The origin of life

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This only works for recent centuries when various people recorded various observations or preserved ancient Greek and Chinese writings.

For example, an assumption is made that the data for mathematical formulas recorded during the Renaissance is accurate or that it generally represents the real world of that period. Because we can compare early mathematical formulas with current ones based on our own observations and study, we can tweak initial assumptions. Even then, one allows for a margin of error.

When considering the origin of life, especially that of human life, how does simulated population data based on average time lengths for a generation factor in overlapping generations – if overlapping generations were a normal and regular occurrence? Note: I am aware that researches have already proposed various solutions to that question. However, again we are dealing with assumptions based on current studies which may or may not reflect the actual activity in the real world millions of years ago.

I do not understand how simulations can work for millions of years ago when studies in geology and environmental science demonstrate millions of major and minor changes which have occurred since earth formed.

In my own back yard, I’ve watched grass cover cement and form a base of roots and dirt which unchecked would eventually obliterate the cement from sight. What kind of information have volcanoes obliterated from sight? The point is that data which accurately describes conditions during millions of years backwards in time is actually an unverifiable assumption.

Blessings,
granny

Human nature is unique in all the universe.
granny you are on the mark as usual. We are trying to put together a million piece puzzle with perhaps 1000 actual pieces. How do we know what that puzzle looks like?

If we introduce an ideology/worldview to it of our own making we can force the picture to be what we want/need.

If we use Revelation as a tool to make sure we stay on the right track then we are closer to what the picture looks like - we can better position the pieces. To quote a wise granny - “Revelation trumps.” 👍 But the storytelling will continue… sigh.
 
rossum

Of course. It is designed to replicate a previous event. That does not make the original event designed. If I make a laboratory scale replica of God does that mean that God Himself must have been designed by some higher entity?

You cannot even begin to make a laboratory scale replica of God. Man’s presumptuous brain! :mad:

Evidence of intelligent design in the universe does not require that we have scientific evidence of an Intelligent Designer. No more so than that the Big Bang, for which we have plenty of scientific evidence, requires that we have scientific evidence for what caused the Big Bang (no scientific evidence at all for that). 😃
 
We are not talking DNA the molecule. We are talking the DNA code.

The DNA code has all the characteristics of a language. Linguistics are being used today to study it. You can still hold-out but time will catch up with you rossum. You will eventually have to agree that the DNA language comes from a mind.
Chemistry. Look up Transfer RNA (tRNA). It is a four pronged molecule. One prong connects to a molecule of a specific amino acid, the other three prongs are an anticodon that matches one of the possible RNA codons. When the anticodon attaches to the mRNA the amino acid is in position to chemically link to the protein being decoded.

All chemistry.

rossum
 
Chemistry. Look up Transfer RNA (tRNA). It is a four pronged molecule. One prong connects to a molecule of a specific amino acid, the other three prongs are an anticodon that matches one of the possible RNA codons. When the anticodon attaches to the mRNA the amino acid is in position to chemically link to the protein being decoded.

All chemistry.

rossum
Chemistry is like the hardware in a computer. DNA code is like the software that drives it.
 
rossum

It is unwise to rely on “Science does not know X” to support your argument. Science is always working to reduce the number of possible values of X that you can use.

It is also unwise for science to presume that it alone has a pathway to the truth. It is unwise for science to rely on its own method to assert a presumption outside of science; namely that there can be no Intelligent Designer just because we cannot physically examine Him. :rolleyes:

You would never presume that there is no intelligent designer for the watch you wear on your wrist just because you had not met and shaken the hand of the man who designed it. :rolleyes:
 
The gap the Designer has to fit in just got a bit smaller:
Orign of Life: Adding UV Light Helps Form ‘Missing G’ of RNA Building Blocks.
It is unwise to rely on “Science does not know X” to support your argument. Science is always working to reduce the number of possible values of X that you can use.

rossum
I see your UV light and I raise you volcanic methane.

[Early Earth Haze Likely Provided Ultraviolet Shield for Planet, Says New CU-Boulder Study

June 3, 2010

](http://www.colorado.edu/news/r/2b462a33ff2c6d66d5d8d56a0a5f0c5a.html)
 
rossum

It is unwise to rely on “Science does not know X” to support your argument. Science is always working to reduce the number of possible values of X that you can use.

It is also unwise for science to presume that it alone has a pathway to the truth. It is unwise for science to rely on its own method to assert a presumption outside of science; namely that there can be no Intelligent Designer just because we cannot physically examine Him. :rolleyes:

You would never presume that there is no intelligent designer for the watch you wear on your wrist just because you had not met and shaken the hand of the man who designed it. :rolleyes:
I agree with you.

A good scientist will not rule out the possibility of a creator or designer a priori, but will evaluate the available evidence to form the most probable conclusion.
 
I agree with you.

A good scientist will not rule out the possibility of a creator or designer a priori, but will evaluate the available evidence to form the most probable conclusion.
A Science is just a body of knowlege. There is a common abuse of the word to mean only the low or physical sciences. As each science is a study of a particular genus etc. certain sciences are inappropriate for certain questions. The physical sciences presuppose epistimological science; and are prior to ontological and theological science. This is why the phrase “Queen of the sciences” is perscribed to Theology, because it is posterior to even philosophy (which it pressuposes).

To divide science and theology into different genera is absurd; for their distinction is one of species. For the ends of one are the presuppositions (in general) of the next.

A good scientist will at least know metaphysics, which is enough to demonstrate God’s existence a posteriori.

👍
 
A Science is just a body of knowlege. There is a common abuse of the word to mean only the low or physical sciences. As each science is a study of a particular species etc. certain sciences are inappropriate for certain questions. The physical sciences presuppose epistimological science; and are prior to ontological and theological science. This is why the phrase “Queen of the sciences” is perscribed to Theology, because it is posterior to even philosophy (which it pressuposes).

To divide science and theology into different genera is absurd; for their distinction is one of species. For the ends of one are the presuppositions (in general) of the next.

A good scientist will at least know metaphysics, which is enough to demonstrate God’s existence a posteriori.

👍
 
Chemistry is like the hardware in a computer. DNA code is like the software that drives it.
Computers are deterministic; chemistry is not. That is why it is impossible to predict where mutations will occur in DNA. See JohnJoe McFadden’s book: Quantum Evolution, for a crash course on the physical theories underlying mutations.

We are the mercy of God when it comes to getting good genes in evolution. Take Job as your example: “We accept good things from God; and should we not accept evil?” (Job 2:10).

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com
 
We are the mercy of God when it comes to getting good genes in evolution. Take Job as your example: “We accept good things from God; and should we not accept evil?” (Job 2:10).
Evolution is off-topic here, but as a side comment …

If we are at the mercy of God for getting mutations or not, then neo-Darwinian theory is refuted.

But that’s for another debate on another forum somewhere.
 
You might try

Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design by Stephen C. Meyer

#7 in Books > Science > Biological Sciences > Genetics
#7 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Religious Studies > Science & Religion

“Signature in the Cell is a defining work in the discussion of life’s origins . . . the powerful case Meyer presents cannot be ignored in any honest debate. . . [T]his book is an engaging, eye-opening, and often eye-popping read” (American Spectator )

“A careful presentation of this fiendishly difficult problem.” (Dr. Thomas Nagel, professor, New York University, in the Times Literary Supplement )

“A decisive case based upon breathtaking and cutting-edge science.” (Dr. Philip S. Skell, member, National Academy of Sciences, and Evan Pugh Professor Emeritus at Pennsylvania State University )

“A fascinating exploration . . . Whether you believe intelligent design is true or false, Signature in the Cell is a must-read book.” (Dr. Scott Turner, professor, environmental and forest biology, State University of New York, and author of The Tinkerer’s Accomplice )
 
You might try

Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design by Stephen C. Meyer

#7 in Books > Science > Biological Sciences > Genetics
#7 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Religious Studies > Science & Religion

“Signature in the Cell is a defining work in the discussion of life’s origins . . . the powerful case Meyer presents cannot be ignored in any honest debate. . . [T]his book is an engaging, eye-opening, and often eye-popping read” (American Spectator )

“A careful presentation of this fiendishly difficult problem.” (Dr. Thomas Nagel, professor, New York University, in the Times Literary Supplement )

“A decisive case based upon breathtaking and cutting-edge science.” (Dr. Philip S. Skell, member, National Academy of Sciences, and Evan Pugh Professor Emeritus at Pennsylvania State University )

“A fascinating exploration . . . Whether you believe intelligent design is true or false, Signature in the Cell is a must-read book.” (Dr. Scott Turner, professor, environmental and forest biology, State University of New York, and author of The Tinkerer’s Accomplice )
I think you all need to be very cautious with the argument from design. Cardinal Newman outright rejected Paley’s version, which is the one which most contemporary scientists follow, including the scientists listed above. Here are Newman’s thoughts on the argument from design:

“Physical Theology, then, is pretty much what it was two thousand years ago, and has not received much help from modern science : but now, on the contrary, I think it has received from it a positive disadvantage,—I mean, it has been taken out of its place, has been put too prominently forward, and thereby has almost been used as an instrument against Christianity” (Idea of a University, p. 451)

“[T]he God of Physical Theology may very easily become a mere idol; for He comes to the inductive mind in the medium of fixed appointments, so excellent, so skilful, so beneficent, that, when it has for a long time gazed upon them, it will think them too beautiful to be broken, and will at length so contract its notion of Him as to conclude that He never could have the heart (if I may dare use such a term) to undo or mar His own work; and this conclusion will be the first step towards its degrading its idea of God a second time, and identifying Him with His works. Indeed, a Being of Power, Wisdom, and Goodness, and nothing else, is not very different from the God of the Pantheist.” (ibid, p. 454.)

If you want to use a Catholic argument from design, please, use Saint Thomas Aquinas’: “We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result” (STh I, q. 2, a. 3). Note that nature acts “nearly always in the same;” so there may be variations. Also note that nature acts “so as to obtain the best result;” so there is natural selection.

Our Popes are on board with evolution, why is everyone afraid of this word??

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com
 
I see your UV light and I raise you volcanic methane.

[Early Earth Haze Likely Provided Ultraviolet Shield for Planet, Says New CU-Boulder Study

June 3, 2010

](http://www.colorado.edu/news/r/2b462a33ff2c6d66d5d8d56a0a5f0c5a.html)
Thanks for that. You have just refuted one of Answers in Genesis’ reasons why abiogenesis could not happen:If we were to grant the evolutionists’ assumption of no oxygen in the original atmosphere, another fatal problem arises. Since the ozone is made of oxygen, it would not exist; and the ultraviolet rays from the sun would destroy any biological molecules.
As to the formation of guanine, we will need to look at the amount of UV required and the amount of UV that got through the methane cloud.

rossum
 
You might try

Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design by Stephen C. Meyer

#7 in Books > Science > Biological Sciences > Genetics
#7 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Religious Studies > Science & Religion

“Signature in the Cell is a defining work in the discussion of life’s origins . . . the powerful case Meyer presents cannot be ignored in any honest debate. . . [T]his book is an engaging, eye-opening, and often eye-popping read” (American Spectator )

“A careful presentation of this fiendishly difficult problem.” (Dr. Thomas Nagel, professor, New York University, in the Times Literary Supplement )

“A decisive case based upon breathtaking and cutting-edge science.” (Dr. Philip S. Skell, member, National Academy of Sciences, and Evan Pugh Professor Emeritus at Pennsylvania State University )

“A fascinating exploration . . . Whether you believe intelligent design is true or false, Signature in the Cell is a must-read book.” (Dr. Scott Turner, professor, environmental and forest biology, State University of New York, and author of The Tinkerer’s Accomplice )
I doubt if any notice will be taken of your suggestion. None are so blind as those who don’t want to know…
 
If you want to use a Catholic argument from design, please, use Saint Thomas Aquinas’: “We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result” (STh I, q. 2, a. 3). Note that nature acts “nearly always in the same;” so there may be variations. Also note that nature acts “so as to obtain the best result;” so there is natural selection.
Natural selection does not have any idea about what is the best result. It does not know what is best or worst. If we were reduced to the Darwinian worldview there would be no best or worst, but only temporary survival and death.

But more importantly, we might use St. Thomas’ argument for design in his Summa Theologica (On the Government of Things in General (q 103, article 1) where he argues against the claim that the world developed by chance (that is, Darwinian theory):

Certain ancient philosophers denied the government of the world, saying that all things happened by chance. But such an opinion can be refuted as impossible in two ways.

First, by observation of things themselves: for we observe that in nature things happen always or nearly always for the best; which would not be the case unless some sort of providence directed nature towards good as an end; which is to govern. Wherefore the unfailing order we observe in things is a sign of their being governed;** for instance, if we enter a well-ordered house we gather therefrom the intention of him that put it in order**, as Tullius says (De Nat. Deorum ii), quoting Aristotle [Cleanthes].

Or we could use the argument from Fr. James McWilliams, S.J. in his Catholic college textbook Cosmology:

Structural Order. Teleology is order in activity, and is therefore called dynamic order. But there is also the order of structure. Structural order ; is the harmonious arrangement of diverse integral parts in one pattern or configuration. Thus the frond of a fern or palm has leaflets or blades, arranged along the stern in a recognizable pattern. Structural order is characterized by symmetry and proportion. Symmetry is the repetition of some feature, as in the similarity of two leaflets on opposite sides of the stem, or the two eyes of an animal. Proportion is the gradation of a feature or character according to a more or less fixed ratio; thus in the frond the row of leaflets on either side of the stem is arranged in gradually diminishing sizes from the base to the tip. Structural order is observable in the wings of a bird, in a snowflake, in a frost- flower on a window-pane. In fact, a most interesting study is the examination of natural objects, even with a microscope, to discover their intricate and amazing structures. Moreover, X-rays disclose a structure in the very atoms themselves.

It is true that structure is often suitable for useful activity, still it can be recognized without our knowing its utility. Hence, structural order, apart from dynamic order, furnishes independent evidence for intelligence.

Or we could try the Thomistic Catholic philosopher Dr. Peter Kreeft:

The Catholic philosopher, Dr. Peter Kreeft gives a nice explanation:

Peter Kreeft — Handbook of Christian Apologetics page 5.
The Design Argument
This sort of argument is of wide and perennial appeal. Almost everyone admits that reflection on the order and beauty of nature touches something very deep within us. But are the order and beauty of the product of intelligent design and conscious purpose? For theists the answer is yes. Arguments for design are attempts to vindicate this answer; to show why it is the most reasonable one to give. They have been formulated in ways as richly varied as the experience in which they are rooted. The following displays the core or central insight.
  1. The universe displays a staggering amount of intelligibility, both within the things we observe and in the way these things relate to others outside themselves. That is to say the way they exist and coexist display an intricately beautiful order and regularity that can fill even the most casual observer with wonder. It is the norm in nature for many different beings to work together to produce the same valuable end—for example, the organs in the body work for our life and health. (See also argument 8.)
  2. Either this intelligible order is the product of chance or of intelligent design.
  3. Not chance.
  4. Therefore the universe is the product of intelligent design.
  5. Design comes only from a mind, a designer.
Or we could try the Catholic Physicist Stephen Barr’s book Modern Physics and Ancient Faith where he cites the Latin Christian writer Minucius Felix near the beginning of the third century:

”If upon entering some home you saw that everything there was well-tended, neat, and decorative, you would believe that some master was in charge of it, and that he himself was superior to those good things. So too in the home of this world, when you see providence, order, and law in the heavens and on earth, believe there is a Lord and Author of the universe, more beautiful than the stars themselves and the various parts of the whole world.”

I can provide a dozen more like this also, if interested.
 
I doubt if any notice will be taken of your suggestion. None are so blind as those who don’t want to know…
I fully agree. 🙂

I did have a pleasant surprise recently in suggesting this book to an atheist on his blog. He said that he was interested and I think he will read it with an open mind. He’s also tired of the truly dead-end of atheistic thought and is branching out into some new ideas.
 
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