The Orthodox Church

[spoiltvictorian]

Look, I admittedly don’t know as much about the Orthodox Church as those of you in it. I especially am not sure where to turn to understand the Orthodox “position” on Western doctrines which the Orthodox do not declare Canon, but might still believe and practice.

But I read things like orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx

"On the other hand, the Greeks teach of one eternal fire alone, understanding that the temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they for a time depart into a place of darkness and sorrow, are punished by being deprived of the Divine light, and are purified—that is, liberated from this place of darkness and woe—by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity, and not by fire. The Greeks also believe, that until the union of the souls to the bodies, as the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss. "

or en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory#Eastern_Orthodox_Church

*"Eastern Orthodox theology does not generally describe the situation of the dead as involving suffering or fire, although it nevertheless describes it as a “direful condition”.[52] The souls of the righteous dead are in light and rest, with a foretaste of eternal happiness; but the souls of the wicked are in a state the reverse of this. Among the latter, such souls as have departed with faith, but “without having had time to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance…, may be aided towards the attainment of a blessed resurrection [at the end of time] by prayers offered in their behalf, especially those offered in union with the oblation of the bloodless sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ, and by works of mercy done in faith for their memory.”[53]

The state in which souls undergo this experience is often referred to as “Hades”.[54]"*

It sounds to me that Orthodox believe in a purification or cleansing of our remaining sinful nature after death, before entering Heaven. That is essentially purgatory.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

I have Orthodox friends who dispute that. For instance, a friend in the Serbian Orthodox Church once got very upset when someone suggested that he and the people in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church nearby were members of the same church.

I leave it to you to decide whether or not you think that’s “cute”. He didn’t, and I don’t.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Is that supposed to be a ‘cute’ question? There is only one.

I have Orthodox friends who dispute that. For instance, a friend in the Serbian Orthodox Church once got very upset when someone suggested that he and the people in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church nearby were members of the same church.

I leave it to you to decide whether or not you think that’s “cute”. He didn’t, and I don’t.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Mickey]

I have Orthodox friends who dispute that. For instance, a friend in the Serbian Orthodox Church once got very upset when someone suggested that he and the people in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church nearby were members of the same church.

I leave it to you to decide whether or not you think that’s “cute”. He didn’t, and I don’t.

Your friend is wrong. Would you like me to start telling what I hear Roman Catholics say about their Church----and then try to pawn it off as the truth?

Please stop trying to be “cute”.

 

[Harpazo]

I have Orthodox friends who dispute that. For instance, a friend in the Serbian Orthodox Church once got very upset when someone suggested that he and the people in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church nearby were members of the same church.

I leave it to you to decide whether or not you think that’s “cute”. He didn’t, and I don’t.

Blessings,

Gerry

That’s a shame. I can’t justify what your friend said, but I will say that there are sinners in every church (I am one of them!). Of those sinners there are those who are misinformed and who choose to stay ignorant. Conversely, I’m sure you know there are those in the Catholic Church that do not “tow the party line” so to speak in regards to laws of the church. It would be superfluous for me to assume that Catholics believe in contraception just because most Catholics at my former parishes did.

I think some fraternal correction is in line for your friend.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Wesley7]

OK, so the purpose of this thread is what?

To promote discussion about the Orthodox Church.

 

[josie_L]

Your friend is wrong. Would you like me to start telling what I hear Roman Catholics say about their Church----and then try to pawn it off as the truth?

Please stop trying to be “cute”.

I had an Armenian Orthodox say the same thing to me, and I say this because I wonder if there are more like her.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

I had an Armenian Orthodox say the same thing to me, and I say this because I wonder if there are more like her.

That’s because the Armenian Apostolic Church (Armenian Orthodox) is not part of the “Orthodox Church” (Eastern Orthodox). It’s what is called “Oriental Orthodox”, along with the Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, etc. Therefore, your friend isn’t part of the same church as the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Orthodox Church in America, etc.

The Orthodox Church is comprised of various churches, just like the Catholic Church, that are all in communion with each other. Maybe there are some that get caught up in the whole “ethnic” thing, but officially, all Eastern Orthodox Churches are in communion with each other, making the “Orthodox Church”.

Someone please correct my understanding if its wrong.

 

[josie_L]

That’s because the Armenian Apostolic Church (Armenian Orthodox) is not part of the “Orthodox Church” (Eastern Orthodox). It’s what is called “Oriental Orthodox”, along with the Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, etc. Therefore, your friend isn’t part of the same church as the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Orthodox Church in America, etc.

The Orthodox Church is comprised of various churches, just like the Catholic Church, that are all in communion with each other. Maybe there are some that get caught up in the whole “ethnic” thing, but officially, all Eastern Orthodox Churches are in communion with each other, making the “Orthodox Church”.

Someone please correct my understanding if its wrong.

But that’s the problem she made no clarifications. And the Catholic Church is not comprised of various churches but rather various rites in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

But that’s the problem she made no clarifications. And the Catholic Church is not comprised of various churches but rather various rites in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Well sadly that is her problem if she didn’t clarify. The Oriental Orthodox were in schism early on.

The Catholic Church is composed of 23 “sui iuris” particular churches, the largest of which is the Roman Catholic church (Latin). All are in communion with each other and the Bishop of Rome.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Look, I admittedly don’t know as much about the Orthodox Church as those of you in it. I especially am not sure where to turn to understand the Orthodox “position” on Western doctrines which the Orthodox do not declare Canon, but might still believe and practice.

Well first off…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory#Eastern_Orthodox_Church

DO NOT QUOTE WIKIPEDIA!!!

Wikipedia should be officially banned as a source for research or argumentation. It’s a good starting point for research (just skip the article and go to the sources) but it’s not a good place for sincere study. To give one example, someone in the Eastern Catholic forums quoted a wikipedia article that stated the Orthodox Church accepts eight ecumenical councils. This is completely and utterly incorrect: they accept seven. You might as well say that there are five gospels in the Christian Bible. Actually…another Wikipedia article DOES say that…

But I read things like orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx

"On the other hand, the Greeks teach of one eternal fire alone, understanding that the temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they for a time depart into a place of darkness and sorrow, are punished by being deprived of the Divine light, and are purified—that is, liberated from this place of darkness and woe—by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity, and not by fire. The Greeks also believe, that until the union of the souls to the bodies, as the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss. "

It sounds to me that Orthodox believe in a purification or cleansing of our remaining sinful nature after death, before entering Heaven. That is essentially purgatory.

Actually, that’s a misunderstanding of the Orthodox teaching regarding the afterlife. The dead are given a taste of their punishment/reward, but still remain “asleep” until the second coming of Christ. As the very section you quoted says, “the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss.” We pray for the dead to ask for their forgiveness - but whether or not they are forgiven we do not know. We pray only because we are commanded by God to be compassionate, and so we show compassion for those who have departed from us. Whether or not God forgives them after death is up to God’s judgment. There are no teachings such as the indulgences of Luther’s time where someone was supposedly guaranteed relief from punishment if the living did certain deeds, like a legalistic game of shopping for salvation.

The fact is we do not believe in Purgatory, as I am attempting to demonstrate in this post. The article you quoted from the Orthodox Christian Information Center even mentions that no one is “purified” by “fire,” but rather through prays and lamentations a departed one might be given some relief. There is no purification going on, but rather a remission of sins through intercession and prayer rather than purification. Hell is a prison and not a hospital, but through the mercy of God someone may be relieved of their punishment.

Also, regarding the “one eternal fire” mentioned in the article, this again refers to the Orthodox concept of the afterlife, which teaches that fire does not exist solely in hell - rather, a river of fire comes forth from the throne of God and runs through both Paradise and Hell. In Hell this fire causes torment to demons and the wicked, but in Paradise it gives the saved a great joy - this is because the fire is nothing more than God’s love. To those who despise God in this life, they will despise God all the more in His kingdom; to those who love God more than their life, they will embrace His immaterial fire.

If you’re sincere in studying the Orthodox faith, there are plenty of books on the subject that are worth looking into. Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware has many that are recommended, Clark Carlton has written some addressed to both Catholics and Protestants, among others. And, of course, there’s always the Philokalia and the works of the Greek Fathers.

 

[trophybearer]

That’s because the Armenian Apostolic Church (Armenian Orthodox) is not part of the “Orthodox Church” (Eastern Orthodox). It’s what is called “Oriental Orthodox”, along with the Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, etc. Therefore, your friend isn’t part of the same church as the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Orthodox Church in America, etc.

The Orthodox Church is comprised of various churches, just like the Catholic Church, that are all in communion with each other. Maybe there are some that get caught up in the whole “ethnic” thing, but officially, all Eastern Orthodox Churches are in communion with each other, making the “Orthodox Church”.

Someone please correct my understanding if its wrong.

Thank you for knowing what you’re talking about and sharing it with others. Sincerely!

 

[josie_L]

Well sadly that is her problem if she didn’t clarify. The Oriental Orthodox were in schism early on.

The Catholic Church is composed of 23 “sui iuris” particular churches, the largest of which is the Roman Catholic church (Latin). All are in communion with each other and the Bishop of Rome.

Well, yes they are in communion with each other but “they are all entrusted to the pastoral government of the Roman pontiff, the divinely appointed successor of St. Peter in the Primacy.”

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Thank you for knowing what you’re talking about and sharing it with others. Sincerely!

No problem and thank you! I’m really interested in Orthodoxy, so I’ve read about it (and attended Divine Liturgy and Vigil/Vespers) for a few years now.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Well, yes they are in communion with each other but “they are all entrusted to the pastoral government of the Roman pontiff, the divinely appointed successor of St. Peter in the Primacy.”

Yes of course. The point was that as the Orthodox Church is comprised of churches like the Antiochian Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Orthodox Church in America, Russian Orthodox Church, etc., the Catholic Church is comprised of churches like the Melkite Catholic Church, Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Church (the largest one), etc. All 23 churches are autonomous, and are in union with each other and the Bishop of Rome. “Rite” tends to refer to liturgical practices, such as the Byzantine Rite, Roman Rite, Syrian Rite, etc. Some people do say “Latin Rite” to refer to the Roman Catholic Church (i.e. the major Western church of the Catholic Church).

 

[josie_L]

Yes of course. The point was that as the Orthodox Church is comprised of churches like the Antiochian Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Orthodox Church in America, Russian Orthodox Church, etc., the Catholic Church is comprised of churches like the Melkite Catholic Church, Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Church (the largest one), etc. All 23 churches are autonomous, and are in union with each other and the Bishop of Rome. “Rite” tends to refer to liturgical practices, such as the Byzantine Rite, Roman Rite, Syrian Rite, etc. Some people do say “Latin Rite” to refer to the Roman Catholic Church (i.e. the major Western church of the Catholic Church).

I believe there is a difference in that the Orthodox definition of Church and/or structuring is different from the Catholic definition and/or structuring of Church, I think they believe in autochephali (a sort of federation of Churches).

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

I believe there is a difference in that the Orthodox definition of Church and/or structuring is different from the Catholic definition and/or structuring of Church, I think they believe in autochephali (a sort of federation of Churches).

This is true. In the Orthodox Church, there are “autocephalous” (self-headed) churches, as well as “autonomous” (self-governed) churches. In contrast, in the Catholic Church, all of the churches are autonomous, since they all fall under the authority of the Pope.

 

[trophybearer]

No problem and thank you! I’m really interested in Orthodoxy, so I’ve read about it (and attended Divine Liturgy and Vigil/Vespers) for a few years now.

Glad to hear that! God bless!

 

[Hesychios]

But that’s the problem she made no clarifications. And the Catholic Church is not comprised of various churches but rather various rites in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Actually, this is not an accurate statement.

In the Eastern Catholic section of CAF, and also at Byzcath, you would be quickly corrected by someone who would tell you that ‘RITES’ is not an accurate term.

They are Churches, each with co-equal dignity and particular set of canons. They are Sui Iuris. In fact, to some people referring to them as rites is an insulting throwback to the days of Praestantia Ritus Latini, a now discredited policy of the pre-Vatican II church.

So there is the Byzantine Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, the Latin Catholic Church, the Syro-Malabar Catholic church and the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (among others).

As you can see, the terminology can be confusing.

For instance, an Eastern Catholic might be thought of by me as part of the Ukrainian Catholic church, and adamantly insist that his own church, the Romanian Catholic church, is a separate church! (This can happen in Chicago.)

Well, yes and no. We know that in the broadest sense they are all ‘Catholic’, but in reality these are institutionally separate organizations.

This in spite of the fact that they are using the same ‘rite’ and profess the same Faith.

This is similar to the situation in Holy Orthodoxy. In the broadest sense they are ‘Orthodox’, sharing a common belief and in communion with each other under God, but institutionally they are separated.

 

[Hesychios]

But that’s the problem she made no clarifications. And the Catholic Church is not comprised of various churches but rather various rites in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Actually, this is not an accurate statement.

In the Eastern Catholic section of CAF, and also at Byzcath, you would be quickly corrected by someone who would tell you that ‘RITES’ is not an accurate term. 1] 2] 3]

They are Churches, each with co-equal dignity and particular set of canons. They are Sui Iuris. In fact, to some people referring to them as rites is an insulting throwback to the days of Praestantia Ritus Latini, a now discredited policy of the pre-Vatican II church.

So there is the Byzantine Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, the Latin Catholic Church, the Syro-Malabar Catholic church and the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (among others).

As you can see, the terminology can be confusing.

For instance (this can happen in Chicago), an Eastern Catholic might be thought of by me or you as part of the Ukrainian Catholic church, and adamantly insist that his own, the Romanian, is a separate church!

Well, yes and no. We know that in reality these are institutionally separate organizations, but in the broadest sense they are all ‘Catholic’.

This is similar to the situation in Holy Orthodoxy. In the broadest sense they are ‘Orthodox’, sharing a common belief and in communion with each other under God, but institutionally they are separated.