The Ontological Argument and the Loch Ness monster

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Just replace “greatness” with “maximal possibilities actualized” or “most possibilities actualized” or just with “being with maximal potential” and you’ve arrived at the objective concept you’re so earnestly seeking for(and should have already found some ten thousand years ago given all your professed reasonableness and earnestness – could it be you were blinded by your own wishful thinking, your desire to disprove the validity of the ontological argument on every possible account? Oh, nevermind…)
Never mind indeed. Since you insist, I will explain it again, this time in a formal fashion. It does not matter what kind of wording you happen to favor for “greatness”.

The concept of “greater” is a relationship operator. The idea of “greatest conceivable entity” assumes that for any two entities “A” and “B”, and for any relationship “R”, the proposition “A > B in relation to R” is meaningful, and it can be resolved. Clearly false, and I gave a few examples to the contrary. What is greater, a “great meal” or a “great movie” - whatever “great” means?

The “greatest” possible being would be a special entity “E” where the “E > B in relation to R” is a meaningful proposition for any “B” and any “R”. This is false. The relationship operator cannot even be defined in a meaningful fashion, much less be resolved.
Well, I believe we should consider that the ontological argument, while proving something about God(that is, that he, as a being with utmost possibilities/potency exists necessarily), does not prove everything about God, nor needs to do so. Once the argument is relieved from this burden it never wanted to assume itself this objection isn’t applicable anymore.
The ontological argument proves nothing about God.

There are two legs of the argument, one is the meaningless usage of the relationship operator, and the other one is the concept of “necessary existence”. The first part is refuted above (again).

The second part was also refuted, by pointing out that the concept of “necessary” existence (existence in all possible worlds) is incorrect. We can imagine two possible worlds which are disjunctive, which have nothing in common. “Possible world” means any consturct without a logical contradiction. Therefore it is proven that there is no “necessary” existence.

Both “legs” of the ontological argument are “lame”. It proves nothing.
 
So Spock says that determinations of “greatness” are necessarily and always subjective. No objective and rational basis for greatness is possible in his view. But I can think of one. If we conceive of God as the Whole of All That Exists, then there is nothing outside of Him that can be compared to Him. And any fragment of Him, being a mere part, will always be less than Him (the Whole). God thusly defined is the ultimate greatest being, there being nothing that could be conceivably greater.
Sorry, it does not work. It rests on the assumption that “bigger is always better”, which is clearly false. If eating one scoop of ice-cream is good, then eating 100 scoops of ice-cream is “better” and eating 10000 scoops of ice-cream is even better. Obviously it is not so.
 
One big difference is that Dawkins never claimed that God will kill him if we don’t send him $7 million. How is Dawkins at all like a TV evangelist?
As a Christian, I am embarrassed by the superficiality of most TV evangelists and the near-constant controversies surrounding them. If I were an atheist, I would feel exactly the same way about Dawkins.

At any rate, I feel like I’m sidetracking the thread. So I promise: No more Dawkins comments! (At least on this thread.)
 
Touchstone

And the answer, from Aquinas, or all those other guys, is “not much”, or “you just wait until your dead, then you’ll understand”.

Your contempt for religion is showing. Aren’t you really Richard Dawkins? We are not impressed. Go spew your atheistic filth elsewhere.
 
Your contempt for religion is showing. Aren’t you really Richard Dawkins? We are not impressed. Go spew your atheistic filth elsewhere.
It is none of my business, but I see NO contempt for “religion” per se. I do see contempt for some posters, who repeat the quoted phrases quite frequently. I have been told these “arguments” many times. And the “atheist filth” is not exactly charitable, is it? 😉
 
And you think Touchstone is charitable, I suppose. I don’t hear you scolding him.

I have said it before, and I’ll say it again: I don’t think Catholic Answers was set up as a target for atheists to dump their contempt on Christians. If you don’t see it in Touchstone’s posts, it’s because you don’t want to see it.

As for my charity … I’m telling the truth to those who need to hear it.

Touchstone needs to get his head out of those science books and get the larger picture.
 
Ah! This is so awkwardly nonsensical that I will have every pleasure in replying exactly with the words I’ve already written and which you ignored in all your happy carelessness(jdaniel, anyway, has written much the same than I did and I happenend to read his post only after I had added my own – a work, therefore, I could have been spared with).
I went back to the first page, and looked at your original post there. Directly below it I gave a detailed answer. So I did not ignore it in “all my happy carelessness”. 🙂 As to why I do not answer every post, well, I was under the impression that I am free to choose whom to talk to, and do not have to explain my reasons why I ignore some people.
 
Leela

It is so strange for me to see so many people on this forum convinced that they have proof of God’s existence. Most people (including most believers) believe that God’s existence cannot be proven or disproven.

I don’t think I would call it proof so much as signs pointing to the existence of God. Anselm’s argument is hardly persuasive. But other arguments of Aquinas have partial merit. They don’t prove absolutely, and say very little about what kind of God exists. For that we must go to revelation.

Unfortunately, there are some who think the proofs are sacrosanct. Even Aquinas did not think so … and said that what had been revealed to him (in his heart) at the end of his life made it seem to him that everything he had written was as flimsy as straw.

Even so, the Dumb Ox nourished himself and us with straw.
This seems to me to be one of the few notes of sanity on here. Arguments based on the limited portion of human intellect and ability called “logic” cannot prove or disprove God. Remember, such explanations yet rely on English, or whatever, and languages are rarely if ever true to fact in grammar or symbology. EG, any sematicist can tell you that the subject-verb-object structure we use is very misleading in terms of describing actuality. So arguing proofs or rebutals of God’s existance is like arguing about which software works better as an application, when the question is not only more properly at the level of DOS, but of electricity itself.* The argumentation on here, IMHO, is mostly self gratifying (I’m being polite) to that part of ego identifcation that takes pride in limited and alleged intellectual competence. All of the theist/atheist arguments are cases of the (far) lesser attempting to include the infinite, by whatever label you put on infinite, be it God, physics, or on-to-“logical.” **

Based on inclusivity of exposition,*** to me, the most credible proponents of a God are ancient through contemporary philosophers who pretty much, independent of time, space, culture and each other to some extent, came up with nearly identical understandings of “how things are.” This way of understanding is not anthropomorphic or personal and is not subject to argument, but is experiential. It is not claimed to be a “proof,” such being impossible, as evidenced on the thread here, considering the thread contains arguments from other times, places, and cultures, all divergent and not capable of resolving the issue, dissimilar to the proponents I mentioned.

Their way includes christianism, but not vice versa. This is said because the christainist canons exclude the proponents by labeling them “heresy” while the proponents include christianism by a simple cognative line. By dint of simplicity, I go with the proponents on the basis of fitting consitency. Indeed, from their standpoint, an exegesis of not only the Bible, but nearly any scripture and philosophy, can be traced back to a root revalation capable of individual experience. This holds especially true of identity statements in scriptures, as far as I can see, and as well forces a different, and clealy not anthropomorphic understanding (in the intellectually exegetical sense) of God.

That brings us back to Aquinas’ straw. The good Saint was speaking of the structural, not the nutritional, aspect of straw. I suspect he made his famous statement at the moment he woke up and joined the ancient and honorable society of the above mentioned proponents. If so, his skyrocketing appreciation and understanding of the Jesus teachings must have nearly blown him off the face of the planet. It is my guess, that at that moment he finally understood that God may be pointed to, but not logiced in any sense. What comes into play is a mode of knowledge and perception that is direct, experiential, and incontrovertible, even if the consequent attempt at verbalization is modified by habituation and incompleteness of cultral referent. In that realm of perception, theism and atheism, agnosticisim, scienceism, etc. all become irrelevant of consideration. They are not even in the ball park, save as, perhaps, bits of the lawn.
Code:
* You can argue about software, whthere it works for you or not, ad infinitum. But you can stick your finger in the socket and know that electicity IS. The two are not in the same catagory of experience.

**Einstein said "I know two things that are infinite: the Universe and Man's stupidity. And I am not so sure about the Universe." In fact, revalators of many stripes have decried this seemingly funda-mental human attribute. In our boundless wisdom, we seem to pay them little heed.

*** The abitlity to coherently tie together the greatest number of fields of data in the the simplest and most fitting way.
 
Sorry, it does not work. It rests on the assumption that “bigger is always better”, which is clearly false. If eating one scoop of ice-cream is good, then eating 100 scoops of ice-cream is “better” and eating 10000 scoops of ice-cream is even better. Obviously it is not so.
I’m not sure where you came up with the idea that “greater” means “bigger is always better” when “greater” is in reference to the potentiality (or lack thereof) of a being. 🤷
 
I’m not sure where you came up with the idea that “greater” means “bigger is always better” when “greater” is in reference to the potentiality (or lack thereof) of a being. 🤷
The idea was that the whole is “greater” than its parts. It all depends on how “greater” is defined. By the way, “potentiality” to what? That is yet another undefined category. Obscuring the terms is not helpful. It only makes the waters murky…

It does ot matter if you call something “greater” or “has more potential”, or “more perfect”. It is still a relational operator. And the “A > B in respect to R” sometimes can be meaningfully resolved, sometimes it cannot. Sometimes it cannot even be defined.

For the “n-th” time, what is “greater”? A “great dinner” or a “great sleep”? Who is “greater”? A “great politician” or a “great athlete”?
 
The idea was that the whole is “greater” than its parts. It all depends on how “greater” is defined. By the way, “potentiality” to what? That is yet another undefined category. Obscuring the terms is not helpful. It only makes the waters murky…

It does ot matter if you call something “greater” or “has more potential”, or “more perfect”. It is still a relational operator. And the “A > B in respect to R” sometimes can be meaningfully resolved, sometimes it cannot. Sometimes it cannot even be defined.

For the “n-th” time, what is “greater”? A “great dinner” or a “great sleep”? Who is “greater”? A “great politician” or a “great athlete”?
:confused:
Potentiality in relation to actuality.

Wow.
 
Good point. That does happen… with people from all flavors of life. And as for people not studying Aquinas, well, it’s actually true in many cases. It’s apparent, for instance, that one didn’t go to the horse’s mouth when one thinks Aquinas promotes the ontological argument. You’d be suprised how much that happens.
I see it a lot, so I know you are right. I’m too lazy to go look it up, but over at TheologyWeb, you can find “Touchstone” point this out to confused members of the discussion. Having read Aquinas on that, his disaffection for the ontological argument seems quite reasonable (only folks predisposed to its conclusion will find it appealing), but hard to square with the Five Ways, as those seem to fail on exactly the same grounds.
Wow. So really there’s no point talking about it much more; what you should be doing is preparing your armies to slaughter all people who are “religious”. It’s the logical conclusion. Save yourselves before it’s too late. …Do you notice the “Courtier’s Reply” in your own writing?
No, but I encourage you to point it out. I’m conspicuously not advocating cessation of discussion, or violence, or coercion of any kind – I’m a staunch libertarian, and am committed to defending people’s rights to believe what they will; if you can’t believe stupid stuff, and be left alone to do it (so long as it doesn’t hurt or harm other’s freedoms), you aren’t free. Rather, bit by bit, reason and rationalism inch forward, by peaceful means, and society changes slowly at the prodding of thoughts and evidence, rather than coercion or the tip of the sword.

As for embracing ornate and baroque decorations for fanciful and capricious ideas, where I offer that, hit it hard. I very much want to avoid the “Courtier” mentality, and try to go above and beyond where I can to explain, support, cite and provide detail, rather than harumph about how the other side “just isn’t trained in puffy pantaloons”… or “orders of being”, or… what would be the materialistic analog? Memetics?
Memes are fine with me to a point… to the point where it apparently blocks out the possibility for a rational evaluation of the meme. You can call me an idiot, but I can still rationally evaluate a religious claim.
I dont’ doubt that, and suppose from what you’ve said that we have very different ideas about what the meme hypothesis proposes. I don’t see any reason why you or I or others here cannot rationally evaluate a religious claim. The meme idea proposes that irrational ideas succeed and propagate by discrediting rationalist discipline. It leverages cultural and emotional inertia. But there’s nothing I’ve read in that that precludes one who is determined to approach things in a rationalist, objective way from doing so. If you have that as a goal, you’re good to go. Religion, as a meme, doesn’t need to dispense with rationalism, but rather just assert authority over it.
What is more interesting then the meme nature of something is precisely what seems to be ignored here, the specific content of the claim; is it true or not.
Which claim are you referring to? The ontological argument? A claim I’ve made?
That’s fascinating. I could have sworn that Aquinas had philosophical arguments that were based off of experience. By no foundation do you mean you think the arguments are wrong? Being wrong isn’t the same as no foundation.
Aquinas certainly did incorporate a whole lot of experience into his thinking. What he did not do, in a nutshell, is take his thinking seriously enough to apply skepticism. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, thinking like that, but just very hard to support as “right”. And that’s an important distinction. To say that Aquinas is wrong is one thing. To say that he has failed to make a serious case for what he claims is right or true is another. Aquinas relied heavily on experience, too much so, if anything. He lets gratuitously subjective bits of his experience stand as cosmic axioms, based on his experience (“The supreme perfection is the cause of all the degrees of perfection in other things.”). To say that Aquinas is wrong is to have jumped ahead way to far; he hasn’t managed to support his case in a way where “wrong” or “right” are coherent concepts.

That’s what I mean about no foundation. Experience is a crucial (name removed by moderator)ut to philosophy, and just thinking as a human. But, untempered by skeptical criticism, and objective analysis, it’s just “flavors”, to use a term someone else through out there. One might as well extol the cosmic perfection of “chocolate” over “strawberry”.
Right… because there is nothing to know because there is no foundation? Actually I listened to Dawkins try to explain why each of Aquinas’ 5 proofs for God is wrong in 3 minutes. I was shocked with how many mistakes he made in such a short time. If we sat down I could show him where exactly he went wrong. I have reasons, will he listen?
Well, that may be, but I’m one who’s taken a special interest in the Five Ways over a long period of time, and due to the demands of a long string of “Courtiers”, have invested an amount of time and energy in reading, discussing, and thinking about them, and would say you can throw whatever mistakes an ignorant critic has aside; Aquinas’ Five Ways are gratuitously subjective, irrational, and not just in small details. It’s the “pillars” – his foundation – which he bungles the worst.

That’s not a claim that you don’t understand, and I’m willing to defend that at length. I’ve had many good, long, hard discussions on this with Catholics and other theists, and the more rigorous and serious the discussion gets, the more trouble Aquinas runs into. His problems are foundational, and thus its very hard to rescue what edifices might be built on top.

-TS
 
So asking the question “why do I exist” (note, not how) is a thought that is irrational, self-indulgent, and illicit as a matter of serious truth seeking?
No, it’s a question that, on its own, is just incoherent, and presumptuous. It’s dependent on a whole lot of other answers before it’s a serious question. Do I exist? That’s a good beginning, I guess – as basic as you can get. But from there, the going gets really difficult, and demands discipline. Asking “why” opens a HUGE can of worms, and is wholly prejudicial if it’s asked just as you have. There’s no logically necessary why. There may be a why (and I have to skip an interesting digression into the semantic of the word “why” for space reasons), but it’s a foundational error to presume that anything we might accept as a reason exists, a priori. Or that if a reason did exist, it would be intelligible to us. A disciplined epistemology does not advance to “why do I exist” as a matter of serious inquiry like that. It’s a compelling human question to muse about in a whimsical way, but as a serious point of reasoning, it’s problematic.

Just so we’re clear, I’m not suggesting you are demanding we go from “do I exist” to “Yes, I think so, now why do I exist?” without turning that into meaningful question first. But “why” is at the very opposite, ultimate end of the philosophical chain, and as I said, may very well not be a proper question at all. Investigating that, the results may come back as “we don’t have a basis for looking for a why, other than in a straightforward, biological, lawful way”. One can complain at how satisfying that might be, but here is where the serious thinkers are separated from the self-indulgent ones.

(And of course, it could be that there is a “why”, and the question “why do I exist” has a meaningful, transcendant answer…)
We as humans are purpose seekers. Some religions pursue philosophy as a means, other revelation, others both, and still others perhaps neither. It is such a broad a distinct set that it is laughable to apply such a stereotype to the word “religion”.
We are wired for “intentionality”. It’s part of our physiology, and it has served us well, overall. But that fact is an important one to factor into the analysis – it’s a potential source of bias and subjectivity that can substantially distort our judgment and reasoning about what is true, what is actual.
Uh huh… so whose theology are you talking about? You aren’t making rash generalizations about all theology in all religions? Theology as just revelation or philosophy or both?
Revelation is wholly problematic, right there. But mysticism in general is what I was getting at. I very much understand the urge toward mysticism (I was a devout Christian for decades myself), but an urge is not a cosmic truth, which seems so obvious put that way, in our current point in time, that it comes off as a silly point to make. But that has been, and still is, to a significant degree, a source of confusion. See the “Practical Reasoning” thread, just created – the hope for “greatest good” as warrant for reasonable belief! Case in point.
What about the religion of scientism, where there is no other truths than what science can discover? (which by the way can’t be supported by science)
I think you’vr answered your own question. To one who propounds that idea, a good dose of skepticism should break that claim into little pieces – that’s just as gratuitous and unserious as Aquinas. As an a priori restriction, it’s wholly unjustifiable, capricious.
Whoa, that is shocking. Who would want to believe something that is false, especially knowingly? Not me.
I think this is the trend of Christianity for the future: it’s true because it’s better for man and human culture, even if it’s made up. I’m not pinning that on you, but there’s very strong undertones of this from ascendant apologists right now – Dinesh D’Souza, for example, is an eloquent spokesman for the idea that the historicity and veridicality of Christianity’s claims are beside the point – what matters is that it holds off atheism, Islam, or [insert your favorite cultural bogeyman here].

It’s a very cynical take on Christianity (which is why I wouldn’t presume to assign that to you), but it’s much harder to refute than traditional Christian apologetics. Christianity is true in some of those ways, and has been a positive influence in some important ways, even as it has been a scourge in others.
Thanks for being a good sport.
peace,
Michael
Thanks for a thoughtful set of comments.

-Touchstone
 
:confused:
Potentiality in relation to actuality.

Wow.
That means nothing. If neither “A” or “B” are actual, then they don’t exist. Do you say that “A” is greater than “B” if “A” has a greater potential than “B” to become actual? Do you attempt to compare two nonexistent entities??? Or do you say that neither “A” nor “B” has an attribute “E”, but “A” has a grater potential to acquire that attribute than “B”??? What on Earth does that mean??? Wow, indeed!!!

By the way, you still neglected to answer my simple questions about comparing two actual examples. Why don’t you humor me?
 
Touchstone

I’ve had many good, long, hard discussions on this with Catholics and other theists, and the more rigorous and serious the discussion gets, the more trouble Aquinas runs into. His problems are foundational, and thus its very hard to rescue what edifices might be built on top.

I wonder why you think this, unless you are debating poorly trained apologists.

Antony Flew, well know former atheist who wrote the highly influential paper “Theology and Falsification” in 1950, and later the book The Presumption of Atheism, has in recent years abidicated all his atheistic convictions, though he is not a Christian … not yet, anyway.

Among his comments in his latest book, There is a God, are the following:

“Although I was once sharply critical of the argument to design, I have since come to see that, when correctly formulated, this argument constitutes a persuasive case for the existence of God.” (p. 95)

“But since the early 1980s, I had begun to reconsider. I confessed that at that point atheists have to be embarrassed by the contemporary cosmological consensus, for it seemed that the cosmologists were providing a scientific proof of what St. Thomas Aquinas contended could not prove philosophically; namely, that the universe had a beginning.” (p. 135)

So in what way are Aquinas’ problems foundational?
 
Again:

“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’—cannot hear the music of the spheres.” Albert Einstein

“I’m not an atheist, and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the language in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations.” Albert Einstein

Both quotes from Max Jammer’s Einstein and Religion.

If anything, Einstein seems to be endorsing, or at least providing some foundation, for Aquinas’ teleological argument.

So I’ll ask again, is Aquinas lacking in foundations, or is it atheism that is built on sand?
 
Touchstone
Antony Flew, well know former atheist who wrote the highly influential paper “Theology and Falsification” in 1950, and later the book The Presumption of Atheism, has in recent years abidicated all his atheistic convictions, though he is not a Christian … not yet, anyway.

Among his comments in his latest book, There is a God, are the following:

“Although I was once sharply critical of the argument to design, I have since come to see that, when correctly formulated, this argument constitutes a persuasive case for the existence of God.” (p. 95)

“But since the early 1980s, I had begun to reconsider. I confessed that at that point atheists have to be embarrassed by the contemporary cosmological consensus, for it seemed that the cosmologists were providing a scientific proof of what St. Thomas Aquinas contended could not prove philosophically; namely, that the universe had a beginning.” (p. 135)

So in what way are Aquinas’ problems foundational?
As you know, medieval philosophy is a domain unto itself; When Aquinas uses the word ‘truth’, we have to take care to provide special processing, and resist the reflexive connotations that modernity has put in place for the term. If you go to a court of law, and they ask you if proposition X is “true”, they are asking for affirmation (or not) of the correspondence between X and the actual state of the world, as best can be objectively ascertained. “Is it true you were in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania last night?” The “truth” of that proposition ("you were in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania last night) on modern semantics obtains from the physics involved. If the physics comport, then it’s true – my physical location yesterday evening was in Philadelphia proper, or nearby suburbs that are typically considered the “Philadelphia area”, for example.

But for Aquinas, ‘truth’ obtains elsewhere. “True” for him fits with a different sense of our term – we might say “Jim is a true baseball fan”. And by that, I don’t (just) mean that Jim can be described by physical observation to do things that fans of baseball are thought to do, but rather that Jim is an authentic baseball fan.

This is a fundamental, foundational difference. And it’s not problematic just because there’s a difference; different senses of a term are something to manage, but they can be managed. Rather, this Thomist conception of ‘true’ introduces an implicit dependency on God, or perhaps more precisely, on telic authority. One cannot be a “true baseball fan” in the Thomist sense of ‘true’ without some notion of “authentic”, some means of idealizing “baseball fan”, and that implicates authority, normativity (and here readers of Aquinas should be hearing him say “and this we call ‘God’”).

For Aquinas, for whom ‘truth’ is fully transcendental, and convertible with ‘being’ (!), truth cannot be divorced from its transcendental source – God, the origin/essence of truth. Without going farther into a discussion of that (which I’m happy to if we need later), for Aquinas truth nets out to be a transcendental dependency on God. As a practical example of what I mean, consider this sentence:
*
I cannot express myself in English.*

That is problematic in a transcendental way – we must affirm that the speaker can express himself in English as a means of denying it. For Aquinas, to express ‘true’ is to affirm God as the predicate for the term itself, the very basis for ‘being’ and participation in ‘being’.

All of which to say, that’s a disastrously large beg to the question – the Big Question™. Philosophically, it’s a kind of “argumentation by definition” – true is only meaningful with God as an axiom in Thomistic philosophy. Not God in the “Nicene Creed” sense (necessarily), but God in the Thomistic sense: that which is needed to make ‘true’ meaningful, by way of participation.

That’s a fixture of Thomistic metaphysics, and because of that, it is “horizontal” problem for Aquinas. It doesn’t just differ from the modern conceptual basis for ‘true’, it adopts a concept of true that is ontologically predicated on God. Of course if you define “true” that way, and conceive your “transcendentals” in those terms, you can’t help but end up in the places Aquinas did. But this is mysticism at its core, and not rational epistemology.

Anyway, I hope that gives you a sense for what I mean by “foundational”. Thomistic metaphysics are (I think) fascinating, but ungrounded epistemically. Philosophically, the epistemic burden begins at first principles: you have an axiom? Ok, provide a warrant, through necessity or self-evidence. If you can’t, then accept that it doesn’t qualify as an axiom, and it matters not if you call it “metaphysical” rather than “physical” as starting point. In all of my reading, I keep digging and digging to see where the medieval metaphysic Aquinas adopts and extends gets grounded. I trace some things back to Aristotle, and others. But I can’t find any grounding beyond intuition, and mystical intuition at that. That’s just not a serious ground for a metaphysic. If it is, then metaphysics is just a euphemism for “that which I fancy”.

Modern materialist philosophy is predicated on metaphysics, too. But the grounding is clear, and minimalist: we have “faith” that reality is real, and reality is rational/intelligible to some extent, because we must – we cannot do otherwise than to accept that. That necessity, a physiological one, is the ground, the “bootstrapping” metaphysic for materialist philosophy (and the epistemic predicate for science, too, non-accidentally). By comparison, Thomistic metaphysics, and medieval metaphysics, tracing back to Aristotle, Plato and other ancients, appear to be ungrounded, “hung on a skyhook”.

-TS
 
Aquinas’ arguments, being limited to the limited philosophy and science of his day, have of course a foundational weakness in that sense. But his intuition, as I think you called it, was the foundation for his argument. It is the intuition that anyone can have, except those who choose to deny it.

Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, fleshed out with more detail the “foundation” Aquinas had outlined in the teleological argument.

*The argument which they [the atheists] rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of cosmogony, you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. They say, then, that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may forever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend. On the contrary, I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe in its parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and infinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance centrifugal and centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters, and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, the generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is, in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regenerator into new and other forms. We see too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in its course and order. Stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and, were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. *
 
Again:

“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’—cannot hear the music of the spheres.” Albert Einstein

“I’m not an atheist, and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the language in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations.” Albert Einstein

Both quotes from Max Jammer’s Einstein and Religion.

If anything, Einstein seems to be endorsing, or at least providing some foundation, for Aquinas’ teleological argument.

So I’ll ask again, is Aquinas lacking in foundations, or is it atheism that is built on sand?
I just posted to the length limit on this, so see that post, but here, Einstein isn’t speaking scientifically, or advancing any theory. He’s just offering his own personal opinion in theological terms. As a theologian, he’s as expert as anyone else on the planet – for their is no coherent meaning to “expert” in demonstrable terms for theology; every man’s opinion in theology is as good as another’s. As such, Einstein’s free to have his say – he was also famously offended by the idea of non-determinism as it was emerging in QED in the early-mid 20th century: God doesn’t play dice, and all that.

But this kind of citation is philosophically vacuous.
*ETA: Correction. On re-reading the above, that doesn’t convey my meaning. It would be better to say it’s epistemically vacuous. “Philosophically” admits a lot more leeway, and all sorts of musings that are epistemically inert can be provocate, interesting and fruitful as a matter of philosophy. I’ll leave the originally, but want that to read:
*
But this kind of citation is epistemically vacuous.

The only reason I can think that you would quote Einstein this way is because you suppose Einstein has some kind of authority or expertise in metaphysics, just by virtue of his expertise in physics. Doesn’t work that way. Einstein’s just as deaf, dumb and blind in terms of metaphysics as the next guy.

I very much understand Einstein’s comment about a child who “dimly suspects a mysterious order”. The human disposition toward teleology – we are telic thinkers, through and through — has served us well in many ways. But here, Einstein is clearly just appealing to intuition as the basis for his metaphysical ideas. That’s his right, but let’s acknowledge it for what it is – nothing more than human intuition. Reality does not conform itself to match our intuitions. It is what is, no matter how dim or visceral our intuions may be.

If you read much of Einstein, this distinction is one he clearly understood. Scientists, being human, also exercise their privilege to put on the theologian’s hat, and chip in their 2 cents which is as valuable as anyone else’s. If he told me chocolate ice cream was better than strawberry, I’d say that was an interesting opinion to hear from the man. But that’s all I could make of it. It would be fascinating to hear Einstein’s reaction to the state of scientific knowledge and physics today. I think he’d be the first to say “Rats, it seems God does play dice, after all”. He’d also kick himself hard for reversing himself on the cosmological constant, for sure. And I think he’d have a much different take on some of his “dim intutions” in light of what’s happened and been discovered in the years since his passing.

-TS
 
That means nothing. If neither “A” or “B” are actual, then they don’t exist. Do you say that “A” is greater than “B” if “A” has a greater potential than “B” to become actual? Do you attempt to compare two nonexistent entities??? Or do you say that neither “A” nor “B” has an attribute “E”, but “A” has a grater potential to acquire that attribute than “B”??? What on Earth does that mean??? Wow, indeed!!!

By the way, you still neglected to answer my simple questions about comparing two actual examples. Why don’t you humor me?
:ehh: I’m not going to argue your straw-man.

You don’t understand potentiality or actuality.
http://tinyurl.com/d5heq3
 
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