The Orans Posture taken to a whole new level... :(

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dumspirospero

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Ok…the topic of the laity in the pews adopting the Orans Posture has been beaten to death like a dead horse…I am not opening this thread to discuss this…to each his own…I personally do not do it or agree with it…but if it brings a Catholic closer to God…then by all means. However, I saw something today that I have never seen before…

Anywho…I attended Mass this morning at 7:00AM at a local parish instead of my traditional parish I normally attend…what I saw was mind boggling. It involved the two altar boys…I mean altar servers…because one of them was a female which is a different topic for a different time…anyways, during the Our Father, the two “altar servers” were holding hands and with their free hands they had them raised in the Orans Posture which for some reason did not settle on my stomach right. Then at the end, they held there arms up together and it looked as if one of them was a referee signaling that the other had just won a heavyweight boxing match…now I am honestly asking this question…is this ok for them to do? I know the Orans Posture by the laity, while it is not encouraged or called for in the GIRM is pretty much optional for them, due to the fact the Bishops will not put their foot down and eradicate it…however, isn’t there an assigned posture for these altar servers to follow??? Please let me know if I am over reacting…crazy…or correct in my assumption…I haven’t read the GIRM in a while, but I could almost swear that that is not proper for them to do.
 
I think it goes along with parishes that have entire groups within the congregation holding hands during the Pater Noster and those on the ends lift their arms in a half-orans. Typically, my experience is that entire rows will swing their arms up at the end.

I recall something a few years back where I had heard the Vatican was wanting to end the hand holding during the Pater Noster.

There is no orans, nor hand holding in my current parish, but when I visit my childhood parish, someone grabs your hand, almost forcibly, before you can even blink.
 
I wish that we as Catholics will end holding hands at Our Father, End raising our hands, End liturgical dancers, they have no place in the mass, End female altar servers, Get rid of kumbye ya long haired Christian rock bands during mass. All that is ridiculous.

We need to bring back the solemnity of the mass back. Lots of candles an incense! Bring back alot of Latin! We are not at mass to be entertained!

Rant over.
 
My friends Lux and Jay 29…I couldn’t agree more with what you all have said…The parish I normally attend…the one I am registered at…this kind of behavior is not a problem at all…There is no Orans, Handholding, etc…we still have the Altar Rail and communion is given to you while you kneel and they use patens…we only have one Pre-Conciliar Latin Mass per week…I am hoping for that to increase…but even the Pauline Mass is done perfectly with complete reverence and respect.
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Lux_et_veritas:
I think it goes along with parishes that have entire groups within the congregation holding hands during the Pater Noster and those on the ends lift their arms in a half-orans. Typically, my experience is that entire rows will swing their arms up at the end.

I recall something a few years back where I had heard the Vatican was wanting to end the hand holding during the Pater Noster.

There is no orans, nor hand holding in my current parish, but when I visit my childhood parish, someone grabs your hand, almost forcibly, before you can even blink.
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dumspirospero:
I haven’t read the GIRM in a while, but I could almost swear that that is not proper for them to do.
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I think you may be right. Somehow I thought there was a guide to what Altar Servers should be doing, but mark my words, unless the Vatican said, “No posture that looks like a referee declaring the winner of a boxing match” someone will think it is a loophole.
 
I went to Mass in the next town today because I was up late last night and didn’t think it too good of an idea to drive, half-asleep, to an earlier Mass at my normal parish. Very tiny parish, this one in the next town, and it had a few quirks. There was a lady, I believe she was supposed to be an EMHC, assisting at the altar, and she sat behind the altar the whole Mass.

During the Our Father, the whole congregation spilled into the aisle to hold hands…except me…I was sitting in the back corner and looked up to see everyone but me holding hands. It was a tad comical.

My normal parish has done the whole holding-hands-and-raising-them-after-the-Doxology thing for as long as I can remember.

Aside from the spilling into the aisle, the risen Christ over the altar, the blue Advent candles, the square altar, and the wall-crucifix-on-a-stick processional crucifix, I couldn’t really complain (They even did the Agnus Dei in Latin…something ya don’t see every day in the average parish around here)

-ACEGC
 
Our Bishop has okayed the orans posture, but not hand-holding…but…hand-holding in our parish is the norm regardless. It’s pretty much limited to families doing it, but the members on the end do hold their hands up in the orans posture, and then, during the doxology it’s ‘family swing time’ as they all lift their hands. A few will try to grab the hand of the person next to them but not many.

I think our family is the only who doesn’t do either - we just pray with our hands folded and heads bowed. I noticed our Deacon prays it this way too, so I guess we’re not totally alone.
 
My parish is on a slow-reversal trend when it comes to the orans and hand-holding during the Our Father. I could remember about 10 years back when we would literally spill over the main aisle to hold hands, but now that practice has gone. Also, I’ve noticed more and more people (tho not the entire congregation) beginning to keep their hands in prayer during the Our Father instead of doing the orans or holding hands. I think if you ask a major of the parishioner in the country, many would tell you that they don’t like doing these positions, yet they do it because “everyone else is doing it.”(I’ve heard this comment from my parents, my brothers, some of the other Catholics I know.)

We should end this now.
 
You guys want to know how to fix this? Volunteer to sit on your parish’s Liturgy Committee. Then start proposing the “traditional posture” agenda. If you don’t have a Liturgy Committee, run for Parish Council and do the same thing.

Find people in your parish who think the way you do on the topic of posture, abuses, and liturgy, and start working with them to correct things.

This business of hand-holding started as a grass-roots movement. Why not use the same method to get rid of it. Keep leading by example folks!

I confess, that the posture I use is also an abuse. I fold my hands in the way the rubics instruct the Deacon to, and I do it because I have been privately discerning a call to the Diaconate for more than a few years now. I’m folding my hands that way for the wrong reason, however, it has the consequence that no one can force me to hold hands with them because they are out in-front of my chest, already folded before the priest gives the instruction to begin the Lord’s Prayer. Did I start doing this for the wrong reason? Yes, and I freely admit it. However, I continue doing it because Rome hasn’t legislated a posture for the faithful for the Lord’s Prayer, and I figure that folding my hands can’t be any worse than holding hands.
 
Altar servers that YAWN! through the Mass every time he serves bother me even more than the hand flappers!
(I just want to slap that kid awake!) I wish his parents who are sitting right up front would say something to him.
As to the whole hand holding, upswinging hands thing, I just refuse to participate. I hold my arms to my sides with my hands folded before me. Noone has, as yet, attempted to pry my hands from their proper (in my opinion) position.
 
I am in RCIA right now & don’t know exactly what you are all talking about. What does “orans” mean? And will there be a time when we will learn in our class all the proper things to do?
 
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catsrus:
Altar servers that YAWN! through the Mass every time he serves bother me even more than the hand flappers!
(I just want to slap that kid awake!) I wish his parents who are sitting right up front would say something to him.
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I’m the mom of one of those. I don’t know if he does it EVERY time he serves because I usually sit where I can not see him. (The servers are fairly hidden from most of the congregation) However, one time I was seated where I could see him clearly and he yawned and yawned and yawned and NEVER covered his mouth. I wanted to scream. Of course he never once looked my direction so that I could send him the non-verbal COVER YOUR MOUTH signal. Giving him a shred of benefit of the doubt, I think his allergies were bothering him and he was yawning to avoid sneezing. I asked his brother who serves with him if he still yawns the whole time, and he assures me that he doesn’t.

I’m neutral on the hand-holding thing. When it’s just me at daily Mass, I’ll just clasp my hands in front of me. The daily Mass crowd is usually not hand-holders, and I have no reason to use the orans position. With my family or even a stranger I don’t have a problem with holding hands. Or not.
 
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MusicMan:
You guys want to know how to fix this? Volunteer to sit on your parish’s Liturgy Committee. Then start proposing the “traditional posture” agenda. If you don’t have a Liturgy Committee, run for Parish Council and do the same thing.
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Trust me, in many parishes that doesn’t work at all. The people running them are so into THEIR power and way that they will not take suggestions from anyone. They dismiss them with a wave of the hand.
I will relate the DRE story again. At my old parish, things were pretty wild. I kind of accepted it until my daughter started 1st grade catechism. At that point I volunteered as an assistant in the class. What was being taught was horrible. The next year was 1st Communion/Confession. I was told that 1st Reconcilliation was in 4th grade.
I told them, “Not for my child” and signed her up for Reconcilliation classes (but we will have nothing to teach her in 4th grade! I was told). At that time I decided to join the Education Committee. Three women and the DRE. The first couple of the meetings were fine, then I attended the first Reconcilliation meeting. There, the table full of people (with children from 10 to 14) told me that they didn’t believe that the bread was the body of Christ! No one could answer any questions asked by the DRE but me.
At the next Education meeting I told them that the bigger problem than what is going on with the kids is that the adults have no clue and perhaps we need some basic instruction about the Sacraments in the bulletin. I was told that no one reads it. Then suggested some instructions in traditions. That was dismissed as well. Finally, I was told that the DRE doesn’t understand people like me and that she was looking for everyone to have a good experience more than actual Cathechism.
I escaped not long after.
Sometimes one can only talk with his feet.
I confess, that the posture I use is also an abuse. I fold my hands in the way the rubics instruct the Deacon to, and I do it because I have been privately discerning a call to the Diaconate for more than a few years now.
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I have to ask you to expound on this. How do you fold your hands that is an abuse?
 
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MusicMan:
You guys want to know how to fix this? Volunteer to sit on your parish’s Liturgy Committee. Then start proposing the “traditional posture” agenda. If you don’t have a Liturgy Committee, run for Parish Council and do the same thing.
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This is a great idea. We all need to find ways to influence our parish in a variety of ways so we can help stimulate a hunger for our Catholic traditions and orthodox teaching. Unfortunately some of us may belong to parishes (even very large parishes) where the ‘Liturgical Committee’ is one person - appointed by the priest - and the Parish Council is made up of only a couple members - all appointed by the priest. In my situation, I’ve tried to influence more orthodoxy by getting involved in some of the lay ministries at my church. It gets very frustrating listening to others bash our Church and our Pope, but I look for opportunities when I can bring the Catechisim into our discussion, or devotion to Our Blessed Mother, etc. I haven’t been asked to leave yet and actually get asked to help, so hopefully I’m doing something right. I really have no idea, but I sure hope so.
 
The problem is monumental. But, if we believe the Church when She tells us that the faithful are entitled to an abuse-free Mass, then we must not give up in making sure we get what the Church has entitled us to.

We must continue to stand up to the people who don’t understand the Faith, don’t want to teach the Faith, and don’t really care about the Faith. Stay on the Education Committee and fight for Truth. And the rest of you! Lead by example and mobilize the True Faithful to no longer stand for these abuses!

Because, really, if we don’t do that… then all we have to show for our Faith is griping here on a posting board.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I have to ask you to expound on this. How do you fold your hands that is an abuse?
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“Imitating” gestures reserved to the clergy at Mass is an abuse. If I fold my hands in the way the rubrics instruct the Deacon to, becuase I am imitating the posture of the Deacon, then I am committing an abuse.

Fortunately, folding your hands in-and-of-itself is not an abuse, and I have grown from doing it because the Deacon is supposed to to doing it because it feels like a reverent posture that is not forbidden by the rubrics. Sadly, this is the same argument that people use to hold-hands with their neighbors during the Lord’s Prayer. :confused:
 
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MusicMan:
The problem is monumental. But, if we believe the Church when She tells us that the faithful are entitled to an abuse-free Mass, then we must not give up in making sure we get what the Church has entitled us to.

We must continue to stand up to the people who don’t understand the Faith, don’t want to teach the Faith, and don’t really care about the Faith. Stay on the Education Committee and fight for Truth. And the rest of you! Lead by example and mobilize the True Faithful to no longer stand for these abuses!

Because, really, if we don’t do that… then all we have to show for our Faith is griping here on a posting board.
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Or find a good orthodox parrish and put your money there!
 
MusicMan said:
“Imitating” gestures reserved to the clergy at Mass is an abuse. If I fold my hands in the way the rubrics instruct the Deacon to, becuase I am imitating the posture of the Deacon, then I am committing an abuse.

Fortunately, folding your hands in-and-of-itself is not an abuse, and I have grown from doing it because the Deacon is supposed to to doing it because it feels like a reverent posture that is not forbidden by the rubrics. Sadly, this is the same argument that people use to hold-hands with their neighbors during the Lord’s Prayer. :confused:
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I sorry, what are the instruction for the Deacon?
Please understand that if at any time the Vatican gave an instruction for you to fold your hands in the same way, then it is not an abuse. Unlike the Orans position which has NEVER been an instruction for the Laity. Nor has the Vatican ever given instructions for holding hands.
 
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momof3boys:
I am in RCIA right now & don’t know exactly what you are all talking about. What does “orans” mean? And will there be a time when we will learn in our class all the proper things to do?
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“Orans” means holding your arms up in the air with palms opened upward.

Re: RCIA question:
Well, that all depends.

The ONLY PROPER THINGS TO DO ARE IN THE GIRM! and other documents from a Sacred Congregation of the Magisterium. Do not use the USCCB website as a reference for anything but official documents issued by Sacred Congregations- many of the 'instructions, letters, memos, info pages" on the USCCB site - are very ambiguous opinions and not ‘official teaching’ and it would be tough for a novice to know the difference.

Ask the RCIA instructor what documents they are using to teach from and ask “what Sacred Congregation issued them?” Get copies (they should be able to give them to you) If they can’t answer, go to the pastor and let him know you want to be a ROMAN CATHOLIC and you want to read the TRUE TEACHINGS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, not an individual RCIA instructor’s personal views or even a pastor’s personal views, or even a bishop’s personal views.

Are the books you’re learning from imprimatured? are THEIRS? If not, then request the documents of the church from the instructor.

Are they using an imprimatured Catechism to teach? They should beusing it in every class - it is the official teaching of the church- are they using the APPROVED Catechism of the Catholic Church (the 1997 edition - NOT THE 1993 Edition, which was NOT APPROVED and was changed in over 100 paragraphs)

If you want any particular info, please feel free to private message me. I’ve been in CA for 25 years.

So sad that you even have to ask-
blessings,
Angel
 
Sonny: You must have been either in Zachary or over here in Denham Springs. Stick to the Cathedral or St. Agnes.😉
 
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