The origins of Catholic doctrine regarding the BV

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Of course, you will find no statement in Scripture that explicitly says “what’s written here is the only authority in the church,” or something to that effect. Sola Scriptura is a hermeneutical principle for how to judge the teachings of the church, pastors, etc. The principle operates on the fact that Scripture is the word of God. As such, it carries the authority of God Himself. Since there is no authority higher than God, anything which contradicts what it teaches is to be disregarded, no matter who it is doing the teaching. This is explicit in Scripture because Scripture explicits states the authority of God and His word.
There is a slight problem, though. Much of what is stated in the bible can be interpreted in more than one way. If one person firmly believes that he is guided by the Holy Spirit when he reads a passage from the bible and interprets it, and another person firmly believes that he is guided by the Holy Spirit when he reads the same passage from the bible and yet interprets it in a way which contradicts the first person’s interpretation - how do we know whose interpretation is correct?
 
There is a slight problem, though. Much of what is stated in the bible can be interpreted in more than one way.
While there are passages of Scripture that can have different applications, there is only one interpretation.
If one person firmly believes that he is guided by the Holy Spirit when he reads a passage from the bible and interprets it, and another person firmly believes that he is guided by the Holy Spirit when he reads the same passage from the bible and yet interprets it in a way which contradicts the first person’s interpretation - how do we know whose interpretation is correct?
The same way you determine the correctness of any other writing. The Holy Spirit does not speak in Scripture in a mystical language that requires decoding. The Scriptures follow the same rule of grammar, context, etc. that any other work does. If you can read a work of non-fiction and understand what it says, why is the same not true of Scripture?

What you just said to me in what I quoted did not require infallible interpretation.
 
ExtraBiblical thought has existed ever since God created the Bible.
God ‘created’ the Bible???

What, did it drop from the clouds with a loud voice proclaiming it to be His Word?
The Bible is God’s word. God’s word is higher than anything …
First off, Jesus is the Word of God, not the bible.

Second, just how do you know that the books in the Bible are inspired by God? How about the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Peter? or even the Bhagavad-Gita or the Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

What authority declared which writings were to be included the bible and which weren’t; which were inspired by God, and which weren’t? It is obviously higher than the bible itself.

Why do you accept that authority?
 
While there are passages of Scripture that can have different applications, there is only one interpretation.

The same way you determine the correctness of any other writing. The Holy Spirit does not speak in Scripture in a mystical language that requires decoding. The Scriptures follow the same rule of grammar, context, etc. that any other work does. If you can read a work of non-fiction and understand what it says, why is the same not true of Scripture?

What you just said to me in what I quoted did not require infallible interpretation.
What I just said to you was not the word of God. What I just said to you was written in a language you are obviously familiar with. What I just said to you was written in 21st century American English - not Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or Latin. Nor was it translated from any of those languages.

The correct interpretation of Bible Scripture has people of all denominations discussing, debating, arguing, and fighting. Many passages are ambiguous.

Here is an example. When on the cross, Jesus said “It is finished.” What did He mean?

I’m posting what I just found on one site. I haven’t read it all because I don’t want a headache right now. I have no idea of the church to which the author belongs:

In the Greek, Christ’s cry from the cross, “It is finished!” is an accounting term, meaning that the debt had been paid in full. Justice had been satisfied by full payment of its penalty, and thus God could “be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus” (Rom 3:26).
Code:
Answer: This is a fanciful approach to the idea of Eternal Security that has come into popularity in recent years. The argument seems like it is sound and is based upon the Greek term [teleo] which can be translated as "paid". This is a fact, and as a fact it cannot be ignored.
  1. “In the Greek, Christ’s cry from the cross, “It is finished!” is an accounting term.” What we need to realize is that another important fact is conveniently ignored in this statement which is that the same word can mean finished, complete, accomplished, fulfilled, and to bring to an end. It is not always an accounting term as is implied by his statement.
  2. Because we have so many different meanings to this singular Greek word, we must look at the context to see which is the preferable translation. It is extremely doubtful that Jesus uttered this statement in an effort to apply any and all meanings of this one word to His death. If this is the case, then we must ask why no reputable translation of the Bible inserts “Paid in full” in place of “It is finished”?
A. The first reason is that the context determines the meaning of the word used in this passage. The obvious contextual translation is “It is finished,” or accomplished/complete. His work on the cross on behalf of man has come to an end. To say “paid in full” would deviate from the direction the context is leading us. It is also significant to ask why those in the Apostolic Church, who read the Greek and were close to those who were taught by the disciples never seem to have pressed this interpretation into play. The reason should be obvious, such an idea of atonement never crossed their minds because the Apostles never taught this doctrine!

B. The context uses the same term twice; once in verse 28, and the one in question in verse 30. Tetelestai in verse 28 is, "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, (tetelestai) that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith…"This sets the meaning of “it is finished” (tetelestai) in verse 30. Jesus is confirming in His own words what was accomplished. If the meaning in verse 28 is “accomplished, finished, completed,” it makes little or no sense to deviate from its purposeful meaning of “accomplished, finished, complete,” in verse 30. If we say verse 30 must mean “paid in full,” then verse 28 must have the same meaning, for it is talking about the same thing. Observe the awkwardness if this approach, “After this, Jesus knowing that all things were paid in full, (tetelestai) that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith…”“he said, paid in full.” (tetelestai). If this were not awkward enough, note that verse 28 specifically states, “that the scripture might be fulfilled.” Not once does the Scripture speak of the Cross being a payment, so it is impossible that verse 28, and consequently verse 30 can be translated that way and be true to a fulfillment of Scripture!

C. The most important reason is that there is no Biblical warrant to make such an assertion. There are no passages in the entire Bible that states that anything was paid for on the cross! The Bible never suggests that anyone was paid any amount, or if they were, whom it was that was paid. The entire Old Testament alludes to reconciliation through sacrifice, but never once does it make any reference reconciliation by a payment of an account. The New Testament makes references to the sacrificial system and to the judicial system, but never, not even once does it state that anything or anyone was ever paid. There are no parallel passages that would justify imposing such a translation on this passage! Any translator of the Bible that did not want to be laughed out of a job would ever insist on such a wild and unwarranted assertion that it should be translated “paid in full” as is evidenced in every translation that has ever received the acceptance of scholars and the believing public.

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D. There is a serious lack of any linguistic history for the argument that the meaning is “paid in full.” Such a translation has been missed by the greatest commentators and linguists of the past 2000 years if this is true! It would not surprise me that we cannot find such a translation before 16th century since the Penal Substitution Theory had not been invented yet. But it is astonishing that I cannot find any evidence or suggestion for this translation until the late 1900’s; the last 50 years! If such a translation were viable, a credible expositor would have seized the opportunity to support the interpretation of “paid in full” long before now!

E. I conclude that the reason for the suggestion this should be translated “paid in full” does not come from an altruistic motive to faithfully bring forth the meaning of the Bible, but it is brought to our attention in order to salvage a THEORY that cannot be supported by the context of Biblical language.

eternalsecurity.us/it_is_finished.htm

That is for three words in a huge tome. The above is *one *person’s theory of what those words mean, or perhaps what those words *don’t *mean. Is he correct?

I can post other links if you like or you can easily do a Google search.

So, again, I ask the question I asked before. How do we know whose interpretation is correct? Surely there is only one correct interpretation.
 
ExtraBiblical thought has existed ever since God created the Bible.
As another poster has pointed out, God did not create the Bible, although He certainly created the papyrus, ink, the hands that held the quills, and the minds that the Holy Spirit guided.
The words written in the Bible, which predates all you have quoted and supersedes all other thought, states clearly and simply:
“We have been set free because of what Christ has done. Through his blood our sins have been forgiven.” Ephesians 1:7
I believe that some bibles contain a word that does not predate what has been quoted - it is the word “alone.” But as for the passage you have chosen, what did Christ do to set us free? What does “through His blood” mean? If our sins have been forgiven does that mean that the consequences of our sins no longer exist? By “our sins” does it mean future sins, too? Or is it just past sins? Who is “us?” Christians? Or everyone? Those who have been baptised using the Trinitarian formula? Or those who have been baptised without it? What about those who haven’t been completely covered with water during their baptism?

The words in the Bible do not supersede all other thought for certainly God thinks still and what He thinks now is as important as what is written in the Bible. Or are you saying that the Holy Spirit guided the authors (or writers) of the Bible and then God became mute and has remained mute ever since and never thought another thought after that last word was written in the Bible (and I mean before Luther added another word)?

One final thought: what does this have to do with the Blessed Virgin? I just realized this thread is way off-topic and I haven’t helped matters.:eek:😦

Could we please get back to the original topic?
 
Could we please get back to discussing the Blessed Virgin? That’s what this thread is about.
 
It is Dogma not Doctrine.
Would you please clarify? I know that the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary into Heaven are dogma. But I’m not clear about any other dogma concerning Mary. In fact, I’m not very clear on the difference between dogma and doctrine, although I have the feeling that dogma is somehow “stronger” (I hope that makes sense).
 
What if Jesus appeared to you tonight and told you something? Would you tell Him that if it isn’t it the bible it you’re not going to pay attention to it? It is indeed true that the bible is God’s word. But it is not the only place where God’s word appears. Remember the end of the gospel of Luke?
Not every mathematical equation is found in math text books. But the rules are the rules. No matter how advanced/ proficient a person becomes in the field of mathematics. The rules in the text must be obeyed … or the result is just wrong.
The Bible is a description of how to please God. It gives both very specific directions as well as general principles. Jesus would never contradict himself. He, through the Holy Spirit, dictated every single word in the Bible. If Jesus appeared to me and told me something… It would perfectly agree with the principles that are already written in the Bible. Jesus said… In the Bible… “My sheep know my voice.” If someone appeared to me and told me something that did not agree perfectly with the principles written down in the Bible … then I would know that this person is an impostor.
… Jesus and the Holy Spirit talk to me all the time. I know God’s voice extremely well. I have studied and learned the principles written down by Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection … Who took Jesus at his word … and found a deep intimate relationship with our Blessed savior. I have the same kind of amazing relationship with God that Brother Lawrence described. I have done what The Holy Spirit said to do many times and seen people healed instantly of terrible diseases.
God does new things all of the time … But he always follows the principles in the Bible and never ever goes against the truth in the Bible.
 
Originally Posted by 1voice
The Mormons that I have had conversations with say exactly the same thing word for word.
Notice however, that they don’t preach that your church is the early Church that went apostate.
Thats off topic… 😉

My point is that the Word of God, written in the Bible, is the plumb line from which all other thoughts and actions must be measured. If a teaching does not agree with the Bible, the expressed/ written word of God … Then it is cannot be correct.

Example:
The scripture states clearly and simply…
“We have been set free because of what Christ has done. Through his blood our sins have been forgiven.” Ephesians 1:7

Where does the scripture clearly and simply state…
“O Mother of God! If I place my confidence in thee I shall be saved…for being thy client is a certainty of salvation…”
Link: #1
 
Originally Posted by 1voice
The Mormons that I have had conversations with say exactly the same thing word for word.

Thats off topic… 😉

My point is that the Word of God, written in the Bible, is the plumb line from which all other thoughts and actions must be measured. If a teaching does not agree with the Bible, the expressed/ written word of God … Then it is cannot be correct.

Example:
The scripture states clearly and simply…
“We have been set free because of what Christ has done. Through his blood our sins have been forgiven.” Ephesians 1:7

Where does the scripture clearly and simply state…
“O Mother of God! If I place my confidence in thee I shall be saved…for being thy client is a certainty of salvation…”
Link: #1
Ephesians 1:7 in your understanding is to be understood as exactly how?

Whats does all generations shall call me Blessed…mean to you?

Pretty much the point made above, there is understanding, then there is unanimous understanding which literally existed in the Apostolic Churchs of Revelation.

Then there’s the last century slang which became so far off track it needs GPS to relocate the Truth.

So then the check and balance becomes not just what the Catholic C has taught for 2000 years but yet other Apostolic Churchs also such as the Armenian etc. For example no mass communication existed in this period we are talking. The Armenian Church was so distant it didn’t attend nor know the 4th Council even took place. Yet when you compare their liturgy and teaching the similarity is striking. Coincidence? No there’s a real history which weaves through time in the Apostolic Churchs.

There comes a point when one must concede Truth which often comes through this journey of knowledge through History. When we find everyone thought the same from far reaching areas the Apostles reached. Then we can be assured their teaching were consistant with Historic Facts which often they correspond by elaborating exactly the same which bring a familiar consistancy to the understanding of scripture.

So too this truth resides in Mary.

Peace
 
Not every mathematical equation is found in math text books. But the rules are the rules. No matter how advanced/ proficient a person becomes in the field of mathematics. The rules in the text must be obeyed … or the result is just wrong.
The Bible is a description of how to please God. It gives both very specific directions as well as general principles. Jesus would never contradict himself. He, through the Holy Spirit, dictated every single word in the Bible. If Jesus appeared to me and told me something… It would perfectly agree with the principles that are already written in the Bible. Jesus said… In the Bible… “My sheep know my voice.” If someone appeared to me and told me something that did not agree perfectly with the principles written down in the Bible … then I would know that this person is an impostor.
… Jesus and the Holy Spirit talk to me all the time. I know God’s voice extremely well. I have studied and learned the principles written down by Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection … Who took Jesus at his word … and found a deep intimate relationship with our Blessed savior. I have the same kind of amazing relationship with God that Brother Lawrence described. I have done what The Holy Spirit said to do many times and seen people healed instantly of terrible diseases.
God does new things all of the time … But he always follows the principles in the Bible and never ever goes against the truth in the Bible.
But we’re not discussing mathematical equations. Please, that is changing the subject and we are really off-topic here - unless you can relate what you have said in some way to the BLESSED VIRGIN, please start a new thread. You pointed out that another poster was off-topic. In all charity, I am pointing the same out to you (and I admit that I am guilty of it in this thread; in fact, I completely forgot what this thread was about and that can’t be good). 😦

I’ve recently found an amazing love, respect, and admiration for Mary. I would like to discuss her using the parameters stated in the OP and the title of this thread. Please?
 
But we’re not discussing mathematical equations. Please, that is changing the subject and we are really off-topic here - unless you can relate what you have said in some way to the BLESSED VIRGIN, please start a new thread. You pointed out that another poster was off-topic. In all charity, I am pointing the same out to you (and I admit that I am guilty of it in this thread; in fact, I completely forgot what this thread was about and that can’t be good). 😦

I’ve recently found an amazing love, respect, and admiration for Mary. I would like to discuss her using the parameters stated in the OP and the title of this thread. Please?
Here ya go. All the Dogmae concerning Mary are from the faithful. They are the one thing you can be certain came out of the peoples devotion and Tradition. Mary is fully human and participated explicitly in our salvation by and through the incarnation. She is also held as the perfect person in that had she listened to the scholars of her time instead of saying YES to God she would not have participated. Little surprise that the Bishops opposed the Ex Cathedra promulgations.

Being Irish I have no doubt about the power of one’s mother.
 
Here ya go. All the Dogmae concerning Mary are from the faithful. They are the one thing you can be certain came out of the peoples devotion and Tradition. Mary is fully human and participated explicitly in our salvation by and through the incarnation. She is also held as the perfect person in that had she listened to the scholars of her time instead of saying YES to God she would not have participated. Little surprise that the Bishops opposed the Ex Cathedra promulgations.
I’ve been thinking a lot about Mary. The Bible is silent about most of her actions and so I wonder about what her life as she was growing up was like. She must have been tempted (even Jesus was tempted) but she never sinned. Never. For awhile I thought that perhaps the cards had been stacked in her favor as she was conceived without Original Sin. But she still had free will and could have told Gabriel “no.” She was still really a child or a very young woman but her acceptance of her role, knowing that she could legally be killed for adultery, shows extreme courage. The words of the Magnificat show her wisdom - how many 13 year-olds say things like Mary said? She is the one who told Jesus to perform His first miracle and even though He told her that His time had not yet come, He obeyed her! His love for her is such an inspiration to me. He honored her, as was His duty under the Ten Commandments and to be Christ-like we should honor her, too.

She loves us, she prays for us, she *is *a Co-Redeemer as she helps us achieve Heaven if we ask her. She helps us even if we don’t ask because she is the Ark of the Covenant (I know this is greatly over-simplified).

Would you please clarify the last sentence of your quote as posted above? I don’t know anything about this. Thanks. 🙂
Being Irish I have no doubt about the power of one’s mother.
😃
 
She loves us, she prays for us, she *is *a Co-Redeemer as she helps us achieve Heaven if we ask her. She helps us even if we don’t ask because she is the Ark of the Covenant (I know this is greatly over-simplified).

Would you please clarify the last sentence of your quote as posted above? I don’t know anything about this. Thanks. 🙂

😃

It is just a generalization based upon prejudices concerning Irish men, it is of no theological significance at all.
 
Well not in its construct. All Legalism is in opposition to the Christ and Mary stands opposed to Legalism. (fundamentalism)
 
It is just a generalization based upon prejudices concerning Irish men, it is of no theological significance at all.
Oh dear. I am so sorry. I meant the last sentence in the first part of the quote. I understood the second part. :o

How embarrassing! 😦

Here is the sentence I didn’t understand:

Little surprise that the Bishops opposed the Ex Cathedra promulgations.

Sorry. 😦
 
While there are passages of Scripture that can have different applications, there is only one interpretation.

The same way you determine the correctness of any other writing. The Holy Spirit does not speak in Scripture in a mystical language that requires decoding. The Scriptures follow the same rule of grammar, context, etc. that any other work does. If you can read a work of non-fiction and understand what it says, why is the same not true of Scripture?

What you just said to me in what I quoted did not require infallible interpretation.
Here are a few lines from a work of fiction (poetry), written in English:

“The wind was a torrent of darkness among the gusty trees.
The moon was a ghostly galleon tossed among cloudy seas.”

The Highwayman by Alfred Noyes, English poet]

Now what does that mean? Will everyone agree? Are there metaphors or should it be taken literally? What is a “torrent of darkness?” How can the moon be a “ghostly galleon?” A galleon is a ship; the moon is a naturally formed satellite that rotates the earth.

This is much, much easier to understand than “It is finished” as written in the Bible.
 
To a Protestant or generic “Christian”, how would the “expressed” differ from the “written” word of God?
Ya know. i asked my generic Lord and Savior… You know the one … Jesus the Christ … The one we all celebrate this Sunday in such a special generic way … and … he just laughed!! I couldnt get a straigh answer out of him … He wouldnt stop laughing… Generic! OMG !!!

What a hoot!!!

BTW … Happy Generic Easter!!
 
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