The Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation

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Madaglan said:
The innocence of the Catholic hierarchy, especially the Croatian hierarchy, is not non-issue, especially if the Catholic hierarchy acquiesced in the baptisms of their hereditary enemies, the Serbs–performed by Catholic chaplains provided the Ustashi by the Catholic hierarchy. If the Catholic hierarchy did agree to the baptisms of Orthodox, I imagine that it was more out of spite than in the genuine theological concern that they must be baptized to become Catholic. So yes, an abuse, but nonetheless a reality.
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It is indeed a non-issue, or at least a seperate one.

Why is this so difficult to accede? That what is nonetheless a reality is and was an abuse, even if done by officials?

If the Catholic hierachy in a nation does agree to something so eggregiously in error, that doesn’t - no pun intended - baptize and validate the error or abuse. That puts them in opposition to what has been clearly taught.

The French hierarchs who enthusasitically embraced Gallicanism in its more militant forms couldn’t be then turned to as demonstrations or evidence that their error was just another legitimate line of thinking or school of thought.
I don’t claim to know everything about the abuses. I wasn’t there. Were you?
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What do you think? Aside from rhetorical flourish, can this be undertsoond to be in anyway related?
 
Frank_J said:
I was chrismation back in Jan. 7, 2001 by my priest Fr John. I was told that I would have to do it because the way the RC Baptize me. I was told it was lacking and I need to receive my chrismation to fill in the blanks if you know what I mean.
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Why don’t you share what you mean, lest we fall into conjecture over what you mean.
 
Why is this so difficult to accede? That what is nonetheless a reality is and was an abuse, even if done by officials?
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I did accede that.
If the Catholic hierachy in a nation does agree to something so eggregiously in error, that doesn’t - no pun intended - baptize and validate the error or abuse. That puts them in opposition to what has been clearly taught.
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I agree with the first half. The second half mostly but not entirely. I would only add that at times the Roman Catholic Church feels the need to clarify that which may not have been so clear in the past and therefore open to abuse.
 
Hello Frank,
I to was a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy. My back ground was Roman Catholic and I was drawn to the faith by hearing it on the radio in the mid-1980’s.

I was chrismation back in Jan. 7, 2001 by my priest Fr John. I was told that I would have to do it because the way the RC Baptize me. I was told it was lacking and I need to receive my chrismation to fill in the blanks if you know what I mean.
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When I was a Roman Catholic I was highly offended by the thought that Orthodox would Confirm me all over again. Coming from a Traditionalist RC background I thought that it was playing games with the Holy Spirit.

One of several reasons I elected to become Byzantine Catholic when the opportunity arose. It seemed like the best of both worlds.

Then I came to understand that the Orthodox view Chrismation as a repeatable sacrament (for more or less extreme cases), and that it was a useful ‘healing’ sacrament that can make up for deficiencies, I had been up to that point stuck on an RC understanding that was not universally accepted.

After a long period of discernment (which covered many issues), I decided to become Orthodox. To my surprise I was to be accepted though confession and profession of Faith 🙂 into the OCA (perhaps because I was coming through the BCC, but I’m not sure), but the other catechumans were to be Chrismated due to their Protestant backgrounds. I was surprised (even delighted) by the exception, but didn’t like the idea of being received in a different way than the others, who had become my friends (and in a way, family).

I was Chrismated in December of 2005.

Michael
 
HI Michael,

I to came from a very Traditionalist RC background too. I was part of the Traditionalists movement back I the 1995. The reason for my leaving the Catholic was the Novus Ordo of Pope Paul VI was not for me. I use to attend the Latin Tridentine Mass in Boston, MA… I left the RC Church because the Novus Ordo Nun insulted me at one time when I when into her Church. I was introduced as a member of one of the Latin Mass Catholic at Holy Trinity German Catholic. That set he off when she found out. That is what made me leave the RC Church for good.

I started to be drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy for some reason and started the walk in that directions. I feel that it was the best thing to happen to me in the longest time.

Coming for a Sicilian back ground I always wondered why I did something my mothre would teach me when I was young. She told the true way to make the sign of the cross was to put the first three fingers together and fold down the last two. It turns out that Sicliy was at one time an Orthodox Christian Country some 500 years ago if I am correct. Maybe I was drawn the my family old faith.

My parish is an OCA Church and when I became part of the our Church I was told that my baptism in the RC Church was deficient
because of the way I was baptize Latin Church.

Maybe you condition is different then my case, I’m not sure. I don’t know mabe because you were coming through the BCC made you different from me.

I like the Byzantine culture and am very attach to it now. My priest Fr John show me and gave me a Prayer Rope and told me with would be great way to pray the Jesus Prayer. I found it better then the RC Rosary. With all the Our Father’s, Hail Mary’s and the glory be’s. Prayer Rope much better.

I spoken to uniate ArchDeacon and I asked him if he used the RC Rosary and he said no. He said that Eastern Rite Catholic don’t use it because it there Culture. I not sure if the uniate you were part of used it or not? I not to up in Eastern Rite Catholic.

I serve at my Church as an Acolyte and I planing to be an Subdeacon maybe in my future. I’ve been talking to my parish priest about it and he has given me a book on the Subdeacon Manual on how to serve a Divine Liturgy with a Bishop. Bishop Nikon has traveled to my parish a few time and I have served with him and the Deacons that travel with him to each parish he visits.

We can chat more if you like about my travels in Orthodoxy.

GOD bless you my brother.

Frank J.
 
Hello Madaglan,

I was told that Roman Catholic Baptism are baptism are view as deficient by the Eastern Orthodox Church. RC don’t place baby into water to baptize they sprinkle. I was not rebaptize just received Chrismation and profession of faith.

Orthodox also view Chrismation as a repeatable sacrament.

Let’s use this for example, say that I left Orthodox Christian faith to be come Muslim and decided to return to the fold I would have to become receive Chrismation as a repeatable sacrament.

Let’s use this for second example; If I were to leave for the Roman Catholic and then repent and return to Orthodoxy I would not have to receive Chrismation all I would have to do is repent of what I did and make profession of faith.

I hope this is of some help to you.

GOD bless you.

Frank J.
 
Frank,

Thank you for your information. I like it how your phrase it: “If you repent and return to Orthodoxy.” 🙂
 
ASimpleSinner said:
If the Catholic hierachy in a nation does agree to something so eggregiously in error, that doesn’t - no pun intended - baptize and validate the error or abuse. That puts them in opposition to what has been clearly taught.
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Isn’t it a fact that Catholic priests did rebaptise Serbs in Croatia? And was this approved by Archbishop Stepinac, who is now up for Sainthood?
 
Hi bobzill,

You asked the question about the action of Catholic Priest in that part of the world during World War II. I will tell you what was shown to me by a Catholic Nun before my converting to Orthodoxy back around late 1989 or early 1990’s. I also have picture and films showing Catholic Nuns marching Cathollic dress in Uniforms. It was not German type of Uniforms, more in line with the Italian government style if you know what I mean???

I don’t want to have Catholic answers flip the wig so I do us it. Last time I used it to talk about religion they blow there top on it and almost bar me from using it. I put it this way that there problem.

First I want to say that I serve at the Altar with my priest as an Acolyte. So that you will know that I will not lie to you.

During World War II when that country was taken over my Germany. The Catholic goverment started to round up of Serbian Orthodox Christian and told that they must conver to die. Many did convert and many die. The film show by people that were there what they did to the Serbians. Men, women and Children were push of the mountain.

You can find this information easy just look up of the Apparitions of Mary happening in Bosnia back in by mid 1990’s before the war that broke up the country like it is now.

What could I say about what happen to the people that were killed. I use to work with people from Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia back around late 1999. I so first hand anger between the people I listed. I had to worked all of the people on my shift.

One Bosnian man stabbed a guy whose parents were of a mix-marriage the wife was Muslim and the husband was Christian.

So you could say I so the war up close. The Catholic hated the Serbians Muslims hate Orthodox Christians and the Orthodox Christians did not care much for the Catholics also.

I look at some of the pictures that were taken by those who committed the war crimes and it would turn your Stomach if you look a the pictures. Sorry for be to up front with the story.

My wife is not a Christian and I told her that everyone has done things to the other group what ever one you want to talk about.

In one film I so on Bosnian the Muslim they were dress in German Uniforms with ss marking on them. I have film on them and there action in that part of the world during WWII.

Easy to find what I covered on many of my topics.

I hope this has answer your question and has made you understand what the lives of these people are like.

Have a great day.

Frank J.
 
bobzills said:
Isn’t it a fact that Catholic priests did rebaptise Serbs in Croatia? And was this approved by Archbishop Stepinac, who is now up for Sainthood?
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***And heres Bob! *** (funny, I don’t recall mentioning the crusades or annulments…)

And if they did what does that prove or affirm about what the Catholic Church teaches?

John J. Geoghan homosexually molested adolescent boys… What does that prove? What can we garner from that abuse?

If you want to have a referenedum on Blessed Aloysius Stepinac, start a new thread.

Again for your benifit, If the Catholic hierachy in a nation does agree to something so eggregiously in error, that doesn’t - no pun intended - baptize and validate the error or abuse. That puts them in opposition to what has been clearly taught.
 
ASimpleSinner said:
***And heres Bob! *** (funny, I don’t recall mentioning the crusades or annulments…)

And if they did what does that prove or affirm about what the Catholic Church teaches?

John J. Geoghan homosexually molested adolescent boys… What does that prove? What can we garner from that abuse?

If you want to have a referenedum on Blessed Aloysius Stepinac, start a new thread.

Again for your benifit, If the Catholic hierachy in a nation does agree to something so eggregiously in error, that doesn’t - no pun intended - baptize and validate the error or abuse. That puts them in opposition to what has been clearly taught.
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But if the Catholic hierarchy in question is up for sainthood, doesn’t that imply something about his actions?
 
bobzills and ASimpleSinner,

I didn’t say what the Catholic Church was right or wrong. I know and understand the Catholic views because I am an ex-Roman Catholic. What was done in the name of the Catholic was evil and wrong.

What does this tell me and other Orthodox Christians like myself about the Catholic. I aways said do not listen to what they say watch what they do. Meaning that what is believe is how they will act. The Catholic Church can say all of the Pius words but if they ae not in teh heart then it is void.

I have the Chance to see what the Catholic Church ha done and I say how can this be of GOD???

Remember that the Catholic Church wants to make Mother Theresa a saint and your Church. Now it is coming out that she may have not really believed in GOD. What is this tell me??? How can a Catholic Nun do what she did in life and she did very nice things for people by helping them. Yet think that there is no GOD.

If the Catholic Church makes her a saint it will be putting a shine on a sneaker, much like it did for your so called saint Archbishop Stepinac.

I’m still looking at information on European history and I will be looking up this saint of yours, this Archbishop Stepinac. If this what he did then what would be your view of this so called saint Stepinac???

I see the Catholic choice of saint defective lately. You can find many error is Catholic if you look. If one doesn’t want something found you don’t write something down.

I look into the Catholic to see what I could find and I look very closely at this doc. MEDIATOR DEI I look up what the Catholic said about the Liturgy of the Catholic Church. In the doc. the Pope Puis XXII spoke what would happen if the Catholic Church ever turn the Altar around and make a table of it. Read for youself here is the vatican.va/ web site. In the doc it said that if the Catholic were to turn the Altar around it would move away from the straying from the truth. Not my words; they are the words of Pope Puis XXII in the doc MEDIATOR DEI. I showed this doc to a Catholic Nun and she reacted to it be getting up and walking into the other room to get another Nun and show her.

I didn’t do that to hurt her but show her that even the Roman Church can error just like the rest of us. I see the Latin Nun as good friend and we chat all the time. I have a letter on desktop that is just about readly to send to her. We chat about your Church and about my religion and what is happening in world today. I see that it is important to for people to talk to others so misinderstnding to happen here.

This to can happen here when it comes to people killing in the name of GOD. We Orthodox Christians live in this country and we are a small group. What if people started to trun against us here in America. It could happen. Remember they said it could happen in Germany back in the 1940’s. Anything can happen that is why dialog is need to make people understand the difference others.

Some people have said that Pope Puis XXII didn’t try to stop Hitler in order to save Jews. The Vatican has done some good in this world too. Many Jews were saved by Catholic Priest and Nuns during the time German controled Roman back in the Mid-1940’s
many were saved from be kill by Hitler.

You will find many good and evil people in history. The Catholic Church is not error free; we are very fellable people and the Church is human too.

History is open to all to look at and see what was done in the name of GOD.

When I look at what the Catholic Church has done in the name of GOD I feel very embarrassed as a former Catholic. If you are looking for this remark here it is. No one should be forced to follow a religion they don’t believe in.

I just wanted to say this so that you would see what I see and think.

Got to go will chat more.

Frank J.
 
Actually, I think that before Vatican II, many non-Catholics were conditionally baptised when entering the Catholic Church. So the Church at that time did not unconditionally recognise the baptism of non-Catholics in a non-Catholic Church.
 
Originally Posted by Frank J:
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Now it is coming out that she may have not really believed in GOD.
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I haven’t heard of this and I would be interested in knowing where you heard it. I have heard of Mother Theresa’s spiritual dryness. I remember reading in Introduction to Christianity that St. Therese the Little Flower suffered from the thoughts of atheism. Perhaps a similar thing with Mother Theresa of Calcutta?
 
Hi Madaglan,

I heard about and went over to Barns and Noble to read some of the passages in the book on her life as a Nun.

On the statement on St. Theresa the Little flower I never heard that one before.

The only way to know is to read the book on Mother Theresa.

Atheism is a person that hate GOD in my view plus they see man is the center not GOD.

Even at my lows point in my life I never loss my belief in GOD.

GOD bless you.

Frank J.
 
Originally Posted by bobzillS:
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Actually, I think that before Vatican II, many non-Catholics were conditionally baptised when entering the Catholic Church. So the Church at that time did not unconditionally recognise the baptism of non-Catholics in a non-Catholic Church.
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Interesting point. There have been some conditional baptisms after Vatican II as well. However, I believe that conditional language is actually used in the rite.
 
Originally Posted by Frank J:
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On the statement on St. Theresa the Little flower I never heard that one before.
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Yes, I hadn’t either until I read the book. Supposedly, these words were kept from the general public by the sisters who thought that they might be mis-received. I believe there may be a footnote in the book. In any case, it’s in* Introduction to Christianity*, by then Joseph Ratzinger. Unless I am mistaken, the book and its wide approval in Catholic circles was one reason why Ratzinger was made bishop.
 
Madaglan,

That is true in case were the baptism could not be found to have been done correctly or could not be proven.

Frank J.
 
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