The orans posture during Mass

[johnmann]

My understanding is that this is actually forbidden under canon law.

Canon 907 obviously do not refer to the Our Father. We’d have a real problem if lay persons are not allowed to say the Our Father! You can’t read the last part of the sentence in isolation.

There is no explicit rule forbidding the practice but there’s debate over whether the rubric for the priest to assume the orans position implies that the laity should not.

It would help if we knew why the priest assumes that position. If it’s merely a posture of prayer, there’s no reason why the laity can’t imitate it.

 

[Spencerian]

This is one of the forum’s “hot button” topics that’s commonly discussed in endless debate. I do ask others to keep this in mind.

As others have noted, it is not the place of the celebrant to add or remove anything from the liturgy without the authorization of the bishop, and sometimes not then. Others have posted what the USCCB has noted of the matter in regards to the laity.

While I commonly see the *orans *posture with the laity done in parishes I attend, it’s better not to get a “Pharisee” mindset about this, looking down on those that do. Remember: We have a perfect Sacrifice, but not always a perfect teaching of what goes on during this moment. And sometimes we in the laity just do what others do but do not question why–this is the biggest reason why many perform this posture. They see others do it, and nothing more.

If you know that the posture seems inappropriate to do since you’re not a priest and you choose not to do so, then do not make that posture. The language from the USCCB makes the subtle note that there is no proscribed posture for the laity. This is key: it means that *others *in the laity can not force you to hold hands or hold your hands upward. You could say to that person, if you choose, “It’s not required to hold or lift our hands, but thank you for your offer.”

I choose to simply keep my hands in a prayer position throughout the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and shake hands during the Sign of Peace. Perhaps others will follow my example, but I try not to seem annoyed at those that do not.

 

[johnmann]

Ok, seriously, this amount of innovation is shocking within the context of a liturgy that has 20 centuries of tradition behind it. First the novelty of “let’s all hold hands” - with which the Holy See was not pleased and called an inappropriate “sign,” introduced out of personal initiative - and now the “let’s look like priests” posture. Seriously?

The Congregation for Divine Worship repudiated “replace the giving of the sign of peace” with a “prolonged holding of hands.” I’ve actually never seen that and I suspect it was just a poorly worded question.

Whatever happened with the traditional prayer posture? Hands together, extended (fingers not interleaved), right thumb on top of left thumb in the form of a cross, at approximately 45 degree angle from the top?

Sure, “no position is prescribed”. So that means I can stand like this during the Our Father, right?

Sure. You can also have your hands “together, extended (fingers not interleaved), right thumb on top of left thumb in the form of a cross, at approximately 45 degree angle from the top” even though that’s nowhere prescribed.

 

[johnmann]

If the USCCB or Rome comes out and clearly forbids the practice of laity mimicking the priest by using the orans posture, would you comply? What if they said it was to be discouraged…Would you comply? Would you discourage others, or would you encourage others?

Neither my bishop nor the pope have forbid or discouraged it.

 

[R_C]

Sure. You can also have your hands “together, extended (fingers not interleaved), right thumb on top of left thumb in the form of a cross, at approximately 45 degree angle from the top” even though that’s nowhere prescribed.

It’s not prescribed, but - unlike the “let’s hold hands” - I did not come up with it. It was the way in which we would hold hands in the liturgy. As an EF server, in fact, I am *directed *to hold my hands like that. I looked up the guide I was quoting and much to my shame it was not 45 but 20 degrees

When one’s hands are not in use, hold them with fingers touching, palm to palm with teh right thumb over the left thumb, at about twenty degree angle just in front of the sternum (not actually touching the chest).

As for the remark on the icon of Our Lady above: that is not a snapshot of the liturgy, but an icon of the Theotokos. In the liturgy, that posture was always reserved to the bishop and to the priest.

 

[R_C]

The Congregation for Divine Worship repudiated “replace the giving of the sign of peace” with a “prolonged holding of hands.” I’ve actually never seen that and I suspect it was just a poorly worded question.

The remarks of the Congregation were about that, but also referred to the irregularity of the holding hands per se:

it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Neither my bishop nor the pope have forbid or discouraged it.

Agreed. Which is the point of my original question. Why do you (we) NEED to have a pronouncement that something is OK or not before adopting / not adopting it?

 

[johnmann]

The remarks of the Congregation were about that, but also referred to the irregularity of the holding hands per se:

It’s not clear if it’s talking about holding hands per se or holding hands as a replacement of the sign of peace but in either case, nobody is disputing the fact that it’s not part of the rubrics.

It’s not prescribed, but - unlike the “let’s hold hands” - I did not come up with it. It was the way in which we would hold hands in the liturgy. As an EF server, in fact, I am directed to hold my hands like that.

Can lay women imitate acolytes and hold their hands in that position as well?

And I didn’t come up with the lay orans either. Someone comes up with all these postures somewhere down the line. That’s how postures come to be.

 

[R_C]

Can lay women imitate acolytes and hold their hands in that position as well?

I think accolytes are directed to hold that position because it is a traditional, reverent prayer position. Thus I’d think everyone can adopt it.

 

[JM3]

He’s not speaking on his own behalf. His knowledge is in reference to Canon Law.

You may find reading the following thread in its entirety of interest.
**Revised GIRM & Orans Posture **
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=617451&page=5

I think this is a better explanation.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5999705&postcount=74

 

[aspirant]

As for the remark on the icon of Our Lady above: that is not a snapshot of the liturgy, but an icon of the Theotokos. In the liturgy, that posture was always reserved to the bishop and to the priest.

Thank goodness we do have all those ancient photos confirming that the posture was “always reserved to the bishop and to the priest”!

Wait…

 

[aspirant]

I think accolytes are directed to hold that position because it is a traditional, reverent prayer position. Thus I’d think everyone can adopt it.

Meanwhile, you would forbid the traditional, reverent prayer gesture of the ancient churches?

 

[JM3]

One of these people is a layperson…
http://hopespace.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54fab57118833016768d5f36a970b-pi

Notice the position of the fingers on the “lay person”. Not exactly the same.

 

[centurionguard]

Agreed. Which is the point of my original question. Why do you (we) NEED to have a pronouncement that something is OK or not before adopting / not adopting it?

With respect to your case in point in reference to gestures and rubrics used exclusively by an ordained priest, what makes anyone in the laity feel they have the right to copy such gestures or rubrics for that matter.

As part of the Laity partakers in the Great Mystery of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we are also subordinate servants to Christ and the Shepherds of the Church, which means for most of us in our parishes we serve our priests and follow his spiritual direction.

No where in the Sacramentary book for the priest on the Altar during the Eucharistic Liturgy is it written that the Laity are to join the priest when he raises his hands in the prayerful Orans posture. Why should the laity be inclined to copy a gesture of prayer that a priest supplicates to God on behalf of all present in the Church?

Being a Priest he has the power to supplicate prayers to God during Mass the Laity cannot. I think a good smidgen of humility is often in order for many of us who think we have the self-righteous right to copy prayers and gestures that belong exclusively to a priest.

Fraternally Yours in Christ
Chris

 

[aspirant]

Notice the position of the fingers on the “lay person”. Not exactly the same.

Because Mary’s hands are in orans while Jesus is blessing with the ICXC gesture.

 

[Spudbynight]

Well, it’s Lent, so obviously…mauve!

Violet, not mauve.

Mauve isn’t even a real colour. As a man I only acknowledge the existence of the seven colours of the rainbow.



(I actually had to Google mauve to see what it was)

 

[Spudbynight]

A couple of thoughts: first, the link is from the USCCB, in its section on liturgy. As such, it implicitly carries some authority.

In addition, I think the fact that it “doesn’t actually answer the question” should be our clue that it does, in fact, answer the question – and that the answer is that there’s no prescribed posture for the laity.

I am not disputing the authority of the USCCB for those in the United States. My issue is that the link doesn’t actually answer the question.

While I understand what you’re trying to demonstrate, I’m not certain that I’d identify a ‘posture’ as an ‘action’. ‘Delivering a homily’, ‘inviting the faithful to pray’, ‘confecting the Eucharist’ – these are all actions; maintaining the orans position – is that really an action, as c. 907 envisions it?

Canon 907 obviously do not refer to the Our Father. We’d have a real problem if lay persons are not allowed to say the Our Father! You can’t read the last part of the sentence in isolation.

There is no explicit rule forbidding the practice but there’s debate over whether the rubric for the priest to assume the orans position implies that the laity should not.

It would help if we knew why the priest assumes that position. If it’s merely a posture of prayer, there’s no reason why the laity can’t imitate it.

Assuming the orans position is an action. Certainly in the normal usage of the English language.

If one had ones hands at one’s side and then held them up - that is performing an action. The position held isn’t the action - it is the end result of the action. As I read it that action is supposed to be performed by the priest.

There are lots of actions performed by the priest - some very small such as kissing the altar. Any of those are covered by the canon.

The difference with the Our Father is that it isn’t an action reserved for the priest.

We are of course all merely giving opinions on this.

For me it isn’t a hugely pressing matter - and not one I would like become judgemental over.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

With respect to your case in point in reference to gestures and rubrics used exclusively by an ordained priest, what makes anyone in the laity feel they have the right to copy such gestures or rubrics for that matter.

As part of the Laity partakers in the Great Mystery of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we are also subordinate servants to Christ and the Shepherds of the Church, which means for most of us in our parishes we serve our priests and follow his spiritual direction.

No where in the Sacramentary book for the priest on the Altar during the Eucharistic Liturgy is it written that the Laity are to join the priest when he raises his hands in the prayerful Orans posture. Why should the laity be inclined to copy a gesture of prayer that a priest supplicates to God on behalf of all present in the Church?

Being a Priest he has the power to supplicate prayers to God during Mass the Laity cannot. I think a good smidgen of humility is often in order for many of us who think we have the self-righteous right to copy prayers and gestures that belong exclusively to a priest.

Fraternally Yours in Christ
Chris

Precisely!

 

[R_C]

Thank goodness we do have all those ancient photos confirming that the posture was “always reserved to the bishop and to the priest”!

We have tradition. Tradition is the teaching passed in writing and by word of mouth of which St. Paul tells us to hold on to. In that tradition, we read about the symbology and significance of the Orans posture.

Then we have novelty. Such as when sometime around the second half of the XX Century people start randomly adopting the Orans posture during Holy Mass.

In some places, the Orans posture is such a common and spontaneous prayer gesture that it is not truly a departure from tradition. When however I see this posture in some other cultures, it feels more or less like a fist in the ribs, because it clearly does not belong there. It’s an old argument about what belongs into the liturgy and what doesn’t. The liturgy is diverse but consistently unique throughout. This posture does not add diversity, but division. If we had a whole Rite in which the faithful employ this gesture, or if out of whatever reason everyone in a given Mass would agree to adopt the posture during the Our Father, then it would be - to a degree - fine, since the GIRM does not specify a given posture. I am only concerned when I see arguments in which the liturgy and tradition are set aside as irrelevant, or disregarded. If it fits the liturgy, let’s see why. If it doesn’t break with tradition in some places, let’s see why. But we can’t just say “forget tradition, forget the liturgy”. We don’t work this way

 

[R_C]

Violet, not mauve

OT (You know, that was a continuation of an ongoing joke with Armor of Light I posted a picture of a man praying in a yoga posture, he asked “what color spandex are we using”, and I replied “mauve”, but we’re both being silly of course )