The origin of life

[rvilbig]

Are we talking the same language - I am calling them immortal because the author refers to them that way. Did you even read it? That is why “immortal” with the quotes.

But yes to be truly immortal they would have to be supernaturally created. (precisely what IDvolution is getting at)

I am sure granny will have something to say about the ugly squat hunchbacks comment.

Adam and Eve’s immortality was in Paradise, which many of the Church Fathers believed to have been a spiritual realm distinct from the universe we know. After sinning, “the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins” (Gen 3:22); these skins have been interpreted to mean the mortal bodies which we now inhabit, and which we now understand to have been generated through evolution. For example, Gregory Nazienzen wrote in Oration 38:

“[Man] forgot the Commandment which had been given to him; he yielded to the baleful fruit; and for his sin he was banished, at once from the Tree of Life, and from Paradise, and from God; and put on the coats of skins…that is, perhaps, the coarser flesh, both mortal and contradictory … Yet here too he makes a gain, namely death, and the cutting off of sin, in order that evil may not be immortal. Thus his punishment is changed into a mercy; for it is in mercy, I am persuaded, that God inflicts punishment.” (Nazienzen, Orations 38, XII)

To me, this suggests that the universe we live in was the “coat of skins” made for man’s fallen soul, and thus there is no need for a search for “immortal genes.” Other Church Fathers held similar ideas regarding the “coats of skins;” I’ll look into these when I get a chance. Through evolution, God stitched our skins. Interesting idea, no?

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

 

[edwest2]

Adam and Eve’s immortality was in Paradise, which many of the Church Fathers believed to have been a spiritual realm distinct from the universe we know. After sinning, “the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins” (Gen 3:22); these skins have been interpreted to mean the mortal bodies which we now inhabit, and which we now understand to have been generated through evolution. For example, Gregory Nazienzen wrote in Oration 38:

“[Man] forgot the Commandment which had been given to him; he yielded to the baleful fruit; and for his sin he was banished, at once from the Tree of Life, and from Paradise, and from God; and put on the coats of skins…that is, perhaps, the coarser flesh, both mortal and contradictory … Yet here too he makes a gain, namely death, and the cutting off of sin, in order that evil may not be immortal. Thus his punishment is changed into a mercy; for it is in mercy, I am persuaded, that God inflicts punishment.” (Nazienzen, Orations 38, XII)

To me, this suggests that the universe we live in was the “coat of skins” made for man’s fallen soul, and thus there is no need for a search for “immortal genes.” Other Church Fathers held similar ideas regarding the “coats of skins;” I’ll look into these when I get a chance. Through evolution, God stitched our skins. Interesting idea, no?

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

This has no basis in Scripture. God called to Adam and Eve but they hid themselves. They realized they were naked. Then God says, “Who told you you were naked?”

Clearly, by eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they had acquired knowledge.

God bless,
Ed

 

[buffalo]

Adam and Eve’s immortality was in Paradise, which many of the Church Fathers believed to have been a spiritual realm distinct from the universe we know. After sinning, “the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins” (Gen 3:22); these skins have been interpreted to mean the mortal bodies which we now inhabit, and which we now understand to have been generated through evolution. For example, Gregory Nazienzen wrote in Oration 38: “[Man] forgot the Commandment which had been given to him; he yielded to the baleful fruit; and for his sin he was banished, at once from the Tree of Life, and from Paradise, and from God; and put on the coats of skins…that is, perhaps, the coarser flesh, both mortal and contradictory … Yet here too he makes a gain, namely death, and the cutting off of sin, in order that evil may not be immortal. Thus his punishment is changed into a mercy; for it is in mercy, I am persuaded, that God inflicts punishment.” (Nazienzen, Orations 38, XII) To me, this suggests that the universe we live in was the “coat of skins” made for man’s fallen soul, and thus there is no need for a search for “immortal genes.” Other Church Fathers held similar ideas regarding the “coats of skins;” I’ll look into these when I get a chance. Through evolution, God stitched our skins. Interesting idea, no?

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

You mean Adam was created spirit only? Then how was Eve formed? I do not think this will work.

 

[rvilbig]

You mean Adam was created spirit only? Then how was Eve formed? I do not think this will work.

Perhaps the preternatural grace granted Adam and Eve included bodies made of a different sort of matter than that which we know in the universe today. Perhaps no entropy or teleomere diminution. Thus, Eve was formed from the side of Adam’s first body, in the pre-fall universe. The alternate realm where Paradise existed may even have even appeared very similar to the world we know, since Genesis 2 mentions rivers that do exist on the present earth; however, this universe was without the processes of decay we know here. As Saint Gregory Nazienzen, the Doctor of the Church, indicated, even the other forms of life were different than those known in our current universe, such as the “immortal plants, by which is meant perhaps the Divine Conceptions, both the simpler and the more perfect” (Oration 38, XII). I think the “coats of skin” insight is the key to understanding our modern understanding of the history of life. God fashioned this world to embody our souls banished from the paradisaical universe.

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

 

[rvilbig]

You mean Adam was created spirit only? Then how was Eve formed? I do not think this will work.

By the way, the note in the Ignatius RSV Catholic Edition, printed “with ecclesiastical approval of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops” states the following:

“There is nothing in these early chapters that commits us to any particular scientific view of the origins of the world or man, or that would exclude the evolution hypothesis” (RSV, note on Gen 2:4b)

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

 

[buffalo]

Perhaps the preternatural grace granted Adam and Eve included bodies made of a different sort of matter than that which we know in the universe today. Perhaps no entropy or teleomere diminution. Thus, Eve was formed from the side of Adam’s first body, in the pre-fall universe. The alternate realm where Paradise existed may even have even appeared very similar to the world we know, since Genesis 2 mentions rivers that do exist on the present earth; however, this universe was without the processes of decay we know here. As Saint Gregory Nazienzen, the Doctor of the Church, indicated, even the other forms of life were different than those known in our current universe, such as the “immortal plants, by which is meant perhaps the Divine Conceptions, both the simpler and the more perfect” (Oration 38, XII). I think the “coats of skin” insight is the key to understanding our modern understanding of the history of life. God fashioned this world to house our souls banished from the paradisaical universe.

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

I think the bodily immortality could be a force that kept the 2nd law in check that was withdrawn after the fall.(tree of life?) I am not sure it has to be an alternate realm.

 

[buffalo]

By the way, the note in the Ignatius RSV Catholic Edition, printed “with ecclesiastical approval of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops” states the following:
“There is nothing in these early chapters that commits us to any particular scientific view of the origins of the world or man, or that would exclude the evolution hypothesis” (RSV, note on Gen 2:4b) -Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

This has to be reconciled:

Adam and Eve - first parents
Eve from Adam
Bodily immortality etc… as below.

1. 
   *]The Continuous Preservation and Governing of the World
   *] God keeps all created things in existence. (De fide.)
   *] God co-operates immediately in every act of His creatures. (Sent. communis.)
   *] God through His providence, protects and guides all that He has created. (De fide.)
   
   The Divine Work of Creation
   
   The Doctrine of Revelation Regarding Man or "Christian Anthropology"
   *] The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
   *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
   *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
   *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
   *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
   *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
   *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
   *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
   *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
   *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
   *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
   *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
   *] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
   *] Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.

 

[rvilbig]

This has to be reconciled:

Adam and Eve - first parents
Eve from Adam
Bodily immortality etc… as below.

1. 
   *]The Continuous Preservation and Governing of the World
   *] God keeps all created things in existence. (De fide.)
   *] God co-operates immediately in every act of His creatures. (Sent. communis.)
   *] God through His providence, protects and guides all that He has created. (De fide.)
   
   The Divine Work of Creation
   
   The Doctrine of Revelation Regarding Man or "Christian Anthropology"
   *] The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
   *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
   *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
   *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
   *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
   *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
   *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
   *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
   *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
   *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
   *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
   *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
   *] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
   *] Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.

1. 
   Thanks, I’ll work off this list when I have time. I’m convinced that evolution is an acceptable theory, as was John Paul II, who I’m convinced thought about it a great deal before making his statement in 1996.
   
   -Ryan Vilbig
   ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

 

[grannymh]

By the way, the note in the Ignatius RSV Catholic Edition, printed “with ecclesiastical approval of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops” states the following:
“There is nothing in these early chapters that commits us to any particular scientific view of the origins of the world or man, or that would exclude the evolution hypothesis” (RSV, note on Gen 2:4b)
-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

Ooops. Whoever wrote that note is unaware of current science. That is totally sad. A black day for sure.

Good thing ecclesiastical approval is the view of a committee. Check the disclaimer. It should indicate that there is no faith or moral error. The neat trick is that the evolution hypothesis is in the scientific realm. With such bland writing as above, real science slips by.

Blessings,
granny

I am looking forward to the day when Catholics can figure out that the human person is top priority in the Genesis account of creation.

 

[buffalo]

Thanks, I’ll work off this list when I have time. I’m convinced that evolution is an acceptable theory, as was John Paul II, who I’m convinced thought about it a great deal before making his statement in 1996.

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

It is not worth spending time reconciling these with science. Theistic evo’s have tried for years.

Pay attention to what the current science is saying. The modern synthesis is giving way to the EES. Junk DNA is gone. The tree of life has been toppled. Features “evolving” several times. The DNA code itself. Regulatory processes. Conserved core processes. HGT. The list goes on.

Where do you think this will all end up?

Hint:

IDvolution.

 

[rvilbig]

You mean Adam was created spirit only? Then how was Eve formed? I do not think this will work.

Saint Augustine also considered this universe to be a skin (if I understand this passage correctly);

“While [Adam and Eve] lived [in Paradise], it was not so sublimely extended. You had not as yet extended the heavens like a skin; not as yet had you spread abroad on every side the glory of their death.” (Confessions, 13.15.16)

I think he’s saying the universe is the coat of skins from Gen 3:21. I’m still looking for other references to this “coat of skins” idea.

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

 

[grannymh]

It is not worth spending time reconciling these with science. Theistic evo’s have tried for years.

Pay attention to what the current science is saying. The modern synthesis is giving way to the EES. Junk DNA is gone. The tree of life has been toppled. Features “evolving” several times. The DNA code itself. Regulatory processes. Conserved core processes. HGT. The list goes on.

Where do you think this will all end up?

Hint:

IDvolution.

Nothing wrong with what you are saying. You are on target.

The problem I am spotting on CAF is that a current natural science theory is being applied to Adam and his (our) human nature which of course is a stealth attack on Catholic doctrine.

Where do I think this will all end up? Shall I answer on a good day or on one of my cranky days?

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred.

 

[rvilbig]

You mean Adam was created spirit only? Then how was Eve formed? I do not think this will work.

That this universe is the skin of Gen 3:21 is actually mentioned in the Psalms:

“[You] have stretched out the heavens like a skin” (Ps 104:2)

That’s how Augustine’s translation has it, anyway. (See Literal Meaning of Genesis, 2.21)

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

 

[rvilbig]

You mean Adam was created spirit only? Then how was Eve formed? I do not think this will work.

Here it is, Saint Augustine, On Genesis: A Refutation of the Manichees:

“But [Adam and Eve] continued to remain in Paradise, even though now under the sentence of God’s condemnation, until it came to the tunics of skin, that is, to the mortal condition of this life…And so when the man went against the commandment and sought to be God, not by lawful imitation but by unlawful pride, he was cast down into the mortal condition of monstrous beasts” (Section 2.32)

These bodies were not our originals; they’re animal bodies given to us as punishment. God made these bodies through evolution, as JPII and BXVI have taught, the stitching of our mortal skins.

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

 

[Ismael]

This was actually demonstrated in the 1950s, in the Miller and Urey Experiment. The generally accepted hypothesis is that lightning strikes on the early earth synthesized the building blocks of life which increasingly organized to include lipid membranes and ribozymes (which replicate).

Well first of all many criticize this experiments because it is thought it does not account for the actual conditions on Earth when abiogenesis was supposed to occur.

Second they did not create anything ‘animate’. They showed that from inolrganic compunds amino acids were formed.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Interesting fact. Where did these first humanoid beings live and when?

Africa, a couple of million years before your Universe was created.

 

[Moonstruck888]

The tree of life has been toppled. Features “evolving” several times.

Try not to be stupid. If you kid yourself on that there is any debate like this among serious biologists, then you are even more desperate than I thought.

You’ve got fake biology and fake theology on the IDvolution camp.

 

[Ismael]

Try not to be stupid. If you kid yourself on that there is any debate like this among serious biologists, then you are even more desperate than I thought.

You’ve got fake biology and fake theology on the IDvolution camp.

Actually there IS debate about evolution. Biologists who contest the theory of evolution or at least the current mainstream theory (there are even atheists among those) are a minority, sure, but they are there.

With this I do not mean to imply I support ID, or that those scientists claim to support ID (which is not a scientific theory anyway), but every scientific theory is subject to debate, even if most scientists accept it as ‘true’ (the same goes for other theories, such as Einstein theories on gravitation- General Relativity).

 

[buffalo]

Try not to be stupid. If you kid yourself on that there is any debate like this among serious biologists, then you are even more desperate than I thought.

You’ve got fake biology and fake theology on the IDvolution camp.

WOW - now I am convinced…

But in the meantime google - Altenberg 16

 

[Moonstruck888]

WOW - now I am convinced…

But in the meantime google - Altenberg 16

I think I’ve heard enough of your propaganda on this matter. If you’re not even going to take this seriously, what’s the point?