The opposite of Protestant Justification is not Roman Catholicism but Eastern Chrisitianity

[Wesrock]

catholicray:

We have justification through Christ and we merit salvation by works in union with faith

CCC 2008 Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

Actually, these two statements appear to contradict, unless your meaning is the Spirit’s works are in us.

God moves us to good works, but does man freely cooperate in this such that he could refuse or is it that once the grace is sent by God man is moved? What is man’s role in responding to grace?

 

[JonNC]

When you really dig down to the nuts and bolts though what I truly mean by works is that my simple yes in response to God is the work and it merits salvation.

This is where we would disagree profoundly. It excludes the necessity of Christ’s passion, in my view, if all that is needed is our simple yes.

Just as Mary’s yes was the means by which God freely gave us the grace of His only Son our Salvation. My yes merits salvation this is the root of my cooperative work. I have the freedom to say no.

I am perplexed as to how we can claim merit for something we cannot do without grace.
One must return to Ephesians 2:

8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God. 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

 

[catholicray]

It seems you’re getting hung up on where it says “man’s merit is due to God”. I don’t find that to contradict that our works in cooperation with God merits our salvation. We still understand that if not for God all works would be in vain.

 

[Wesrock]

As Catholics see it, God’s grace is what enables us to turn towards him and do good works, such that man’s agency is still present and active in assenting to faith and good works. Man’s agency is improved, one might say. God’s grace, then, is not an irresistible push to action but about giving man the capacity to take action to the good. Man still has the agency to refuse.

 

[catholicray]

Because Christ’s passion without our yes results in rejection of His passion.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

catholicray:

We have justification through Christ and we merit salvation by works in union with faith

CCC 2008 Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

Actually, these two statements appear to contradict, unless your meaning is the Spirit’s works are in us.

God moves us to good works, but does man freely cooperate in this such that he could refuse or is it that once the grace is sent by God man is moved? What is man’s role in responding to grace?

Reject grace? Yes! Accept grace by our own means? Surely not! Receiving and respond to grace by the Spirit’s urging? Yes, and amen.

 

[JonNC]

It seems you’re getting hung up on where it says “man’s merit is due to God”. I don’t find that to contradict that our works in cooperation with God merits our salvation. We still understand that if not for God all works would be in vain.

Actually, I’m “hung up” on the claim that our works merit salvation.
But your point here is instructive. I think we agree that works are necessary, and good works impossible without grace.

 

[catholicray]

We do not reject grace by our own means either for who has given man his freedom to choose? We are beings sustained by God even in our rejection of Him.

 

[Wesrock]

catholicray:

When you really dig down to the nuts and bolts though what I truly mean by works is that my simple yes in response to God is the work and it merits salvation.

This is where we would disagree profoundly. It excludes the necessity of Christ’s passion, in my view, if all that is needed is our simple yes.

Just as Mary’s yes was the means by which God freely gave us the grace of His only Son our Salvation. My yes merits salvation this is the root of my cooperative work. I have the freedom to say no.

I am perplexed as to how we can claim merit for something we cannot do without grace.
One must return to Ephesians 2:

8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God. 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins … But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

Paul here is alluding to baptism. We were dead, and through baptism are raised to new life in Christ. It is not a comprehensive treatment of salvation, just high level. We did not receive the grace that moved us to baptism by any good work we did or because we were particularly righteous. No men should boast that they were called because of their righteousness.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

JonNC:

catholicray:

We have justification through Christ and we merit salvation by works in union with faith

CCC 2008 Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

Actually, these two statements appear to contradict, unless your meaning is the Spirit’s works are in us.

God moves us to good works, but does man freely cooperate in this such that he could refuse or is it that once the grace is sent by God man is moved? What is man’s role in responding to grace?

Reject grace? Yes! Accept grace by our own means? Surely not! Receiving and respond to grace by the Spirit’s urging? Yes, and amen.

God gives us the capacity to freely accept it under own our agency. It’s an enabling.

 

[JonNC]

Because Christ’s passion without our yes results in rejection of His passion.

Some “Protestants” use the phrase, “accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.”
I’m more inclined to say, “have you received…”.
Do you see the distinction I’m making? How does a Catholic respond to that distinction?

 

[JonNC]

We do not reject grace by our own means either for who has given man his freedom to choose? We are beings sustained by God even in our rejection of Him.

Of course it is by our own means that we reject grace. Otherwise, eternal condemnation is unjust.

 

[Wesrock]

Catholic soteirology is not monergism. Neither is Orthodoxy.

 

[catholicray]

No men should boast that they were called because of their righteousness.

Exactly and while works merit salvation the man whose works merit salvation shall still only have his boasting in Christ who provided the opportunity for his works. My works merit salvation but I am not honored by them our Lord is.

 

[catholicray]

Of course it is by our own means that we reject grace. Otherwise, eternal condemnation is unjust.

Our rejection or our no to grace is our own but we would not have the opportunity to say no if God did not exist or if God did not create us with free will. Furthermore our no would be meaningless if not for God who merits perfectly our yes.

The same is true of our yes. We are, since our creation, forevermore sustained by God in all that we are. We are not without him.

 

[TK421]

Roman Catholicism isn’t suppose to be the opposite of Protestant justification, or the opposite of anything else.

Much of the various protestant theologies and worldviews were/are orthodox. Some facets of them are not.

 

[catholicray]

“have you received…”

How does one receive what he does not accept?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

catholicray:

When you really dig down to the nuts and bolts though what I truly mean by works is that my simple yes in response to God is the work and it merits salvation.

This is where we would disagree profoundly. It excludes the necessity of Christ’s passion, in my view, if all that is needed is our simple yes.

Just as Mary’s yes was the means by which God freely gave us the grace of His only Son our Salvation. My yes merits salvation this is the root of my cooperative work. I have the freedom to say no.

I am perplexed as to how we can claim merit for something we cannot do without grace.
One must return to Ephesians 2:

8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God. 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins … But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

Paul here is alluding to baptism. We were dead, and through baptism are raised to new life in Christ. It is not a comprehensive treatment of salvation, just high level. We did not receive the grace that moved us to baptism by any good work we did or because we were particularly righteous. No men should boast that they were called because of their righteousness.

Amen… but that reliance on grace continues throughout our growth as a Christian, not just at our baptism. We depend on grace in word and sacrament.

 

[JonNC]

Our rejection or our no to grace is our own but we would not have the opportunity to say no if God did not exist or if God did not create us with free will. Furthermore our no would be meaningless if not for God who merits perfectly our yes.

Here, again, you are speaking of His grace. The fact of His existence and grace is not in question. What is in question is if anything we do earns merit.
My contention is nothing we do earns merit.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

“have you received…”

How does one receive what he does not accept?

I received my Baptism without first accepting it.