The Optimist Argument Against the Problem of Evil

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TheTrueCentrist said:
I was explaining to the other poster that there are two possibilities:Either a sinless world with free will is possible or free will necessitates sin.
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I’ve tried to keep pretty close to Aquinas in the hope of being helpful, didn’t want to insert unwanted Islamic philosophy/theology. However, with this statement I thought I may offer a personal reflection. Maybe it’d be useful?
If we say that free will necessitates sin then we’re also saying everything with free will has sinned. One example where this doesn’t hold is God. Of course this may this maybe a special case, because he is All Good or maybe He dictates what is sin and what is not by His Will. If we slightly change the original statement to free will in the created necessitates sin then I still feel there is an example where it doesn’t hold; The Blessed Virgin. From an Islamic perspective, she and all Prophets are sinless I’m not entirely sure if you guys agree with the latter, but I’m sure you do with the former. Since revelation is above reason then free will in the created cannot necessitate sin.
Could we explain this logically? If we take Aquinas’ statements I posted above then we can say that man’s acts are directed to virtue, so that a virtuous act is a good use of free will and an evil use of free will is a deprivation since it was directed to virtue but chose vice. If God can increase that which is in a man’s essence i.e. his ability to fulfil the direction of his acts to virtue then it seems entirely possible that a person could be sinless. Just some reflections, any comments?
 
FCCopleston said:
:hmmm:…that’s disturbing…
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Only in one sense. How wonderful is it that we have free will? The freedom to do the good and therefore the evil also. I believe Tonyrey was meaning it in a good way, a bit like: ‘perhaps an evil that ends in humility and repentance is better than a good that ends in arrogance and pride.’
 
I was just thinking that this discussion does also ask the question what is the purpose of the universe? From an Islamic view it is a manifestation of His attributes;* ‘I was a hidden treasure and loved to be known.’* Its a bit like a flashing neon sign saying God, God, God…What would you guys say?
 
veritas82 said:
Only in one sense. How wonderful is it that we have free will? The freedom to do the good and therefore the evil also. I believe Tonyrey was meaning it in a good way, a bit like: ‘perhaps an evil that ends in humility and repentance is better than a good that ends in arrogance and pride.’
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It is disturbing because our greatest gift is Christ; and, as St. Augustine said, our freedom will be even more perfected in heaven, wherein we will *not *be able to sin. I guess, according to tonyrey, heaven will rob us of “the greatest gift we have.”
 
veritas82 said:
I was just thinking that this discussion does also ask the question what is the purpose of the universe? From an Islamic view it is a manifestation of His attributes;* ‘I was a hidden treasure and loved to be known.’* Its a bit like a flashing neon sign saying God, God, God…What would you guys say?
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The purpose of the universe is the eternal union and fellowship between God and His creatures. This union and fellowship was perfect (i.e., “very good”) in the original creation, but was destroyed by human sin and disobedience. It is only through the Son of God made Man, Jesus Christ, that there is redemption and reparation of our broken relationship with God.
 
FCCopleston said:
…the freedom to sin is the greatest gift we have!
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Disturbing but true because the freedom to sin is also the freedom to love. If we cannot choose one we cannot choose the other. We are not capable of being unselfish we cannot love but neither can we sin! As Kant observed, “ought” implies “can”. Both love and sin imply that we are free and responsible for the way we behave - that we have the power of self-control.

This is illustrated in a fine sonnet by Shakespeare:

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken.
Love’s not Time’s fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle’s compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But** bears it out even to the edge of doom**.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.
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veritas82 said:
I’ve tried to keep pretty close to Aquinas in the hope of being helpful, didn’t want to insert unwanted Islamic philosophy/theology. However, with this statement I thought I may offer a personal reflection. Maybe it’d be useful?
If we say that free will necessitates sin then we’re also saying everything with free will has sinned. One example where this doesn’t hold is God. Of course this may this maybe a special case, because he is All Good or maybe He dictates what is sin and what is not by His Will. If we slightly change the original statement to free will in the created necessitates sin then I still feel there is an example where it doesn’t hold; The Blessed Virgin. From an Islamic perspective, she and all Prophets are sinless I’m not entirely sure if you guys agree with the latter, but I’m sure you do with the former. Since revelation is above reason then free will in the created cannot necessitate sin.
Could we explain this logically? If we take Aquinas’ statements I posted above then we can say that man’s acts are directed to virtue, so that a virtuous act is a good use of free will and an evil use of free will is a deprivation since it was directed to virtue but chose vice. If God can increase that which is in a man’s essence i.e. his ability to fulfil the direction of his acts to virtue then it seems entirely possible that a person could be sinless. Just some reflections, any comments?
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This is a good point. However, even if Adam and Eve and all of their descendants fell into sin, this would not necessitate the conclusion that free will necessitates sin, but only that the potential to sin was actualized, i.e., it was not an impossibility for Adam not to have actualized this potential. Therefore, the proposed alternatives offered contain misleading premises, seeing that they are not the only alternatives.

But I digress… “TheTrueCentrist” is, quite obviously, unwilling to acknowledge the false dilemma he is peddling.
 
FCCopleston said:
It is disturbing because our greatest gift is Christ; and, as St. Augustine said, our freedom will be even more perfected in heaven, wherein we will *not *be able to sin. I guess, according to tonyrey, heaven will rob us of “the greatest gift we have.”
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A false alarm! Freedom does not consist solely in the ability to sin. In fact sinning diminishes our freedom because we become slaves to sin! But as long as we have free will we cannot be forced to sin - or to love…
 
tonyrey said:
Disturbing but true because the freedom to sin is also the freedom to love. If we cannot choose one we cannot choose the other. We are not capable of being unselfish we cannot love but neither can we sin! As Kant observed, “ought” implies “can”. Both love and sin imply that we are free and responsible for the way we behave - that we have the power of self-control.

This is illustrated in a fine sonnet by Shakespeare:

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken.
Love’s not Time’s fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle’s compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But** bears it out even to the edge of doom**.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.
Click to expand...
Do we have the freedom to sin in heaven?
 
tonyrey said:
A false alarm! Freedom does not consist solely in the ability to sin. In fact sinning diminishes our freedom because we become slaves to sin! But as long as we have free will we cannot be forced to sin - or to love…
Click to expand...
So, then, the freedom to sin is not the greatest gift we have, and does not even need to be a part of what constitutes freedom. According to your own words, we need not have the freedom to sin in order to be free, only freedom from compulsion to sin, and freedom from compulsion to love.

This also leads to a further question which relates to some of your previous posts: how does God know that we will not choose to sin in heaven? I thought He could not foreknow free acts?

Moreover, you have still not answered how God can ever come to know a free act.

Thanks,
FCCopleston
 
FCCopleston said:
A false alarm! Freedom does not consist solely in the ability to sin. In fact sinning diminishes our freedom because we become slaves to sin! But as long as we have free will we cannot be forced to sin - or to love…
Click to expand...
You are making an artifical distinction between the freedom to sin and the freedom to love. They are one and the same power to choose - what to believe and how to act.
This also leads to a further question which relates to some of your previous posts: how does God know that we will not choose to sin in heaven? I thought He could not foreknow free acts? Moreover, you have still not answered how God can ever come to know a free act.
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I pointed out that God transcends time and space. He knows everything about us but our choices are not knowable and not predictable before we actually make them. If you disagree you must believe we are spiritual machines, i.e. just cogs in heaven! The truth is that we are made in His image, He shares His freedom with us and in that respect we are “prime movers”.
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tonyrey writes:
You are making an artifical distinction between the freedom to sin and the freedom to love. They are one and the same power to choose - what to believe and how to act.
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So then freedom does require the freedom to sin?

You continue:
I pointed out that God transcends time and space. He knows everything about us but our choices are not knowable and not predictable before we actually make them. If you disagree you must believe we are spiritual machines, i.e. just cogs in heaven! The truth is that we are made in His image, He shares His freedom with us and in that respect we are “prime movers”.
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Then how does God know that we will not choose sin in heaven, for all eternity? Since He cannot know this–according to your peculiar view–or even predict it (!!!), why should anyone believe Him when He says it? In fact, you make God a liar, seeing that He is claiming to know and/or predict (that there will be no sin in heaven, and that we will freely choose to live with Him in fellowship for eternity) what He cannot possibly know and/or predict.

As to how God can know a free act after it is performed, my question is: if acts of free will are so elusive and evasive, and God cannot know or predict them even with the knowledge of events which are bound to them, then how does God’s knowledge change after an event of free will has been performed? He already knew the event before the free act was performed. What is it about God’s knowledge that changes after the free act is committed so as to enable Him to know it?
 
tonyrey said:
My point is that in heaven we have **no reason **to do so. So why would we choose to do so?
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Yes…and a wonderful point it is…:rolleyes:

But I am not asking whether or not we have a reason to sin in heaven, I **am **asking whether or not we have the freedom to sin in heaven.

First answer my question, then I’ll answer yours.😉
 
FCCopleston said:
This is a good point. However, even if Adam and Eve and all of their descendants fell into sin, this would not necessitate the conclusion that free will necessitates sin, but only that the potential to sin was actualized, i.e., it was not an impossibility for Adam not to have actualized this potential. Therefore, the proposed alternatives offered contain misleading premises, seeing that they are not the only alternatives.

But I digress… “TheTrueCentrist” is, quite obviously, unwilling to acknowledge the false dilemma he is peddling.
Click to expand...
No. If there is no possible world with free will where no one sins, then every possible world with free will includes sin. Therefore, in order to have free will we must also have sin.

Either it is possible for the world to be sinless with free will, or it is not. If it is not possible, then sin must *always *accompany free will.

If you say it is possible for them all not to have sinned, then you are admitting that a sinless world is possible.
 
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