The Origin of Evil

[Achilles6129]

Hello,

What is the origin of evil? Did it begin to exist at some point, or did it always exist? Does evil exist as a consequence of God’s existence? Is God able to destroy evil, or does he have to let it exist?

 

[Wesrock]

Evil is not eternal in the way that God is eternal. It’s not an equal, opposing force or substance. All things are within God’s Providence, including evil.

Two of the greatest theologians in western Christendom are Saint Augustine of Hippo and Saint Thomas Aquinas. Both taught that evil is an absence, a privation of goodness in something that exists. It is not a positively existing thing in itself. The idea is based in an essentialist view of reality, not an existentialist view. As an illustration, consider the ideal mathematical, equilateral triangle. Now imagine that triangle drawn by a six year old with a crayon. The triangle drawn by the child will still be a triangle but it will be defective. It will be deprived of perfections that make it a good triangle, for a six year old cannot draw straight, and a crayon is a poor tool for making straight lines. Now consider a triangle drawn by an architect with a straight edge. This will more closely resemble the mathematical, ideal triangle, but even so, it will still be imperfect, because even the line drawn by the sharpest pen will still, if examined closely enough, not have perfectly straight edges. But it will be less deprived of what it is to be a triangle than the one drawn with a crayon.

Now, these privations in a triangle are not moral evils, but the concept is the same. Evils done to a human person are things that deprive him of some essential quality of being human. Evil choices made by a human are evil because they are deviations away from how a human being should morally choose.

Evil is not a consequence of God’s existence per se, but it is something He chose to permit in creation. In this essentialist view, you couldn’t have either change, variation, multiplicity, or choice in a reality in which evil wasn’t permitted. Evil isn’t just moral choices, but any deviation in reality away from the essence of what a thing is; it’s ideal; it’s “blueprint” of what it is.

Though I should add, God may have had other or additional reasons for permitting evil.

 

[tonyrey]

Evil is not eternal in the way that God is eternal. It’s not an equal, opposing force or substance. All things are within God’s Providence, including evil.

Two of the greatest theologians in western Christendom are Saint Augustine of Hippo and Saint Thomas Aquinas. Both taught that evil is an absence, a privation of goodness in something that exists. It is not a positively existing thing in itself. The idea is based in an essentialist view of reality, not an existentialist view. As an illustration, consider the ideal mathematical, equilateral triangle. Now imagine that triangle drawn by a six year old with a crayon. The triangle drawn by the child will still be a triangle but it will be defective. It will be deprived of perfections that make it a good triangle, for a six year old cannot draw straight, and a crayon is a poor tool for making straight lines. Now consider a triangle drawn by an architect with a straight edge. This will more closely resemble the mathematical, ideal triangle, but even so, it will still be imperfect, because even the line drawn by the sharpest pen will still, if examined closely enough, not have perfectly straight edges. But it will be less deprived of what it is to be a triangle than the one drawn with a crayon.

Now, these privations in a triangle are not moral evils, but the concept is the same. Evils done to a human person are things that deprive him of some essential quality of being human. Evil choices made by a human are evil because they are deviations away from how a human being should morally choose.

Evil is not a consequence of God’s existence per se, but it is something He chose to permit in creation. In this essentialist view, you couldn’t have either change, variation, multiplicity, or choice in a reality in which evil wasn’t permitted. Evil isn’t just moral choices, but any deviation in reality away from the essence of what a thing is; it’s ideal; it’s “blueprint” of what it is.

Though I should add, God may have had other or additional reasons for permitting evil.

An excellent exposition!

 

[seagal]

God didn’t create evil, the bible tells us that everything he created was good. However, evil is a necessary effect of free will, which is essentially the ability to decide between doing what God wants and what we want. IMO evil began to exist the moment Lucifer used his free will to decide to disobey God.

 

[OneSheep]

Evil is not eternal in the way that God is eternal. It’s not an equal, opposing force or substance. All things are within God’s Providence, including evil.

Two of the greatest theologians in western Christendom are Saint Augustine of Hippo and Saint Thomas Aquinas. Both taught that evil is an absence, a privation of goodness in something that exists. It is not a positively existing thing in itself. The idea is based in an essentialist view of reality, not an existentialist view. As an illustration, consider the ideal mathematical, equilateral triangle. Now imagine that triangle drawn by a six year old with a crayon. The triangle drawn by the child will still be a triangle but it will be defective. It will be deprived of perfections that make it a good triangle, for a six year old cannot draw straight, and a crayon is a poor tool for making straight lines. Now consider a triangle drawn by an architect with a straight edge. This will more closely resemble the mathematical, ideal triangle, but even so, it will still be imperfect, because even the line drawn by the sharpest pen will still, if examined closely enough, not have perfectly straight edges. But it will be less deprived of what it is to be a triangle than the one drawn with a crayon.

Now, these privations in a triangle are not moral evils, but the concept is the same. Evils done to a human person are things that deprive him of some essential quality of being human. Evil choices made by a human are evil because they are deviations away from how a human being should morally choose.

Evil is not a consequence of God’s existence per se, but it is something He chose to permit in creation. In this essentialist view, you couldn’t have either change, variation, multiplicity, or choice in a reality in which evil wasn’t permitted. Evil isn’t just moral choices, but any deviation in reality away from the essence of what a thing is; it’s ideal; it’s “blueprint” of what it is.

Though I should add, God may have had other or additional reasons for permitting evil.

I agree that this is an excellent summary. However, it behooves us to remain respectful of those who see evil as an actual existence. For example, it is very human to perceive that within the person there exists an evil component of the psyche. It is an illusion, but it is seen as quite real for the person who resents part(s) of himself, and the illusion seems to be part of the natural development of the conscience. The illusion is naturally projected onto others, especially those who exhibit hurtful behaviors (i.e. “that person is a jerk/evil”). It is also projected onto the world in general, in part.

In my observations, the perception of evil’s existence is a natural phenomenon, but Jesus calls us to forgive our enemies. The perception is transcended through prayer, understanding, and forgiveness.

 

[Achilles6129]

Evil is not eternal in the way that God is eternal. It’s not an equal, opposing force or substance. All things are within God’s Providence, including evil.

Two of the greatest theologians in western Christendom are Saint Augustine of Hippo and Saint Thomas Aquinas. Both taught that evil is an absence, a privation of goodness in something that exists. It is not a positively existing thing in itself. The idea is based in an essentialist view of reality, not an existentialist view. As an illustration, consider the ideal mathematical, equilateral triangle. Now imagine that triangle drawn by a six year old with a crayon. The triangle drawn by the child will still be a triangle but it will be defective. It will be deprived of perfections that make it a good triangle, for a six year old cannot draw straight, and a crayon is a poor tool for making straight lines. Now consider a triangle drawn by an architect with a straight edge. This will more closely resemble the mathematical, ideal triangle, but even so, it will still be imperfect, because even the line drawn by the sharpest pen will still, if examined closely enough, not have perfectly straight edges. But it will be less deprived of what it is to be a triangle than the one drawn with a crayon.

Now, these privations in a triangle are not moral evils, but the concept is the same. Evils done to a human person are things that deprive him of some essential quality of being human. Evil choices made by a human are evil because they are deviations away from how a human being should morally choose.

Evil is not a consequence of God’s existence per se, but it is something He chose to permit in creation. In this essentialist view, you couldn’t have either change, variation, multiplicity, or choice in a reality in which evil wasn’t permitted. Evil isn’t just moral choices, but any deviation in reality away from the essence of what a thing is; it’s ideal; it’s “blueprint” of what it is.

Though I should add, God may have had other or additional reasons for permitting evil.

So where is all this in the Bible? Also, if evil began to exist, then how did God not create evil?

 

[Achilles6129]

Also, remember that evil is subjective. Subjective things do not begin to exist.

Evil is subjective? Are you saying, then, that God’s view of evil is subjective?

 

[Wesrock]

So where is all this in the Bible?

You’re on a Catholic board. It doesn’t all have to be in Scripture, nor does Scripture tell us it must be.

Certainly the Bible tells us that God is first and created all. God did not mold from pre-existing substances, nor is there anything that is not God that is independent of Him.
We can apply our rational, God-given minds to pondering the question of how and why a perfectly good God can “create” evil.

Also, if evil began to exist, then how did God not create evil?

God did create evil, but differently than the way He creates good. Consider light and darkness. Light is a thing that positively exists. Darkness is the absence of light. God creates light, but He can choose to shine it where He wills and at whatever brightness He chooses. So God creates darkness and shadow, but not as a thing in itself the way light is a thing in itself, but as an absence that He’s responsible (on some level) for causing/permitting. This argument is not to absolve God of responsibility for permitting evil in the world, and if taken as such, you’re misinterpreting it.

Isaiah 45: 5 -7 “I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I gird you, though you do not know me, that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things.”

Of course, as stated, there are other ways to discuss the issue, but I’ve tried to summarize the generalities of Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas’ positions.

 

[Achilles6129]

OK so let me ask: do you believe that evil is an uncontrollable force?

 

[OneSheep]

OK so let me ask: do you believe that evil is an uncontrollable force?

I’ll take this one, with the caveat that I do not speak for Church doctrine in a literal way.

I think the best way to answer the question is to put it in the context of individual example. Please describe a “force”, then we can see what characterizes it as “evil”, then we can apply whether or not the force is controllable.

Great question!

 

[Wesrock]

OK so let me ask: do you believe that evil is an uncontrollable force?

No. Though perhaps you could illustrate what you mean?

 

[Achilles6129]

No. Though perhaps you could illustrate what you mean?

Sure. God doesn’t want to send anyone to hell but they end up going there, so obviously there’s something outside of God’s control going on. Also, God didn’t want them to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil yet he placed it in the garden anyway, a contradiction unless there’s something uncontrollable going on.

 

[Achilles6129]

I’ll take this one, with the caveat that I do not speak for Church doctrine in a literal way.

I think the best way to answer the question is to put it in the context of individual example. Please describe a “force”, then we can see what characterizes it as “evil”, then we can apply whether or not the force is controllable.

Great question!

What if I described evil itself as a force?

Let me put it this way: do you believe that the nature of God is uncontrollable? If so, then you believe that good is an uncontrollable force. It would follow that since evil is the opposite of good then evil also is an uncontrollable force.

 

[Wesrock]

Sure. God doesn’t want to send anyone to hell but they end up going there, so obviously there’s something outside of God’s control going on. Also, God didn’t want them to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil yet he placed it in the garden anyway, a contradiction unless there’s something uncontrollable going on.

We need distinguish between God’s antecedent will and His consequent will. A father have an antecedent will for his son to make all of the right choices. However, as a result of his consequent will for his son to make his own choices and mistakes, it may be part of his consequent will to discipline his son for making mistakes, as a matter of both correction and/or justice.

Whatever distinctions we make, nothing is going on outside of God’s control. Adam and Even falling was not “outside of His control.” People going to Hell are not outside of His control. Evil is not some unstoppable force, and I have a hard time conceiving of any such scenario in which evil is some unstoppable force outside of God’s control as being anything but polytheist.

 

[Wesrock]

What if I described evil itself as a force?

Let me put it this way: do you believe that the nature of God is uncontrollable? If so, then you believe that good is an uncontrollable force. It would follow that since evil is the opposite of good then evil also is an uncontrollable force.

Evil is not the opposite of good as some type of opposing substance or force, no more than darkness is the opposite of light. Darkness is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good. Even if we reject privation theory, evil cannot be some force which God has no control over unless we become essentially polytheist. What you’re speaking of sounds very much like what the Manichaeans preached.

 

[tonyrey]

Evil is not the opposite of good as some type of opposing substance or force, no more than darkness is the opposite of light. Darkness is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good. Even if we reject privation theory, evil cannot be some force which God has no control over unless we become essentially polytheist. What you’re speaking of sounds very much like what the Manichaeans preached.

An evil person is not intrinsically evil nor is will-power. It is the abuse of will-power which has negative, destructive consequences.

 

[Achilles6129]

We need distinguish between God’s antecedent will and His consequent will. A father have an antecedent will for his son to make all of the right choices. However, as a result of his consequent will for his son to make his own choices and mistakes, it may be part of his consequent will to discipline his son for making mistakes, as a matter of both correction and/or justice.

Whatever distinctions we make, nothing is going on outside of God’s control. Adam and Even falling was not “outside of His control.” People going to Hell are not outside of His control. Evil is not some unstoppable force, and I have a hard time conceiving of any such scenario in which evil is some unstoppable force outside of God’s control as being anything but polytheist.

There’s a contradiction then. In your case, God must have wanted Adam/Eve to fall, since he could have prevented them from doing so. In the same way, if God could prevent people from going to hell but doesn’t do so then he wants them to go there.

In each case, God says he doesn’t want the result, yet the result happens. Therefore, there must be something uncontrollable going on.

 

[Achilles6129]

Evil is not the opposite of good as some type of opposing substance or force, no more than darkness is the opposite of light. Darkness is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good. Even if we reject privation theory, evil cannot be some force which God has no control over unless we become essentially polytheist. What you’re speaking of sounds very much like what the Manichaeans preached.

The idea that there are some things outside of God’s control is proven by Scripture and logic.

 

[tonyrey]

There’s a contradiction then. In your case, God must have wanted Adam/Eve to fall, since he could have prevented them from doing so. In the same way, if God could prevent people from going to hell but doesn’t do so then he wants them to go there.

In each case, God says he doesn’t want the result, yet the result happens. Therefore, there must be something uncontrollable going on.

The gift of free will implies that God shares His power with us and permits evil but it is within the context of His infinite love. If people choose to reject Him and have a kingdom of their own He is not responsible for their self-inflicted isolation. We have to accept the drawbacks of free will because it is His greatest gift - without which none of us would be capable of the highest form of love

 

[OneSheep]

What if I described evil itself as a force?

Let me put it this way: do you believe that the nature of God is uncontrollable? If so, then you believe that good is an uncontrollable force. It would follow that since evil is the opposite of good then evil also is an uncontrollable force.

Good Morning, Achilles

If evil is described as a force, then it must have an existence, and there is evidence of the force. What I am asking for may seem ridiculous, but try this: what is the evidence of this force? We can examine the force itself for its origin and characteristics.

Whether or not the nature of God is uncontrollable is a bit different question. Obviously, the Father is in control, but He allows people to make choices.

Thanks for your response.