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frobert
Guest
The original poster may have meant romantically = sexually. I know its confusing.
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TStokes
Guest
I know non married sex is wrong but romance would be the feeling leading to marriage so it would be needed at some point before marriage as romantic love leads to marriage
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LongingSoul
Guest
Genuine love is not merely defined by the mutual passion and feeling of the sex act. I’m probably going to burst your bubble and reveal secret womens business here… but in long time marriages, the sex act is often more about meeting the males need for the act… the womans need being met in attention and affection elsewhere. It’s still genuine love.
Similarly, where there are arranged marriages, the faith in and devotion to tribal or cultural purposes that marriage serves, engenders a love between spouses that is in service to God (or the gods) rather than in service primarily to personal gratification. It’s still genuine love. When people identify with a higher purpose than their own personal gratification, their relationship is infused by love.
When people have sex deliberately detached from the higher purpose of human sexual function, that’s not love. That’s ‘in lust’. A woman fell in love with a rollercoaster there in the US a couple of years ago. She wanted to marry it. It made world news. People can fall in love with anything and everybody knows that. Falling in love is good if it is good and evil if it is evil.
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frobert
Guest
You wrote nothing that I disagree with.
The love you are expressing comes in the form of language and semiotics. Semiotics does not make it not love but it is difficult for most people who have not had the learning in CC teaching that you have had would not identify with that metaphysical definition of love.
The point I was making is a married couple can have loveless sex and it would still be licit just that to me it feels unwholesome. People do get married for reasons other than love. It the eyes of the CC it is love but most people take it at face value that there is no love between the spouses.
When a poet describes love in feelings most can identify with it
Emily Dickinson is one of my favorite poets. Whatever she writes is written with passion.
To love is so startling it leaves little time for anything else.
Emily Dickinson
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frobert
Guest
I think I found the different attitudes we have about love.
In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul will argue that love is an action, not an emotion.
As I stated in previous posts this is a difficult concept for the average person to get their heads around. It goes right back to what I said in a previous post
Philosophically, when expressed in whatever metaphysical manner, love loses its value
I will rephrase that in a gentler way
Philosophically, when expressed in whatever metaphysical manner, love changes its value.
Some might reason that Paul defines genuine love when spouses satisfy each other’s sexual need in a sexual action even when act is devoid of feelings of love because for him genuine love is expressed in the action and not the feelings. Paul might be seeing feelings as having a negative value because they are a source of temptation which I agree with, but I also know that the cause of much mental anguish and illness comes from denying our feelings. We should neither deny our feelings nor act on them without thought of their consequences.
BTW, I believe there is evidence that women have sexual needs also.
I really do appreciate you trying to explain things here but the reasoning appears more and more obtuse at least to me.
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clem456
Guest
There is so much confusion about the word love and what it means.
A good read in this area is CS Lewis’ “The Four Loves”.
There is affection (storge in Greek), friendship (philia), sacrificial love (agape), and eros (which is much more than what our word “erotic” implies). Modern culture has confused these ideas and tried to consolidate them all as “love”, and tried to make them all equal, when they are not the same thing. This is a relatively recent phenomenon starting in the roughly 1800’s, when love began to be associated primarily with the expression of strong feelings of desire, or romance as we might call it. A good marriage will have elements of all of these.
Also, the writings of St Bernard or St John of the Cross are great. The language they use to describe the love of God is highly erotic. It’s not blatantly sexual, but it’s full of the passionate desire of God for his people and vice versa. This kind of language seems very odd to us today, especially to men. There was not the confusion in those days which we have now. Holy men could express themselves in this way without being labeled as effeminate and without the confusion of romance or homosexuality.
A good read in this area is CS Lewis’ “The Four Loves”.
There is affection (storge in Greek), friendship (philia), sacrificial love (agape), and eros (which is much more than what our word “erotic” implies). Modern culture has confused these ideas and tried to consolidate them all as “love”, and tried to make them all equal, when they are not the same thing. This is a relatively recent phenomenon starting in the roughly 1800’s, when love began to be associated primarily with the expression of strong feelings of desire, or romance as we might call it. A good marriage will have elements of all of these.
Also, the writings of St Bernard or St John of the Cross are great. The language they use to describe the love of God is highly erotic. It’s not blatantly sexual, but it’s full of the passionate desire of God for his people and vice versa. This kind of language seems very odd to us today, especially to men. There was not the confusion in those days which we have now. Holy men could express themselves in this way without being labeled as effeminate and without the confusion of romance or homosexuality.
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frobert
Guest
I love the poetry of St John of the Cross.
Here is a quote about him that I came across
May, 1993 — Stratford… have been reading through the poetry of 15th century Spain, and I find myself drawn to one by the mystic writer and visionary St. John of the Cross; the untitled work is an exquisite, richly metaphoric love poem between himself and his god. It could pass as a love poem between any two at any time … His approach seems more akin to early Islamic or Judaic works in its more direct route to communication to his god… I have gone over three different translations of the poem, and am struck by how much a translation can alter our interpretation. Am reminded that most holy scriptures come to us in translation, resulting in a diversity of views.
If you like spiritual poetry try Rumi who was a 13th century mystic Sufi. Even though he is islamic he often writes about Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
In the fire of the Divine love, behold I saw a whole universe
Each particle there possessed Jesus’ Breath. Rumi
What I find common in mystic poetry is their passion for God.
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StevenFrancis
Guest
A lot of ink being spilled here on this. Much of it very heartfelt and presented in a loving nature, and I’ve found it a very good debate for a change, rather than the ferocious threads on the matter which always end up closed by a moderator. But in spite of the volume and length of the posts, I gather just a few facts for the average Joe to take away.
We can’t help who we love. (eros)
We are supposed to love everyone. (agape)
We CAN help acting out on our love. (eros). Though it is difficult. This applies to any person of any sexual attraction. Sexual attraction is a strong force to be reckoned with. As is the temptation to perform sexual acts outside of a natural heterosexual marriage between one man and one woman.
Man can’t change the fact that the only licit sexual acts are between a married man and woman. We’d like to, but we can’t, on a moral level. No matter who we are, or what the culture we live in tells us.
We are all called to love (agape)
We all experience love (agape and eros)
Learning to take control of our sexual desires is the most supreme effort that any of us will take in our lives. It is a challenge, and one that almost every one will fail at from time to time. We are offered forgiveness from an all merciful God when we fall, if we are legitimately sorry.
The culture, on its’ own, has developed a paradigm in which we are no longer supposed to be sorry when we act out on our temptations to eros love outside of heterosexual marriage.
The culture is, (successfully, I might add), taking on the roll of God.
This is a dangerous situation for homosexuals, adulterers, masterbators, the incestuous, fornicators, pedophiles, etc… The culture does more education in the world than the Church. Instead of being taught sorrow, and to keep up the good fight, our children for several generations now are taught to give in, and just do whatever feels good, because the feelings are all organic and natural, and the Church is just a big old neigh sayer who wants you to feel guilt and remorse.
Without guilt and remorse (conscience), there can no repentance (turning away).
Without repentance, there is no salvation.
Without salvation there is a cold separation from God in eternity.
This separation is hell.
We need to be sorry, whether hetero or homosexual, every time we commit sex acts with someone other than our heterosexual husband or wife inside of our marriage. If we’re not sorry, we’re playing with our souls. We’re betting our souls on God being wrong about chastity.
We need to pray for ourselves and each other for strength, forgiveness and for wisdom as an act of love.
We all need strength for our journey of chastity, which is still to be lived out in love (agape), and should never involve hatred or meanness to our brother or sister sinner.
Hard to practice? You bet.
The road is wide which leads to perdition.
The road is narrow which leads to eternal life with God.
We should try to enter eternity via the narrow way.
May God bless us all on our journey,
Steve
We can’t help who we love. (eros)
We are supposed to love everyone. (agape)
We CAN help acting out on our love. (eros). Though it is difficult. This applies to any person of any sexual attraction. Sexual attraction is a strong force to be reckoned with. As is the temptation to perform sexual acts outside of a natural heterosexual marriage between one man and one woman.
Man can’t change the fact that the only licit sexual acts are between a married man and woman. We’d like to, but we can’t, on a moral level. No matter who we are, or what the culture we live in tells us.
We are all called to love (agape)
We all experience love (agape and eros)
Learning to take control of our sexual desires is the most supreme effort that any of us will take in our lives. It is a challenge, and one that almost every one will fail at from time to time. We are offered forgiveness from an all merciful God when we fall, if we are legitimately sorry.
The culture, on its’ own, has developed a paradigm in which we are no longer supposed to be sorry when we act out on our temptations to eros love outside of heterosexual marriage.
The culture is, (successfully, I might add), taking on the roll of God.
This is a dangerous situation for homosexuals, adulterers, masterbators, the incestuous, fornicators, pedophiles, etc… The culture does more education in the world than the Church. Instead of being taught sorrow, and to keep up the good fight, our children for several generations now are taught to give in, and just do whatever feels good, because the feelings are all organic and natural, and the Church is just a big old neigh sayer who wants you to feel guilt and remorse.
Without guilt and remorse (conscience), there can no repentance (turning away).
Without repentance, there is no salvation.
Without salvation there is a cold separation from God in eternity.
This separation is hell.
We need to be sorry, whether hetero or homosexual, every time we commit sex acts with someone other than our heterosexual husband or wife inside of our marriage. If we’re not sorry, we’re playing with our souls. We’re betting our souls on God being wrong about chastity.
We need to pray for ourselves and each other for strength, forgiveness and for wisdom as an act of love.
We all need strength for our journey of chastity, which is still to be lived out in love (agape), and should never involve hatred or meanness to our brother or sister sinner.
Hard to practice? You bet.
The road is wide which leads to perdition.
The road is narrow which leads to eternal life with God.
We should try to enter eternity via the narrow way.
May God bless us all on our journey,
Steve
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LongingSoul
Guest
Too right, Steve. Personally, I have such a strong sense of that paradigm and its origins in the devil. He inspires people to passionately defend eros as a more supreme experience than agape and robs them of what we call true beautitude… divine joy.
To be counter cultural in our age, and to strive obediently for purity and chastity, is to die to the self for Gods sake. There is no true love outside of Gods will and though we are blind and fall for illusions and mirages, every person has the capacity to hear the truth and have faith and to deliberately live a holy life of godly heroism sharing in the divine joy of Christ. For that reason, I could never give eros the divine merit of agape . Eros is good when it is good and evil when it is evil.
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Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
Which us why I would hope that, amidst all this (very civil) talk in this thread, a suggestion is not coming to the fore: that most people have the capacity to experience or express eros in a good way but same-sex attracted folks can only experience or express eros in a bad way. That would be saying something very specific about the sort of people same-sex attractive folks are: which is to say, not very much like people at all. Our nature has been wounded, not destroyed by sin. To suggest that there are some people in whom nature has been (if only in part) completely destroyed by sin is to remove them from the category of the human. It’s also to go far beyond Catholic teaching with respect to concupiscence and desire and well into a particularly grotesque vision of the human that sometimes peers dead-eyed from classical reform-oriented Protestantism.
I keep returning to the notion that what’s important here is to be able to articulate a compelling vision of life for same-sex attracted people that can be recognized by them as characterized by and capable of hope, joy, and love while still bearing the marks of a faithful Catholic witness. It may be that we are being called to imagine what such a life might look like. Which is very scary and exciting for all the usual reasons: it entails actually doing theology. But if the vision of life we articulate includes being ashamed of or seeing as sinful the human desire to love and be loved by someone with whom we could share a life and grow in virtue…then I’m afraid there’s very little likelihood that anyone will actually be able to discern the contours of hope–the contours of the Good News–in such a vision.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Try arguing that point to Dante–the whole of the Comedy is built on eros, and not just with respect to the figure of Beatrice, but with respect to eros conceived as a desire that is upward moving–the longing desire of the lower for the higher. See Deus Caritas Est.
To a point, yes. But when it is good, it can be quite good (again, see Dante). And it would be inaccurate to say that it can only ever be bad.
Which us why I would hope that, amidst all this (very civil) talk in this thread, a suggestion is not coming to the fore: that most people have the capacity to experience or express eros in a good way but same-sex attracted folks can only experience or express eros in a bad way. That would be saying something very specific about the sort of people same-sex attractive folks are: which is to say, not very much like people at all. Our nature has been wounded, not destroyed by sin. To suggest that there are some people in whom nature has been (if only in part) completely destroyed by sin is to remove them from the category of the human. It’s also to go far beyond Catholic teaching with respect to concupiscence and desire and well into a particularly grotesque vision of the human that sometimes peers dead-eyed from classical reform-oriented Protestantism.
I keep returning to the notion that what’s important here is to be able to articulate a compelling vision of life for same-sex attracted people that can be recognized by them as characterized by and capable of hope, joy, and love while still bearing the marks of a faithful Catholic witness. It may be that we are being called to imagine what such a life might look like. Which is very scary and exciting for all the usual reasons: it entails actually doing theology. But if the vision of life we articulate includes being ashamed of or seeing as sinful the human desire to love and be loved by someone with whom we could share a life and grow in virtue…then I’m afraid there’s very little likelihood that anyone will actually be able to discern the contours of hope–the contours of the Good News–in such a vision.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
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LongingSoul
Guest
We have to start from a point where Catholic theology regarding homosexuality is not up for debate. There is the misconception that the highest of experiences in self knowledge or self realisation is to be joined with another person… when the truth is that we come to know ourselves most fully in solitude. Alone with God. Solitude does not mean loneliness and does not require loneliness and in the Catholic Church we have a clergy and sisterhood who (ideally) model for us a vocation of celibacy which accomodates our human desire to love and be loved. The human desire to love and be loved is the ultimate reflection of our desire for communion with God afterall.
The chapters of Courage are Vatican approved ministries guiding people with same sex attraction to live honestly and fully, their true vocation in life, while staying true to the Church teaching regarding human sexuality. It’s a ministry that regards the person first rather than promoting their orientation as the ultimate definition of who they are. That is an unpalatable concept for some who are invested in forcing the opposite concept of a person to the fore.
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mgoforth
Guest
Mark, could you help me understand in simpler language, or with an example, what you’re trying to express here? I agree that everyone has the “desire to love and be loved by someone with whom we could share a life and grow in virtue”, but are you suggesting that we should encourage homosexuals to pursue that desire? To do so would clearly be sinful. Unfortunately, their desires in that area are disordered and cannot be fulfilled morally. It seems to me that rather than holding out false hope, we should encourage people to come to terms with moral realities and accept the cross(es) that God has given them. For someone attracted to others of the same sex, the cross they need to bear is resisting those desires, no matter how natural they seem.
Did I misunderstand your intention?
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TStokes
Guest
Yep but compared to male sex drive their needs seem like nothing at all
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Cricket2
Guest
Why is this so important anyway? I truly understand the teachings of the Church concerning chastity for both “straight and homosexual individuals.” But I think that it is wrong and futile to try and say that the “Love” felt between two individuals who are gay or have SSA is somehow not love.
There are a lot of varied factors that have led to the current issues of those who are SSA or transgendered (Which is not the same thing as being homosexual necessarily). People do suffer a lot because of this orientation, either because they don’t want it to be so, or society rejects them, discriminates against them, and talks about them like they are lepers.
We certainly are not called as Christians to hate them, reject them or mistreat them. We might be better off not worrying about our idea of what there love is about, and think more about our own ability to truly love. As a single “Straight” woman I follow the Churches teachings on sexuality willingly. I would encourage those who have SSA to do the same because of her teachings. But I will not judge their feelings of love for each other.
There are a lot of varied factors that have led to the current issues of those who are SSA or transgendered (Which is not the same thing as being homosexual necessarily). People do suffer a lot because of this orientation, either because they don’t want it to be so, or society rejects them, discriminates against them, and talks about them like they are lepers.
We certainly are not called as Christians to hate them, reject them or mistreat them. We might be better off not worrying about our idea of what there love is about, and think more about our own ability to truly love. As a single “Straight” woman I follow the Churches teachings on sexuality willingly. I would encourage those who have SSA to do the same because of her teachings. But I will not judge their feelings of love for each other.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Do you see the key word above?
This is how EVERYTHING is viewed nowadays: How do you** FEEL**?
Love is NOT just about feelings.
Sure, Romantic Love, as portrayed in Western Culture (since Rousseau) has always been about feelings. But that is not REAL love. That is why half of all marriages today end in divorce. The FEELINGS evaporated, HENCE, no more love.
Real Love is an act of the Will. That is what Charity is. That is what Sacramental Marriage Love is about. It is what the Love of God is about.
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Cricket2
Guest
Tsk, tsk. No need to yell. I can see and hear. No, love is not about feeling, but people do feel love. There is a lot of false love out there, including among heterosexuals and Christians who think they love God. That is why marriages end.
I love many people, but am not married. Love is hard work, and that is what people fail to realize. I am sure that many people who are gay do actually love each other and work hard at it. I am not opposed to the teachings of the Church, what I am opposed to is people having patronizing attitudes and self-righteous agendas that might allow them to discriminate against those who do have to deal with SSA. Saying that their love for each other is not real is an opinion only. Love is not about sex. It is about caring for others, sacrificing for others, helping others, working for others, and showing compassion.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
So there is real love between a dog and his owner? They should be allowed to marry too right?
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Eagle1937
Guest
Excellent. Finally, some reason. Homosexuality is a dirty act and lifestyle.
edition.cnn.com/2013/12/21/world/africa/uganda-anti-gay-bill/
AIDS is epidemic in Africa. And this is a first step and trying to curb this disease.
In 1979, AIDS became present in the USA - Sharing drug IV needles and anal sex between homosexuals…
And this shows how lenient we have become and the moral decline regarding this issue. Europe and the USA…
‘It was briefly shelved amid the backlash. At the time, some European nations threatened to withdraw aid to Uganda, which relies on millions of dollars from the international community”
Money first mentality and sexual immorality - this is what the world is today. One evil on top of another evil. Using money as a weapon.
Homosexuality and same sex marriage. We are not talking about men or women being best friends and sharing a life together. Men holding hands or even sleeping in the same bed. Even this is pushing it…
It is the act of anal sex between men and passing this off as Love. It clearly is not. And demand legal recognition?
Same for women. Sexual deviations and it is a disorder. And they also demand legal recognition and States pass laws?
A man can love another man. Spiritual love.
But when a man has anal sex with another man and pass it off as love, then it is a disorder.
edition.cnn.com/2013/12/21/world/africa/uganda-anti-gay-bill/
AIDS is epidemic in Africa. And this is a first step and trying to curb this disease.
In 1979, AIDS became present in the USA - Sharing drug IV needles and anal sex between homosexuals…
And this shows how lenient we have become and the moral decline regarding this issue. Europe and the USA…
‘It was briefly shelved amid the backlash. At the time, some European nations threatened to withdraw aid to Uganda, which relies on millions of dollars from the international community”
Money first mentality and sexual immorality - this is what the world is today. One evil on top of another evil. Using money as a weapon.
Homosexuality and same sex marriage. We are not talking about men or women being best friends and sharing a life together. Men holding hands or even sleeping in the same bed. Even this is pushing it…
It is the act of anal sex between men and passing this off as Love. It clearly is not. And demand legal recognition?
Same for women. Sexual deviations and it is a disorder. And they also demand legal recognition and States pass laws?
A man can love another man. Spiritual love.
But when a man has anal sex with another man and pass it off as love, then it is a disorder.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Have you read this thread at all? I don’t think anyone here has said that gay marriage should be allowed.
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clem456
Guest
Yes, sex is not the only expression of love. But the title of the thread is
"The origin of love that homosexuals feel for one another.
So sexuality is an integral part of the discussion.
There are many people who care about one another, and sacrifice, and help each other compassionately, who do not demand recognition as “married”.
I understand that all people want tenderness, friendship, sex, and affirmation of the lifestyle they choose to achieve those things. But the homosexual agenda wants recognition of a conjugal union, of which sex is an integral part, while at the same time denying the conjugal aspect has much significance. Can you say deception?
Marriage has a sexual aspect. Friendship, filial love, care of a pet, etc do not normally have a sexual aspect. They are different things. People have bodies, male and female. The human body is an objective reality, it has a purpose, a meaning, and a significance. Our physical nature is not something that can be used when we need to argue rhetoric and then denied at other times. Our bodies are given to us by God, they are a reality.
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