar as) it suppresses reason.
Wow. So really there’s no point talking about it much more; what you should be doing is preparing your armies to slaughter all people who are “religious”. It’s the logical conclusion. Save yourselves before it’s too late. …Do you notice the “Courtier’s Reply” in your own writing?

Memes are fine with me to a point… to the point where it apparently blocks out the possibility for a rational evaluation of the meme. You can call me an idiot, but I can still rationally evaluate a religious claim.

What is more interesting then the meme nature of something is precisely what seems to be ignored here, the specific content of the claim; is it true or not.
At some point, Aquinas and Plantinga and Polkinghorne and van Til and Augustine and Ibn Rushd are pushing ideas that have no more foundation than my homeopathy-loving friend’s ideas do. The arguments that are laid on top of it may be exquisite, baroque. But the foundations just do not hold in the light of serious, skeptical reasoning.
That’s fascinating. I could have sworn that Aquinas had philosophical arguments that were based off of experience. By no foundation do you mean you think the arguments are wrong? Being wrong isn’t the same as no foundation.
So, the complaint that Dawkins just doesn’t really know Aquinas (or whoever) rings a bit hollow in that light.
Right… because there is nothing to know because there is no foundation? Actually I listened to Dawkins try to explain why each of Aquinas’ 5 proofs for God is wrong in 3 minutes. I was shocked with how many mistakes he made in such a short time. If we sat down I could show him where exactly he went wrong. I have reasons, will he listen?
His charge is that The Emperor Has No Clothes, that the very foundation of religious thought is irrational, self-indulgent, illicit as a matter of serious truth seeking.
So asking the question “why do I exist” (note, not how) is a thought that is irrational, self-indulgent, and illicit as a matter of serious truth seeking? We as humans are purpose seekers. Some religions pursue philosophy as a means, other revelation, others both, and still others perhaps neither. It is such a broad a distinct set that it is laughable to apply such a stereotype to the word “religion”.
The disparity between the practical performance of science and the caprice of theology is now so apparent
Uh huh… so whose theology are you talking about? You aren’t making rash generalizations about all theology in all religions? Theology as just revelation or philosophy or both?

What about the religion of scientism, where there is no other truths than what science can discover? (which by the way can’t be supported by science)
I’m continually shocked by the number of times theists will reach the end of a discussion and draw their ultimate line in the sand: Christianity is better than atheism (or Islam, or Buddhism, or…), even if it’s false.
Whoa, that is shocking. Who would want to believe something that is false, especially knowingly? Not me.

Thanks for being a good sport.
peace,
Michael
 
**Dear Spock,
**
The first problem with “greatness” is that it is a subjective concept.
Ah! This is so awkwardly nonsensical that I will have every pleasure in replying exactly with the words I’ve already written and which you ignored in all your happy carelessness(jdaniel, anyway, has written much the same than I did and I happenend to read his post only after I had added my own – a work, therefore, I could have been spared with). Well, how did I comment on your assertion that greatness can only be ascertained by a subjective evaluation? Ahhh… right, these were the words:

“However, if for some strange reason you find the very word “greatness” objectionable, why nor replace it with some other term like “maximal perfection” or, which I would prefer, “maximal possibilities” respective “maximal potential”. Attributes to such a term can be most easily found. Obviously a being who knows everything that is to be known has most possibilities actualized in respect to knowledge. And obviously a being who is everywhere has most possibilities actualized in respect to presence… And obviously a being who exists necessarily shows a greater actualization of conceivable potential than a being that exists just contingently.”

Just replace “greatness” with “maximal possibilities actualized” or “most possibilities actualized” or just with “being with maximal potential” and you’ve arrived at the objective concept you’re so earnestly seeking for(and should have already found some ten thousand years ago given all your professed reasonableness and earnestness – could it be you were blinded by your own wishful thinking, your desire to disprove the validity of the ontological argument on every possible account? Oh, nevermind…)

It is, however, remarkable enough that in a later post you seem to have made up your mind that “most possibilties actualized”(or a similar concept) is indeed an objective concept, because you argue as follows:
One of the attributes of God - frequently stated - that God is unable to be “evil”, or unable to “lie” - because it would go against his “nature”. I consider someone who is able to be evil, or is able to lie - but chooses not to do it. Someone who is not “destined” to be good, but chooses to be good on his own volition. After all to have the freedom to act is “greater” than to be a “robot” who just plays out his own “programming”. Therefore the Christian God is not the “greatest conceivable being” - according to my concept of “greatness”.
Of course, this blacksliding to your subjective estimation of greatness makes me doubt a little whether you have not really grasped the concept after all, but I suppose this rather to be a sort of rhetorical remark with which no specific point was aimed to be carried. – However this may be, you’ve been right enough in hinting at a problem with defining God as “being with most potential” – because God could actualize more possibilities if he would also be able to act evil. This is a valid conclusion. What follows from this conclusion, how can it be dealt with?

Well, I believe we should consider that the ontological argument, while proving something about God(that is, that he, as a being with utmost possibilities/potency exists necessarily), does not prove everything about God, nor needs to do so. Once the argument is relieved from this burden it never wanted to assume itself this objection isn’t applicable anymore.
Perhaps some other proof guides us to the conclusion that not to act coherently – that is, to act as well as God as well as evil – actually bespeaks a lack of perfection and possibilies to be actualized. But the Ontological Argument simply isn’t designed to prove as much.

The second answer is perhaps more to the point. Duns Scotus, William Ockham and others differentiated between God’s absolute power and his covenantial power. Of course, Revelation, the religious experience of mankind or other sources will direct us to the acceptance of the assurance that God, whatever may be his power, has bound himself by an inclination so steady that it can hardly be called anything else than natural to refrain from every act that mankind would consider a moral evil(because of the commandments he himself has bestowed on mankind by entering into a covenant with them).
 
Leela

It is so strange for me to see so many people on this forum convinced that they have proof of God’s existence. Most people (including most believers) believe that God’s existence cannot be proven or disproven.

I don’t think I would call it proof so much as signs pointing to the existence of God. Anselm’s argument is hardly persuasive. But other arguments of Aquinas have partial merit. They don’t prove absolutely, and say very little about what kind of God exists. For that we must go to revelation.

Unfortunately, there are some who think the proofs are sacrosanct. Even Aquinas did not think so … and said that what had been revealed to him (in his heart) at the end of his life made it seem to him that everything he had written was as flimsy as straw.

Even so, the Dumb Ox nourished himself and us with straw.
Makes sense to me. I don’t find the five ways convincing though I could see that others could. My beef is just with those who see any particular one of these ways as definitive proof. It seems to me that if such a proof existed, the existence of God would be part of our rational understanding of the universe and religion would be a science.
 
Dear Touchstone: I didn’t go to the link regarding Dawkins on Swinburne; if you are right on that, I stand corrected. Dawkins has read that book on Swinburne, and my bet was he hadn’t read a single book by a living philosopher of religion.

But on your overall point–that he doesn’t have to read those books because philosophy of religion isn’t important anyway–I would argue that if someone is going to write a number of books and articles and give speeches on a topic, he should at least know what his opponents on that topic actually say. You may call that the Courtier’s Reply; I would call it intellectual honesty. If I were going to write a book on atheism, I would read books by atheists first; I wouldn’t dismiss them as unworthy and unserious. After all, I even read Dawkins, who is the atheistic equivalent of a TV evangelist.
 
After all, I even read Dawkins, who is the atheistic equivalent of a TV evangelist.
One big difference is that Dawkins never claimed that God will kill him if we don’t send him $7 million. How is Dawkins at all like a TV evangelist?
 
Hey Folks,

Back in #8 Spock said this:
Ok, let’s get into the details. Regardless of the name we use (greatness, perfection, whatever) we talk about a composite attribute, as opposed to a simple one. If one speaks of a simple attribute - for example: height - then it is meaningful to speak about the tallest mountain. The first problem with “greatness” is that it is a subjective concept. Your concept of a “great” statesman is not necessarily the same as mine, or your neighbor’s. You may choose a different set of simple attributes which comprise “greatness” for you, while I may choose a different set of them.
How can this be reconciled? It cannot. “Greatness” cannot be defined in a manner which will be acceptable to everyone.
Second problem: if one chooses the definiton of “greatness” as being “outstanding” in every respect, then some of these simple attributes will contradict each other. The same mountain cannot be the tallest and smallest, at the same time.
Third problem: Even if we would speak of “simple” attribute like “taste”, how can one compare a great tasting steak to a great tasting ice-cream? It is impossible - they are incommensurate. If we would ponder a more complicated case, which person is “greater”, a great politician, or a great athlete? They cannot be compared.
Therefore “greatness” is not an objective and meaningful term. It is at best a sloppy description that someone wishes to use to express his or her personal preference.
So Spock says that determinations of “greatness” are necessarily and always subjective. No objective and rational basis for greatness is possible in his view. But I can think of one. If we conceive of God as the Whole of All That Exists, then there is nothing outside of Him that can be compared to Him. And any fragment of Him, being a mere part, will always be less than Him (the Whole). God thusly defined is the ultimate greatest being, there being nothing that could be conceivably greater.
 
Gasking’s take on the greatest conceivable being…

1.The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
2. The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
3. The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
4. The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
5. Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
6. Therefore, God does not exist.
 
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