The opposite of Protestant Justification is not Roman Catholicism but Eastern Chrisitianity

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And in this sense, Protestant theory of Justification and Salvation can be shown to be disconnected from the greater Christian Tradition as well as early, apostolic Christianity.

I just received a book called The Spirituality Of The Christian East: A Systematic Handbook and nearly every section is contrary to common understandings of Protestant soteriology.

Any thoughts?

One of my first thoughts would be that this should strike the Protestant as important, and maybe consider the faith alone, imputed justification theology to be very novel, very Western in Christian history.
 
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Not surprising. Most of the doctrines Protestants point to as late perversions can be shown to be widely believed long before the date that they claim.
 
That’s why it is good to know about the Eastern churches.

For example, this happened about a month ago:

Progressive Christian: “Only men are priests because the patriarchal Catholic Church blah blah…”
Me: "Actually, men have been ordained priests in all ancient, apostolic traditions: including Catholicism, yes, but also Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic Christianity, Syrian Christianity, Assyrian church…

Etc.

It’s very good to know about the East, for sure.
 
If you’re interested, the most direct rebuttal of the EO Churches to Protestantism is the Creed produced at the 1672 Council of Jerusalem (directly opposing a protestant-sympathizing patriarch). It is very reminiscent of the teaching of the Council of Trent.

The Confession of Dositheus (Eastern Orthodox)

For example:
Decree 13
We believe a man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love, that is to say, through faith and works. But [the idea] that faith can fulfill the function of a hand that lays hold on the righteousness which is in Christ, and can then apply it unto us for salvation, we know to be far from all Orthodoxy. For faith so understood would be possible in all, and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false. But on the contrary, we rather believe that it is not the correlative of faith, but the faith which is in us, justifies through works, with Christ. But we regard works not as witnesses certifying our calling, but as being fruits in themselves, through which faith becomes efficacious, and as in themselves meriting, through the Divine promises {cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10} that each of the Faithful may receive what is done through his own body, whether it be good or bad.
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Absolutely amazing.

Someone really needs to write a book on showing how Eastern Christianity combines with Catholicism to express the one, ancient Faith — in the sense that Catholicism is not some random medieval corruption but rather authentic Christianity, as testified by the East as well.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a work like that. I think it could go a long way. Especially since many Protestants have a natural cultural aversion to Rome. They may be more open to hearing from the East first, and from the East, see how Catholicism and Orthodoxy both represent the apostolic faith.
 
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RealisticCatholic said:
And in this sense, Protestant theory of Justification and Salvation can be shown to be disconnected from the greater Christian Tradition as well as early, apostolic Christianity.

I just received a book called The Spirituality Of The Christian East: A Systematic Handbook and nearly every section is contrary to common understandings of Protestant soteriology.
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Can you cite some of these sections that speak to Eastern Orthodox soteriology? It is hard to offer a rebuttal without specifics.
 
Genesis315 said:
Decree 13
We believe a man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love, that is to say, through faith and works. But [the idea] that faith can fulfill the function of a hand that lays hold on the righteousness which is in Christ, and can then apply it unto us for salvation, we know to be far from all Orthodoxy. For faith so understood would be possible in all, and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false. But on the contrary, we rather believe that it is not the correlative of faith, but the faith which is in us, justifies through works, with Christ. But we regard works not as witnesses certifying our calling, but as being fruits in themselves, through which faith becomes efficacious, and as in themselves meriting, through the Divine promises {cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10} that each of the Faithful may receive what is done through his own body, whether it be good or bad.
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Reading this decree, I would say that it is fairly mixed up and is not consistent within itself. The first portion of this creed states that one is not justified through faith. Then it goes on to state that it is faith which produces the works as its fruit. The Protestant position is that espoused by Paul that we are justified freely by faith apart from works. That being said, Protestants in their own documents say that good works are necessary to the Christian life, not for reasons of justification before God, but for the sake of our neighbor. We would agree that works are the fruit produced by faith, faith being the means by which we are justified, and also the means by which works that are accounted before God as “good” are done so for Christ’s sake. So, while there are elements of the apostolic faith in this decree, the doctrine espoused here is unclear and leads one to believe they are justified by works.

For an example of Protestant belief on works and the apostolic character of this belief, see Augsburg Confession, Article 4 and 6:

“Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by his death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight. Romans 3 and 4.”

"Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things say: We are uprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.
 
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Nearly every section. I think the table of contents can be found on Amazon.

Even one chapter mentions how Augustine in the West labeled some otherwise orthodox Eastern thinkers as Pelagian. Of course, this was a misunderstanding. But it shows to illustrate how far the Eastern view is contra the Protestant one.
 
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You have to interpret the Orthodox paragraph within the larger context of its history and faith. The most basic understanding of Orthodox soteriology is the concept of theosis, or the inner transformation of the human person via God’s grace. It can even be called divinization or deification. This will sound funny to people aren’t familiar with their own lango, but the idea is that the Holy Spirit is truly at work to transform the person inside-out. Hence the sacramental life but also the ascetical life.

Very far removed from the imputed justification of Luther. It is novel for Christian East as well as Latin West.
 
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To begin with, I presume that you are Protestant. To clarify the Catholic views on faith and justification,
CCC 1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism. (emphasis added)
CCC 1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ (no emphasis added)
CCC 1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity. (some emphasis added)
CCC 2008 Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
CCC 1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits himself to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith works through charity."
CCC 1815 But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of Hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
1 Cor 13:13 So faith hope and charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity. (emphasis added).
There can be a lot of confusion about this between Catholics and Protestants. Would you be interested in a friendly debate with specific guidelines on a new thread? I would like to learn about your arguments from Protestant and not just Catholic sources.
 
RealisticCatholic said:
And in this sense, Protestant theory of Justification and Salvation can be shown to be disconnected from the greater Christian Tradition as well as early, apostolic Christianity.

I just received a book called The Spirituality Of The Christian East: A Systematic Handbook and nearly every section is contrary to common understandings of Protestant soteriology.

Any thoughts?

One of my first thoughts would be that this should strike the Protestant as important, and maybe consider the faith alone, imputed justification theology to be very novel, very Western in Christian history.
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Which “Protestants” specifically? Lutheran soteriology, for example, is not the same as Calvinist soteriology.

When considering doctrine and practice, use of the term “Protestant “ is folly.
 
EZweber said:
To begin with, I presume that you are Protestant. To clarify the Catholic views on faith and justification,
CCC 1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism. (emphasis added)
CCC 1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ (no emphasis added)
CCC 1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity. (some emphasis added)
CCC 2008 Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
CCC 1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits himself to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith works through charity."
CCC 1815 But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of Hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
1 Cor 13:13 So faith hope and charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity. (emphasis added).
There can be a lot of confusion about this between Catholics and Protestants. Would you be interested in a friendly debate with specific guidelines on a new thread? I would like to learn about your arguments from Protestant and not just Catholic sources.
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Lacking further commentary for the Catholic Church in precise interpretations, I frankly find little to disagree with here.
(1987)Justification is by grace. We access justification by faith, itself being possible only by grace.
(1992). It is by the atonement of Christ, in His passion, death and resurrection that faith is possible.

(Generally). Our good works are only possible by grace. Faith that doesn’t work through love/ charity is a dead faith.

Amen.
 
Hodos said:
That being said, Protestants in their own documents say that good works are necessary to the Christian life, not for reasons of justification before God, but for the sake of our neighbor.
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I think you’re mixing terms. Justification and merit are different to me. We have justification through Christ and we merit salvation by works in union with faith. When works are severed from that union with faith they merit nothing as concerns salvation. Please note that salvation and justification are used interchangeably in some contexts and represent different ideas in other contexts.
 
Hodos said:
The same is also taught by the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.
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Is Ambrose talking about salvation as it concerns the final judgement or is he talking about that salvation we have in our conversion? I agree with Ambrose and Protestants as concerns our first being saved. There would be no issue in that. What we do with our salvation after we receive it is where the discussion of works begin. Do we participate in baptism or not, for example.
 
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catholicray said:
We have justification through Christ and we merit salvation by works in union with faith
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CCC 2008 Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
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Actually, these two statements appear to contradict, unless your meaning is the Spirit’s works are in us.
 
I’m using a more robust meaning of the word faith I’m sorry for the confusion. To me faith is also grace given so when I say faith I mean faith in the sense of our own belief and simultaneously faith in the sense of grace given. But I think the word faith in the Christian sense carries both meanings. When I think of faith it is not the same meaning as the word belief like a child believes in Santa Clause for example. Otherwise faith is merely a choice based on human reason.
 
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When you really dig down to the nuts and bolts though what I truly mean by works is that my simple yes in response to God is the work and it merits salvation. Just as Mary’s yes was the means by which God freely gave us the grace of His only Son our Salvation. My yes merits salvation this is the root of my cooperative work. I have the freedom to say no.

Therefore I may also say we have justification through Christ and we merit salvation through our yes in union with faith.
 
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catholicray said:
I’m using a more robust meaning of the word faith I’m sorry for the confusion. To me faith is also grace given so when I say faith I mean faith in the sense of our own belief and simultaneously faith in the sense of grace given. But I think the word faith in the Christian sense carries both meanings. When I think of faith it is not the same meaning as the word belief like a child believes in Santa Clause for example. Otherwise faith is merely a choice based on human reason.
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Not sure that answers my concern, even though I agree. Faith is more than mere intellectual assent. Faith embodies hope and is expressed in love/charity.
But our capability to have faith, have hope, express love is entirely dependent on grace.
Thoughts?
 
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