The "Orthodox Crisis"

[Errham]

Backstory: The Orthodox Church is seeing astounding numbers of new converts in recent decades. The OCA claims that around half of their members are converts, and the rates among clergy are even higher: The Antiochian Diocese of America claims a clergy convert rate of 75%. It’s true that the number of converts to Catholicism has been growing in recent years, and we there’s quite a number of prominent Catholic converts, but at nowhere near the same rates as the Orthodox have been seeing. While the majority are converts are from Protestantism, there’s quite a significant number of ex-RC’s in there as well.

My question is: Why? And why isn’t Catholicism getting a share of the converts as well? I’ve never really seen a Catholic explanation for the phenomenon, and the majority of Catholics that I’ve asked like to simply pretend that the problem doesn’t exist. The Orthodox, for their part, explain the Protestant phenomenon as one that’s a direct result of the information age, the rise of Protestant movements seeking to return to the ways of the “early Church”, and a general identity crisis arising in Protestantism as part of trend of Protestants seeking to return to their roots. But the roots of Protestantism are in the Western Church, not the Eastern Church. So what gives?

As for the Catholic phenomenon, they explain it as a direct result of Vatican II, and the post-VII identity crisis that we saw arise in many Western Catholics. But I’ve never heard a Catholic reasoning for it. So what exactly would that be?

 

[SAVINGRACE]

My question is: Why? And why isn’t Catholicism getting a share of the converts as well? I’ve never really seen a Catholic explanation for the phenomenon, and the majority of Catholics that I’ve asked like to simply pretend that the problem doesn’t exist. ?

Catholics don’t bother to concern themselves with it because the numbers are not important. No-one I know and certainly not myself really cares about the numbers.

This is not in a popularity contest. Got more important things to worry about like our salvation, learning about the faith and practicing the faith.

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

The question is not the number of adherents to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches (which have remained more or less stable for decades according to most research) but the reason why the mainstream Protestant Churches have effectively collapsed and their members are defecting in droves

 

[ibelongtoyeshua]

Catholics don’t bother to concern themselves with it because the numbers are not important. No-one I know and certainly not myself really cares about the numbers.

This is not in a popularity contest. Got more important things to worry about like our salvation, learning about the faith and practicing the faith.

My friend, this is vitally important. Indeed, it’s important for us to work out our salvation but it is our duty as Catholics, out of love, to do whatever we can to aid others in their fight (and I emphasise the word fight) for salvation also . You’re right, it’s not a popularity contest but we must be failing in some aspect if so many people are leaving for Eastern Orthodoxy.

Last summer, before firmly accepting the validity of the Catholic Church, I was going to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy for the following reasons:
I was disgusted by the sex abuse scandal.
I was sick of constant liturgical abuses and irreverence towards the Holy Eucharist.
I thought the idea of Purgatory was repugnant.
I didn’t like how much emphasis was placed on the Virgin Mary, distracting us from Jesus.
I didn’t like statues in churches.
I didn’t like the Church’s position on contraception.
I truly believed that the West split from the East rather than the other way round.
I believed the Orthodox Church had a greater claim to validity as the Bible was written in their own language and provinces (in reference to the Greek Orthodox Church).
The tip of the iceberg was that I wanted a brand new start, to see Jesus from a different perspective, through the lens of the east rather than that of the West, I was also pretty fed up with the congregation at my church, hypocritical, elderly, immensely ignorant of the teachings of Christianity or a combination of all three.

I looked deeper and found that most of the things I didn’t like about the Catholic Church existed in the Eastern Orthodox too. I love the Eastern Orthodox Church, don’t get me wrong but I found irrefutable evidence from the Church Fathers that allegiance to the successor of Peter was a fundamental aspect of Early Christianity. I now submit to the authority of Rome completely and I thank God that I found the truth.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

My friend, this is vitally important. Indeed, it’s important for us to work out our salvation but it is our duty as Catholics, out of love, to do whatever we can to aid others in their fight (and I emphasise the word fight) for salvation also . You’re right, it’s not a popularity contest but we must be failing in some aspect if so many people are leaving for Eastern Orthodoxy.

Last summer, before firmly accepting the validity of the Catholic Church, I was going to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy for the following reasons:
I was disgusted by the sex abuse scandal.
I was sick of constant liturgical abuses and irreverence towards the Holy Eucharist.
I thought the idea of Purgatory was repugnant.
I didn’t like how much emphasis was placed on the Virgin Mary, distracting us from Jesus.
I didn’t like statues in churches.
I didn’t like the Church’s position on contraception.
I truly believed that the West split from the East rather than the other way round.
I believed the Orthodox Church had a greater claim to validity as the Bible was written in their own language and provinces (in reference to the Greek Orthodox Church).
The tip of the iceberg was that I wanted a brand new start, to see Jesus from a different perspective, through the lens of the east rather than that of the West, I was also pretty fed up with the congregation at my church, hypocritical, elderly, immensely ignorant of the teachings of Christianity or a combination of all three.

I looked deeper and found that most of the things I didn’t like about the Catholic Church existed in the Eastern Orthodox too. I love the Eastern Orthodox Church, don’t get me wrong but I found irrefutable evidence from the Church Fathers that allegiance to the successor of Peter was a fundamental aspect of Early Christianity. I now submit to the authority of Rome completely and I thank God that I found the truth.

That’s great. Welcome Home.

Why worry about numbers? It’s unproductive.

The best way to attract people is to actually LIVE the faith. That will get them asking questions in my experience.

People’s spiritual journey is theirs and theirs alone to work out, I can only be there for non-Catholics who ask about the faith and pray for them and the Church.

The Church will not change to please individuals who want to move on. Get used to it.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I looked deeper and found that most of the things I didn’t like about the Catholic Church existed in the Eastern Orthodox too. I love the Eastern Orthodox Church, don’t get me wrong but I found irrefutable evidence from the Church Fathers that allegiance to the successor of Peter was a fundamental aspect of Early Christianity. I now submit to the authority of Rome completely and I thank God that I found the truth.

Congratulations ^^ Welcome home!

 

[eamonnroma]

I truly believed that the West split from the East rather than the other way round.

From a historical point of view, there is a good case for saying that the West split from the East,

 

[IrishAm]

Welcome home; I think you ask a legitimate and very thoughtful question and would propose that many Protestants have a life-long aversion to Roman Catholicism based on their upbringing. Even the most anti-Catholic sects, however, tend not to say much about Orthodox churches (positive or negative) and, therefore, the people are more open to conversion to those churches. Ironically, the very spirituality and liturgy that attracts them to Orthodoxy would also likely call them to Roman Catholicism if it wasn’t for the background. Just a thought.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Backstory: The Orthodox Church is seeing astounding numbers of new converts in recent decades. The OCA claims that around half of their members are converts, and the rates among clergy are even higher: The Antiochian Diocese of America claims a clergy convert rate of 75%. It’s true that the number of converts to Catholicism has been growing in recent years, and we there’s quite a number of prominent Catholic converts, but at nowhere near the same rates as the Orthodox have been seeing. While the majority are converts are from Protestantism, there’s quite a significant number of ex-RC’s in there as well.

My question is: Why? And why isn’t Catholicism getting a share of the converts as well? I’ve never really seen a Catholic explanation for the phenomenon, and the majority of Catholics that I’ve asked like to simply pretend that the problem doesn’t exist. The Orthodox, for their part, explain the Protestant phenomenon as one that’s a direct result of the information age, the rise of Protestant movements seeking to return to the ways of the “early Church”, and a general identity crisis arising in Protestantism as part of trend of Protestants seeking to return to their roots. But the roots of Protestantism are in the Western Church, not the Eastern Church. So what gives?

As for the Catholic phenomenon, they explain it as a direct result of Vatican II, and the post-VII identity crisis that we saw arise in many Western Catholics. But I’ve never heard a Catholic reasoning for it. So what exactly would that be?

I think you should take a look at the traditional movement within Catholicism…It is exploding with vocations and conversions in general. The FSSP and the TLM fraternities are doing rather well compared to the ordinary seminaries. There certainly is something there to be looked at…but like the other posters numbers don’t matter.

 

[dmar198]

From a historical point of view, there is a good case for saying that the West split from the East,

Do you have more information? I’d be very interested to learn how you came to this conclusion.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Do you have more information? I’d be very interested to learn how you came to this conclusion.

I think maybe you read that wrong I believe the OP was talking about liturgy and liturgical practice. The east certainly with out a doubt split from the West.

 

[Ignatius]

Backstory: The Orthodox Church is seeing astounding numbers of new converts in recent decades. The OCA claims that around half of their members are converts, and the rates among clergy are even higher: The Antiochian Diocese of America claims a clergy convert rate of 75%. It’s true that the number of converts to Catholicism has been growing in recent years, and we there’s quite a number of prominent Catholic converts, but at nowhere near the same rates as the Orthodox have been seeing.

I’m going to have to challenge the accuracy of this. Can you please point to the source data, size of the sample, and other supporting matter? I want to run the numbers myself. Thank you.

 

[GEddie]

Two thoughts on this.

1). The Western mind has always loved things that are foreign and exotic. In Roman times, this led to numerous conversions to Judaism, which was then exotic, as seen in the Acts of the Apostles. In current times, this powers the vogue for Oriental religion, reincarnation, etc, and possibly, in part, the surge in Islam.

In modern NA, Eastern Orthodoxy is exotic and therefore attractive. The RCC is not; it has been in NA since the conquistadors and the Colony of Maryland.

2). Much more sadly, there is still some bad juju between the Catholic and Protestant spheres, to the point where some Protestants seeking the historical faith will turn to the EOC specifically because it is not Catholic.

ICXC NIKA

 

[eightydeuce82]

Two thoughts on this.

1). The Western mind has always loved things that are foreign and exotic. In Roman times, this led to numerous conversions to Judaism, which was then exotic, as seen in the Acts of the Apostles. In current times, this powers the vogue for Oriental religion, reincarnation, etc, and possibly, in part, the surge in Islam.

In modern NA, Eastern Orthodoxy is exotic and therefore attractive. The RCC is not; it has been in NA since the conquistadors and the Colony of Maryland.

2). Much more sadly, there is still some bad juju between the Catholic and Protestant spheres, to the point where some Protestants seeking the historical faith will turn to the EOC specifically because it is not Catholic.

ICXC NIKA

Great post BTW…I would say this is why there is an ever increasing surge of young folks at the TLM all over the country.

 

[Eruvande]

Two thoughts on this.

1). The Western mind has always loved things that are foreign and exotic. In Roman times, this led to numerous conversions to Judaism, which was then exotic, as seen in the Acts of the Apostles. In current times, this powers the vogue for Oriental religion, reincarnation, etc, and possibly, in part, the surge in Islam.

In modern NA, Eastern Orthodoxy is exotic and therefore attractive. The RCC is not; it has been in NA since the conquistadors and the Colony of Maryland.

2). Much more sadly, there is still some bad juju between the Catholic and Protestant spheres, to the point where some Protestants seeking the historical faith will turn to the EOC specifically because it is not Catholic.

ICXC NIKA

That is a good post. I admit my interest in Orthodoxy is in part due to what I don’t find myself convinced of in the Catholic church, like purgatory and papal supremacy.

And as a protestant currently, it’s like a technicolour version of Christianity instead of the black and white I’ve been used to.

 

[eightydeuce82]

That is a good post. I admit my interest in Orthodoxy is in part due to what I don’t find myself convinced of in the Catholic church, like purgatory and papal supremacy.

And as a protestant currently, it’s like a technicolour version of Christianity instead of the black and white I’ve been used to.

Just be careful many protestants have read themselves into the Church and been disappointed at what they got into…I have to give it to the east they certainly know how to keep things sacred and reverent…of course when they are not being obstinate and rejecting authority

 

[Eruvande]

Just be careful many protestants have read themselves into the Church and been disappointed at what they got into…I have to give it to the east they certainly know how to keep things sacred and reverent…of course when they are not being obstinate and rejecting authority

ha! Good advice to keep me honest. To date my experience of Orthodoxy is entirely academic. Trouble is no one actually speaks to me after mass, which hasn’t helped in drawing me into the Roman Catholic church. But that’s an aside, I know it has nothing to do with the truth of a belief. I feel like I’m having to choose between a perfect sapphire and a perfect ruby. It’s not the worst position in the world to be in.

 

[Errham]

I’m going to have to challenge the accuracy of this. Can you please point to the source data, size of the sample, and other supporting matter? I want to run the numbers myself. Thank you.

The citation is in the book “Welcome to the Orthodox Church” by Frederica Matthews-Green.

Another website that I’ve found is Eastern Exodus — Charisma Leader

According to Orthodox researcher Alexey D. Krindach, 37 percent of the priests in The Orthodox Church in America are Protestant converts, and more than three-quarters of the seminary students at two of the largest Orthodox seminaries are former Protestants.

According to a 2006 study by the National Council of Churches, the fastest growing major church in the United States is neither Protestant nor Catholic. It is Eastern Orthodox. The million-member Orthodox Church in America grew at a rate of 6.4 percent in 2005, compared to the AG’s only 1.8 percent.

 

[eightydeuce82]

ha! Good advice to keep me honest. To date my experience of Orthodoxy is entirely academic. Trouble is no one actually speaks to me after mass, which hasn’t helped in drawing me into the Roman Catholic church. But that’s an aside, I know it has nothing to do with the truth of a belief. I feel like I’m having to choose between a perfect sapphire and a perfect ruby. It’s not the worst position in the world to be in.

Its more of a choice of good music and obedience to what our Good lord set up…Protestantism really sucked the musical genius out of the CC lol! The orthodox really have a problem with authority…probably why they are so disorganized and haven’t had a council in well forever!

In all honesty separating emotion from truth is important. The most important thing for protestants converting. Not to say there is not emotion in the Mass (try going to a high TLM) very reverent! Just the feeling you get or the emotion something gives you is not always the holy spirit nor truth.

Id say it realy comes down to are you attending the Church Jesus designed to remain intact in obedience or are you attending one that remains disobedient because of the pride of man? Both have apostolic succession and the real presence but only one is in complete obedience to God.

 

[Casilda]

2). Much more sadly, there is still some bad juju between the Catholic and Protestant spheres, to the point where some Protestants seeking the historical faith will turn to the EOC specifically because it is not Catholic.

ICXC NIKA

In my own experience studying with EO converts, it was their abhorence of all things RC that led me back to communion with Rome, albeit with an Eastern Catholic rite (best of both). I can see them as brothers in the same faith, even though I am nothing to them.