The "Orthodox Crisis"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Errham
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
eightydeuce82 said:
Its more of a choice of good music and obedience to what our Good lord set up…Protestantism really sucked the musical genius out of the CC lol! The orthodox really have a problem with authority…probably why they are so disorganized and haven’t had a council in well forever! 🤷

In all honesty separating emotion from truth is important. The most important thing for protestants converting. Not to say there is not emotion in the Mass (try going to a high TLM) very reverent! Just the feeling you get or the emotion something gives you is not always the holy spirit nor truth.

Id say it realy comes down to are you attending the Church Jesus designed to remain intact in obedience or are you attending one that remains disobedient because of the pride of man? Both have apostolic succession and the real presence but only one is in complete obedience to God.
Click to expand...
You make very good points. I recall going to mass on retreat a couple of years ago now, and being very moved by it, but also supremely aware that it was just an experience and not what I needed to base my faith on.

I struggle to get to mass, which has always been a difficulty, as my husband is intermittently opposed to my being either Catholic or Orthodox - he usually gets more anti the more serious I look like becoming, but I am sure my ambivalence about either is not the best witness in that matter. But yes, I think as your signature suggests, it does all come down to authority - but by golly, do you know how difficult it is for a protestant to actually get to a clear understanding of that? I’ve seen authority abused a number of times in protestant situations to the point that it kind of gives me the heebie jeebies and Orthodoxy appeals precisely because it is less centralised in it’s approach to authority.

Not saying I know which is right, mind you, just talking about my (lack of!)understanding.
 
Eruvande said:
You make very good points. I recall going to mass on retreat a couple of years ago now, and being very moved by it, but also supremely aware that it was just an experience and not what I needed to base my faith on.

I struggle to get to mass, which has always been a difficulty, as my husband is intermittently opposed to my being either Catholic or Orthodox - he usually gets more anti the more serious I look like becoming, but I am sure my ambivalence about either is not the best witness in that matter. But yes, I think as your signature suggests, it does all come down to authority - but by golly, do you know how difficult it is for a protestant to actually get to a clear understanding of that? I’ve seen authority abused a number of times in protestant situations to the point that it kind of gives me the heebie jeebies and Orthodoxy appeals precisely because it is less centralised in it’s approach to authority.

Not saying I know which is right, mind you, just talking about my (lack of!)understanding.
Click to expand...
Actually I do understand My mom finally crossed over this Easter 👍. Authority is always abused and I deal with many protestants making the jump. I also do quite a bit of defending the faith online in different forums. If you think orthodoxy is less authoritative simply because on paper they have no pope your going to be disappointed. When you start to see the lack of unity you will understand why having a central authority is vital. The orthodox are scattered and honestly they haven’t explained or even tried to explain anything for a 1000 years to their people. Its just a mystery. Its really simple Jesus said we would be able to show people we were from him by our unity. How does one show they are from God with an invisible unity that cant be seen and only resides in the hearts of believers? Or are we to be the new Israel a city on a hill ultra visible and completely unified in belief and practice? If you think that the Catholic Church is that unity and has been faithfully for 2000 years. So yes its all about authority.
 
Eruvande said:
You make very good points. I recall going to mass on retreat a couple of years ago now, and being very moved by it, but also supremely aware that it was just an experience and not what I needed to base my faith on.

I struggle to get to mass, which has always been a difficulty, as my husband is intermittently opposed to my being either Catholic or Orthodox - he usually gets more anti the more serious I look like becoming, but I am sure my ambivalence about either is not the best witness in that matter. But yes, I think as your signature suggests, it does all come down to authority - but by golly, do you know how difficult it is for a protestant to actually get to a clear understanding of that? I’ve seen authority abused a number of times in protestant situations to the point that it kind of gives me the heebie jeebies and Orthodoxy appeals precisely because it is less centralised in it’s approach to authority.

Not saying I know which is right, mind you, just talking about my (lack of!)understanding.
Click to expand...
Remember there is no better way to abuse power than to appoint yourself your own pope! ill leave it at that.

If you have any particulars on authority you struggle with PM me im pretty well versed in the very early church and most of the fathers…yes even the eastern ones. They have answers to all of this 😃
 
yes! You made me smile with not being my own pope - I’ve used that very phrase with my husband about why I could no longer be a protestant. Thanks for your kind PM offer, I may well take you up on that 🙂
 
Eruvande said:
yes! You made me smile with not being my own pope - I’ve used that very phrase with my husband about why I could no longer be a protestant. Thanks for your kind PM offer, I may well take you up on that 🙂
Click to expand...
Please do there is just so much to all of this but we have access to people who were much smarter than us from thousands of years ago that hammered out these same questions that keep popping up today! literally people who took their bible study directly from the apostles personally!

Ill just bounce one more thing of ya that I think is still pretty darn cool even though I’ve been catholic my whole life.

When you meet the Bishop realize that you are in the presence of a man that has had his office passed onto him by a man who had hands laid upon him and so on and so forth going back to the apostles! Literally an unbroken lineage all the way back. Just like Paul did to timmothy IN the bible of all places! There’s a bishop out there right now that was by proxy and time obviously ordained by Paul, Peter and the rest. I just find that amazing and really if you are looking to authority there is no place better than apostolic succession.
 
Eruvande said:
ha! 🙂 Good advice to keep me honest. To date my experience of Orthodoxy is entirely academic. **Trouble is no one actually speaks to me after mass, which hasn’t helped in drawing me into the Roman Catholic church. **But that’s an aside, I know it has nothing to do with the truth of a belief. I feel like I’m having to choose between a perfect sapphire and a perfect ruby. It’s not the worst position in the world to be in.
Click to expand...
Yes this can be a problem. You’ll find many here who will lament about a lack of reverence for Christ in the Eucharist but little lament for those who seem to lack the ability to see Jesus in those who come to Mass but are at a different place in their journey and who many then deem – not reverent enough-- and who then pass out smug or disdainful looks at these people, won’t greet and interact with them–and then come to these boards to complain about those people lamenting about what a great affront it is to Christ. But in my mind Christ is calling these people to his Church–they are there and I’m not going to worry about how they are dressed and how reverent they seem – I am going to see Jesus in them, show them respect, and hopefully my interaction with them will draw them closer to Christ–and not push them away. As they draw closer to Christ–their participation in the Mass will change–I can’t expect everyone to come fully formed–Christ didn’t expect it-- so why should I? In my mind it is a great affront to Christ when we fail to see him in others, when we fail to love him by loving them, when we fail to meet him by meeting them where they are, when we fail to draw them closer to him, when, by our actions and attitudes, we actually keep them from Christ–that is not something I want to answer for. I’m sorry for your experience after mass–I hope that you are able to find a parish that is warm and inviting in the future. We need to remember that we are all great sinners and that none of us are truly worthy to receive the Lord–perhaps if we keep our own unworthiness in focus–we won’t be so distracted by those around us whom many deem less worthy. I know I am just happy to see new people at Mass and I want them to come to love it as I do, but that can’t happen if I don’t love them, pray for them, and interact with them–if I don’t meet them where they are. People did that for us–why can’t we do that for them–heck Christ became incarnate to meet us–we can’t do the same for others at Mass?

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/a-river-runs-to-it-a-new-exodus-of-protestants-streams-to-rome.html
While a lot of people leave the Church, they tend not to be good Catholics, says Curtis Martin, president of Catholics United for the Faith, who himself returned to the Church after spending five years as an evangelical Protestant. The Protestants [now] coming into the Church are the most devoted Protestants, people deeply committed to Scripture and prayer. Were losing the numbers game but we are winning the quality game in spades.
Click to expand...
 
Errham said:
Very interesting article. It looks like they’re going to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism for the exact same reasons. The big question now is just what makes them choose one over the other.
Click to expand...
Well, when my husband was considering the ancient faith, he still had anti-Catholic views he grew up with, so he was veering Orthodox (who fuel those views). We were both attending faith classes through an Orthodox monk. All that did was reinforce my Catholicism. Yet, neither of us could get past the problems we saw in our local Catholic diocese: lack of priests, overly large congregations (6000+, 4000+, 2500+) , okay, I won’t go through all that again. So our compromise, an Eastern Catholic church.
 
Casilda said:
Well**, when my husband was considering the ancient faith, he still had anti-Catholic views he grew up with, so he was veering Orthodox (who fuel those views)**. We were both attending faith classes through an Orthodox monk. All that did was reinforce my Catholicism. Yet, neither of us could get past the problems we saw in our local Catholic diocese: lack of priests, overly large congregations (6000+, 4000+, 2500+) , okay, I won’t go through all that again. So our compromise, an Eastern Catholic church.
Click to expand...
Highlighted above. Are you saying that Orthodox clergy fuel anti-Catholic views?
 
Eruvande said:
That is a good post. I admit my interest in Orthodoxy is in part due to what I don’t find myself convinced of in the Catholic church, like purgatory and papal supremacy.
Click to expand...
Just making a comment on one issue

Re: Purgatory, actually the Orthodox have their version of purgatory called toll houses.
If you’re really interested, I can give you lots of references

1 example
“Met. Kallistos Ware, issue 2 of Sobornost (vol. 3), pp. 182-183 (1981), “One Body in Christ: Death and the Communion of Saints”:

“It is the normal teaching in the Orthodox Church that, during the period immediately following death, the soul, accompanied by the guardian angel, passes through a series of twenty-two telonia, celestial toll or custom houses … This teaching about the toll houses has early origins; while not a dogma of the Church, it is far more than mere legend or pious opinion. In picture language and symbolical terms it expresses truths about a state that is no longer subject to the categories of time and space.”
Click to expand...
*My Comments. *
  • *One won’t find the concept of Toll houses in scripture. *
  • *One will find the concept of Purgatory in scripture. *1 Corinthians 3:13-15
As an aside, Met Kalistos Ware is a popular Orthodox author and speaker
 
Yes, I discovered about toll houses a few days ago. Much to ponder.
 
SAVINGRACE said:
Highlighted above. Are you saying that Orthodox clergy fuel anti-Catholic views?
Click to expand...
Yes. Its how they get converts on-the-fence between the two to finally ford the bosphorus. Their ranks are made up of a lot of anti-Catholics which is why I felt very uncomfortable there.
 
steve_b said:
What are your thoughts so far?
Click to expand...
The “toll house” theory isn an extremely controversial one. It’s one of the reasons recommended that newcomers stay away from the writings of Ft. Seraphim Rose.
 
Errham said:
The “toll house” theory isn an extremely controversial one. It’s one of the reasons recommended that newcomers stay away from the writings of Ft. Seraphim Rose.
Click to expand...
I quoted from Met Kallistos Ware not Seraphim Rose. Ware, is a well respected prelate, teacher, speaker and author in Orthodoxy.
 
steve_b said:
What are your thoughts so far?
Click to expand...
Well, my thoughts are that there is so much I don’t know, about either Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Everytime I take a step one way, something comes and blindsides me about what I’ve just learned.
 
Eruvande said:
Well, my thoughts are that there is so much I don’t know, about either Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Everytime I take a step one way, something comes and blindsides me about what I’ve just learned.
Click to expand...
What blindsided you this time?
 
steve_b said:
What blindsided you this time?
Click to expand...
discovering the teaching about toll houses, when much had been made to me that Orthodoxy doesn’t go with any concept of purgatory. Initially, I had accepted the idea of purgatory while looking at Catholicism. It makes sense. But my Orthodox friends had assured me it wasn’t necessary. Now I’m wondering about the immaculate conception and related doctrines. I feel somewhat misled.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top