The OSAS "Top 13" List

[Tomster]

Well, you asked for it and now you have. Here it is. The 13 verses OSAS people love to quote, mangle and distort. If anyone has any other verses they would like to contribute, please feel free.

I have included next to the verse what OSAS people “think” the verse means.

1. Rom 3:28 (To go to heaven, all I have to is believe.)
2. Eph 2:8-9 (We must not do good works because the Bible condemns them. To assure my salvation, nothing more is required than to believe I am saved.)
3. Ac 16:31 (All I have to do is believe and I am saved, and my salvation is assured)
4. Rom 10:9-10 (I only have to acknowledge Christ and the Resurrection orally and believe in my heart that I am saved.)
5. Rom 3:10 (Mary was a sinner like the rest of us.)
6. Rom 3:23 (Again, Mary was a sinner like the rest of us.)
7. Rom 10:13 (I only have to call upon His name and my salvation is absolutely guaranteed.)
8. 1 Tim 2:5 (Catholics turn to priests, and Mary, and dead saints to act as mediators between God and men, instead of Jesus Christ.)
9. 2 Tim 3:16 (Jesus gave us the Bible, it is all we need.)
10. Mt. 23:9 (Jesus said not to call Catholic priests “Father”.)
11. Jas 5:16 (The Bible nowhere says to tell your sins to a priest, but only to one another.)
12. 1 Pet 2:5/9 (We are all priests.)
13. 1 Tim 3:2 (The Bible says bishops and priests must be married.)

The above list was compiled from my own observations. There may be other verses. Again, feel free to add to this list.

 

[allischalmers]

You have proved nothing ----Nothing at all !!

 

[1edyson]

You have proved nothing ----Nothing at all !!

I don’t think the OP was trying necessarily to Prove anything, only give verses he has seen as “proof” verses for OSAS and offer his rendition of the defense given by non-catholic Christians to the verses. I think it would be in your best interest to offer your interpretations of these verses, or counter verses, or even an different opinion then the presented information, rather then giving a BOLD LARGE FONT editorial statement. But with that said, I’ve seen and heard most of those verses used to defend OSAS as well, in addition the famous John 3:16…yesterdays Gospel reading btw, the verse always gives me the warm fuzzies inside.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You have proved nothing ----Nothing at all !!

Alli, my friend, you are getting emotional too soon. Unless you are admitting that the case is weak for OSAS wait till the list is formed and discussed. I think you will see that there is very little rational or interpretative leeway in scripture to support OSAS. But if you want to pick a favorite verse to argue then make your best defense. But I am betting you will see for yourself that your belief and hope in the neo-Christian teaching of OSAS is just a once warmed over redisovery of Apocatastasis that all falls apart under logic, reason, historical analysis and truth. That will be the time to get emotional - but at the false teachers who taught you this nonsence and made you spend so much of your life chasing a heresy that the early Church rejected millennia ago.

Then simply get over it, admit its wrong and come back into the fullness of the apostolic teaching of the Catholic Church so you will have a more confident hope and the truth about what one must do to be saved. The reason you are getting so anxious here is because you know in your heart that OSAS makes no sense to reason. Why would Jesus make a single exception for the work of “just believing” if what you believe is true? Why would the work that Jesus “finished” on the cross require you to perspire a little bit more to work the tongue to say “I believe”? Was it “finished” on the cross as you believe or not?

Consider the simple logic that if it was ALL “finished” on the cross then “redemption” and “salvation” would be equivalent terms and man would need do nothing at all other than be born and eventually “as if by fire” man and even the devil himself are “saved”. This is of course offensive to common sense and is in fact a well known early church heresy of Apocatastasis or “universal salvation”. This heterodox doctrine was wrongly ascribed as an affront to history by neo-Christians (post reformation) to certain early saints but what is clear is that it was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.]

Even though Apocatastasis was anathemized by The Church at at early date it was dormant until the Reformation. It is the reformers who in their zeal to “purify” teachings without any objective standard (save the fuzziness of 1500 year hind sight) ended up tossing the baby out with the bathwater. Historians (Harnack) believe that nearly all the Reformers were apocatastasists at heart; which accounts for the Reformers aversion to the traditional Catholic teaching concerning the sacraments. These heretical doctrines are found among the Anabaptists, the Moravian Brethren, the Christadelphians, among rationalistic Protestants, and among the professed Universalists.

OSAS is utterly heretical and is nothing but a once warmed over “re-teaching of man” that was never accepted in the early Church. It is not even original and the Reformers are just plagiarists and copy-cat heretics.

James

 

[Tomster]

Alli, my friend, you are getting emotional too soon. Unless you are admitting that the case is weak for OSAS wait till the list is formed and discussed. I think you will see that there is very little rational or interpretative leeway in scripture to support OSAS. But if you want to pick a favorite verse to argue then make your best defense. But I am betting you will see for yourself that your belief and hope in the neo-Christian teaching of OSAS is just a once warmed over redisovery of Apocatastasis that all falls apart under logic, reason, historical analysis and truth. That will be the time to get emotional - but at the false teachers who taught you this nonsence and made you spend so much of your life chasing a heresy that the early Church rejected millennia ago.

Then simply get over it, admit its wrong and come back into the fullness of the apostolic teaching of the Catholic Church so you will have a more confident hope and the truth about what one must do to be saved. The reason you are getting so anxious here is because you know in your heart that OSAS makes no sense to reason. Why would Jesus make a single exception for the work of “just believing” if what you believe is true? Why would the work that Jesus “finished” on the cross require you to perspire a little bit more to work the tongue to say “I believe”? Was it “finished” on the cross as you believe or not?

Consider the simple logic that if it was ALL “finished” on the cross then “redemption” and “salvation” would be equivalent terms and man would need do nothing at all other than be born and eventually “as if by fire” man and even the devil himself are “saved”. This is of course offensive to common sense and is in fact a well known early church heresy of Apocatastasis or “universal salvation”. This heterodox doctrine was wrongly ascribed as an affront to history by neo-Christians (post reformation) to certain early saints but what is clear is that it was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.]

Even though Apocatastasis was anathemized by The Church at at early date it was dormant until the Reformation in their zeal to “purify” teachings without any objective standard (save 1500 year hind site) ended up tossing the baby out with the bathwater. Historians (Harnack) believe that nearly all the Reformers were apocatastasists at heart; which accounts for the Reformers aversion to the traditional Catholic teaching concerning the sacraments. These heretical doctrines are found among the Anabaptists, the Moravian Brethren, the Christadelphians, among rationalistic Protestants, and among the professed Universalists.

OSAS is utterly heretical and is nothing but a once warmed over “re-teaching of man” that was never accepted in the early Church. It is not even original and the Reformers are just plagiarists and copy-cat heretics.

James

Thanks James. In regards to the Reformers aversion to the traditional Catholic teaching concerning the sacraments I have compiled a very nice list of Scriptural references supporting the Catholic position on the matter. All of the references are from the Bible, but in dealing with the OSAS crowd we Catholics must remember that they put a template over the 35,000 verses of the Bible and rely mostly on the above list and their own fallible oral traditions to try and explain their errors.

 

[paul_c]

I would suggest we all keep an open mind about this. Lets develop the list of Protestant proof points and the counterlist of Catholic proof points and see where it leads us. If done in the right way, it will provide context and understanding to both sides of the discussion.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I would suggest we all keep an open mind about this. Lets develop the list of Protestant proof points and the counterlist of Catholic proof points and see where it leads us. If done in the right way, it will provide context and understanding to both sides of the discussion.

Good point. And I have to keep reminding myself in particular that the early Church fathers warned us all about presuming one’s salvation is secure simply by having possession of the Truth - that is yet another variation on OSAS. In fact this absolute Catholic truth which we have in our trust is a terrible burden to us and we are held to a higher standard. We must not become “puffed up” with the certainty that mere possession of truth is going to get us to heaven either. Rather we the possessors of the truth should fear the terrible burden of not only safeguarding, defending and propagating it but we must also not be too severe on those who can’t yet see the truth. These others wrestle against principalities and spiritual deceptions that have quite cleverly disguised error as a faux illumination that only serves to entangle and more securely trap the more they stubbornly cling to this poisonous vine as if it was a friendly life line. If we are too severe or unkind and unmerciful to those caught in the skillful entrapments of the foe we are ourselves may loose favor with God and not be forgiven of our own sins. And having the truth and still losing salvation would be the worst and most pitiful of blunders for anyone to suffer; it would be only more harm to uncharitably or carelessly wield the truth to sever the entanglements while also maiming those who we had intended to untangle.

Irenaeus I think said it well when he condemned the same wrong ideas of perpetual justification (OSAS similarities) while cautioning those of us who might be too assured of ourselves:

*Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 (A.D. 180).
“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” *

James

 

[Tomster]

Good point. And I have to keep reminding myself in particular that the early Church fathers warned us all about presuming one’s salvation is secure simply by having possession of the Truth - that is yet another variation on OSAS. In fact this absolute Catholic truth which we have in our trust is a terrible burden to us and we are held to a higher standard. We must not become “puffed up” with the certainty that mere possession of truth is going to get us to heaven either. Rather we the possessors of the truth should fear the terrible burden of not only safeguarding, defending and propagating it but we must also not be too severe on those who can’t yet see the truth. These others wrestle against principalities and spiritual deceptions that have quite cleverly disguised error as a faux illumination that only serves to entangle and more securely trap the more they stubbornly cling to this poisonous vine as if it was a friendly life line. If we are too severe or unkind and unmerciful to those caught in the skillful entrapments of the foe we are ourselves may loose favor with God and not be forgiven of our own sins. And having the truth and still losing salvation would be the worst and most pitiful of blunders for anyone to suffer; it would be only more harm to uncharitably or carelessly wield the truth to sever the entanglements while also maiming those who we had intended to untangle.

Irenaeus I think said it well when he condemned the same wrong ideas of perpetual justification (OSAS similarities) while cautioning those of us who might be too assured of ourselves:

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 (A.D. 180).
“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’”

James

Paul and James,

Agreed! And well said, both of you. Thanks.

 

[Philthy]

Well, you asked for it and now you have. Here it is. The 13 verses OSAS people love to quote, mangle and distort. If anyone has any other verses they would like to contribute, please feel free.

I have included next to the verse what OSAS people “think” the verse means.

1. Rom 3:28 (To go to heaven, all I have to is believe.)
2. Eph 2:8-9 (We must not do good works because the Bible condemns them. To assure my salvation, nothing more is required than to believe I am saved.)
3. Ac 16:31 (All I have to do is believe and I am saved, and my salvation is assured)
4. Rom 10:9-10 (I only have to acknowledge Christ and the Resurrection orally and believe in my heart that I am saved.)
5. Rom 3:10 (Mary was a sinner like the rest of us.)
6. Rom 3:23 (Again, Mary was a sinner like the rest of us.)
7. Rom 10:13 (I only have to call upon His name and my salvation is absolutely guaranteed.)
8. 1 Tim 2:5 (Catholics turn to priests, and Mary, and dead saints to act as mediators between God and men, instead of Jesus Christ.)
9. 2 Tim 3:16 (Jesus gave us the Bible, it is all we need.)
10. Mt. 23:9 (Jesus said not to call Catholic priests “Father”.)
11. Jas 5:16 (The Bible nowhere says to tell your sins to a priest, but only to one another.)
12. 1 Pet 2:5/9 (We are all priests.)
13. 1 Tim 3:2 (The Bible says bishops and priests must be married.)

The above list was compiled from my own observations. There may be other verses. Again, feel free to add to this list.

This one has come up a few times…

John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Well, you asked for it and now you have. Here it is. The 13 verses OSAS people love to quote, mangle and distort. If anyone has any other verses they would like to contribute, please feel free.

I have included next to the verse what OSAS people “think” the verse means.

1. Rom 3:28 (To go to heaven, all I have to is believe.)
2. Eph 2:8-9 (We must not do good works because the Bible condemns them. To assure my salvation, nothing more is required than to believe I am saved.)
3. Ac 16:31 (All I have to do is believe and I am saved, and my salvation is assured)
4. Rom 10:9-10 (I only have to acknowledge Christ and the Resurrection orally and believe in my heart that I am saved.)
5. Rom 3:10 (Mary was a sinner like the rest of us.)
6. Rom 3:23 (Again, Mary was a sinner like the rest of us.)
7. Rom 10:13 (I only have to call upon His name and my salvation is absolutely guaranteed.)
8. 1 Tim 2:5 (Catholics turn to priests, and Mary, and dead saints to act as mediators between God and men, instead of Jesus Christ.)
9. 2 Tim 3:16 (Jesus gave us the Bible, it is all we need.)
10. Mt. 23:9 (Jesus said not to call Catholic priests “Father”.)
11. Jas 5:16 (The Bible nowhere says to tell your sins to a priest, but only to one another.)
12. 1 Pet 2:5/9 (We are all priests.)
13. 1 Tim 3:2 (The Bible says bishops and priests must be married.)

The above list was compiled from my own observations. There may be other verses. Again, feel free to add to this list.

Do you have 13 verse saying OSAS is false

 

[CentralFLJames]

Do you have 13 verse saying OSAS is false

OSAS is one of the easiest errors to prove wrong from scripture alone. There are over 200 verses that prove OSAS wrong. The only way OSAS can be made to appear correct is by ignoring ALL the verses that prove it wrong and just cherry picking the one’s that seem to support it. Tomster has it 100% correct in describing this false doctrine as like laying a template over the bible that only lets one see about a baker’s dozen of the 30,000+ verses of the bible since the bulk of the bible will utterly reject it.

To me the key error is in sola fide which is a false basis for justification that ignores or does not require one to be holy as the father is holy nor to even repent of one’s sins. From here OSAS believers will all break into camps and counterclaim that if somone sins then they were never really saved and it degrades into a semantic argument with no way to know when one is really “saved”. Thus the confidence of a “guaranteed salvation” that OSAS was manufactured to gain converts to Protestant teaching becomes a stumbling block that does the opposite and pushes one into the again fractured Protestant camp on predestiny. The error pushes one to naive and false certainty or to despair. That is, at some point it comes down to explaining away that if somone sins then they are not of “the elect”. And so it no longer becomes a simple matter of “just believing” but rather “just believing” AND hoping one is of “the elect” (not much different than JW theology).

What is sad here is that in the Protestant system God is deemed to be unable to construct Divine Providence around man’s choices. Damnation or salvation becomes a matter of fate that is outside of personal freewill and the individual has no role other than his fate. Thus when one or others point out latent emergent sin that is taken in the context of sola fide and the general bundle of other Protestant errors one must be pushed ever more toward a false Pollyannaish certainty of salvation (sin magically and forensically becomes “not” sin) or more often to just cause one to loose heart and “drop out”; or utterly cave into despair that God can not prevent one from sinning since one must not be of “the elect” (a total victory for Satan). Eventually it becomes a “fatalistic” system and one is forced to confront the fact they still sin and so must resign to being forensically declared exempt from sin or just give up and “eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die and go to hell”.

James

 

[jpy15026]

What The Bible Says You Must Do To Be Saved

** Be baptized:** Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ that your sins may be forgiven. Mk. 16:16 (Jesus said) Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

** Receive Holy Communion:** John 6:51-58 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Do God’s will: p Matt. 7:21 [Jesus said], “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father which is in heaven.” 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. Matt. 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.

Obey Christ: Heb. 5:9 [Jesus is] the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Acts 3:23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be complete cut off.

Do good works: Rom. 2:6-7 [On the day of judgment] God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?…Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action is dead…You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (also, Matt. 25:31-46)

Share in Christ’s suffering: Rom. 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

** Forgive those who sin against you:** Matt. 6:14-15 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
**
Pursue holiness:** Heb. 12:14 Make every effort to…be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. James 1:21 Get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Rom. 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Love God & love neighbor: Luke 10:25-28 An expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the law?” Jesus asked, “How do you read it?” He answered: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied, “Do this and you will live.”
**
Keep the Ten Commandments: **Mt. 19:17 [Jesus said], “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
Remain steadfast in the faith: Matt. 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Rev. 2:10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Die in a state of grace: Heb. 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away,* to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again ad subjecting him to public disgrace. Note: To fall away, in the Greek language of the New Testament, expresses the idea of irrevocably turning one’s back on the gospel.

 

[CentralFLJames]

What The Bible Says You Must Do To Be Saved

Good List but I think you missed 1 or 2 depending on how you group them:

1. Be Merciful to others if we desire to be shown mercy. (a work)
2. Repent of one’s sins which also implies confession of post-baptismal sins (a part of being holy - which I think we can roll up there).

The virtues of faith, hope, charity are necessary but are probably rolled into your works since these are fruits of the spirit as part of the sanctification process.

James

 

[BRB1]

I would suggest we all keep an open mind about this. Lets develop the list of Protestant proof points and the counterlist of Catholic proof points and see where it leads us. If done in the right way, it will provide context and understanding to both sides of the discussion.

Indeed. We surely know Christ desires all the OS to be AS to the end.

So, Protestants share Christ’s sentiments … they just don’t recognize the reality and power of satan’s influence/temptations.

 

[Pug]

1. Eph 2:8-9 (We must not do good works because the Bible condemns them. To assure my salvation, nothing more is required than to believe I am saved.)

I’ve never heard a believer in eternal security say that we must not do good works. Also, surely they would require one to be trusting in Christ (the blood that he shed or his finished work on the cross or similar) and that is why one believes one is saved. After all, a person could believe they are saved on account of being baptized, but that wouldn’t serve, I imagine, in their view. It would be a false assurance. The eternal security doctrine does show some variation, and that would need to be addressed. Some people appear to allow that a man who is uncertain about his eternal security still may be eternally secure. Others, perhaps, do not.

I would add to your list Romans 8:38 neither death,…, nor depth, … in Christ Jesus…, though maybe they would pick a different central verse out of Romans 8.

 

[paul_c]

Well, you asked for it and now you have. Here it is. The 13 verses OSAS people love to quote, mangle and distort. If anyone has any other verses they would like to contribute, please feel free.

I have included next to the verse what OSAS people “think” the verse means.

1. Rom 3:28 (To go to heaven, all I have to is believe.)
2. Eph 2:8-9 (We must not do good works because the Bible condemns them. To assure my salvation, nothing more is required than to believe I am saved.)
3. Ac 16:31 (All I have to do is believe and I am saved, and my salvation is assured)
4. Rom 10:9-10 (I only have to acknowledge Christ and the Resurrection orally and believe in my heart that I am saved.)
5. Rom 3:10 (Mary was a sinner like the rest of us.)
6. Rom 3:23 (Again, Mary was a sinner like the rest of us.)
7. Rom 10:13 (I only have to call upon His name and my salvation is absolutely guaranteed.)
8. 1 Tim 2:5 (Catholics turn to priests, and Mary, and dead saints to act as mediators between God and men, instead of Jesus Christ.)
9. 2 Tim 3:16 (Jesus gave us the Bible, it is all we need.)
10. Mt. 23:9 (Jesus said not to call Catholic priests “Father”.)
11. Jas 5:16 (The Bible nowhere says to tell your sins to a priest, but only to one another.)
12. 1 Pet 2:5/9 (We are all priests.)
13. 1 Tim 3:2 (The Bible says bishops and priests must be married.)

The above list was compiled from my own observations. There may be other verses. Again, feel free to add to this list.

These are the 5 verses that Ralphy claimed turned him into a Protestant in another thread. Only one is on your list…
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

,Acts 3:19 Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be wiped away,

Acts 13:31, and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. These are (now) his witnesses before the people

Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

John 5:24. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

 

[ShellKell]

Good point. And I have to keep reminding myself in particular that the early Church fathers warned us all about presuming one’s salvation is secure simply by having possession of the Truth - that is yet another variation on OSAS. In fact this absolute Catholic truth which we have in our trust is a terrible burden to us and we are held to a higher standard. We must not become “puffed up” with the certainty that mere possession of truth is going to get us to heaven either. Rather we the possessors of the truth should fear the terrible burden of not only safeguarding, defending and propagating it but we must also not be too severe on those who can’t yet see the truth. These others wrestle against principalities and spiritual deceptions that have quite cleverly disguised error as a faux illumination that only serves to entangle and more securely trap the more they stubbornly cling to this poisonous vine as if it was a friendly life line. If we are too severe or unkind and unmerciful to those caught in the skillful entrapments of the foe we are ourselves may loose favor with God and not be forgiven of our own sins. And having the truth and still losing salvation would be the worst and most pitiful of blunders for anyone to suffer; it would be only more harm to uncharitably or carelessly wield the truth to sever the entanglements while also maiming those who we had intended to untangle.

My, you are an arrogant one aren’t you.

 

[CentralFLJames]

My, you are an arrogant one aren’t you.

Reminding fellow Catholics to show mercy and be charitable to those who do not have the fullness of truth is arrogant? Pardon me friend but you sound like you need to get the log out of your own eye before you start attacking others personally. Did I make a single personal comment to you? If you have an issue with me personally PM me and I will be more than happy to help you sort through it all.

James

 

[paul_c]

I’ve been giving this threat some thought. First of all, we now know there are more than 13 verses that are used as proof points to justify the Protestant positions. But we need to group them in categories. Obviously, the OP list was not all focused on the concept of OSAS, but rather on several Protestant deviations from the base Catholic position. (i.e, these are doctrinal issues that they are " protesting".

I was thinking about what those doctrinal issues are so that we could group the verses into them as categories.

Here is a first pass:

sola Fide : verses that support " salvation by Faith alone" versus the Catholic Position of that Salvation is based getting into the state of grace through faith by Baptism and then staying in the state of Grace by demonstrating your faith through works of love and by using then sacrament of reconciliation when we fall from Grace through Sin

Assurance of Salvation: verses that support the position that you can be assured of your salvation prior to death by your faith as opposed to the Catholic position where your salvation is not assured until you die in the state of Grace. (this is the basis of the OSAS discussion)

verses that deny the Catholic position on purgatory

verses that deny the Catholic teaching of eternal punishment, either through universal salvation or through a view that the damned simply cease to exist.

verses that support Sola Scriptura verses the Catholic Position that scripture is a subset of verbal tradition.

verses that support a Priesthood of the people vs the Catholic position of Apostolic succession and an ordained priesthood

verses that support the position that the Christ Church incorporates all that proclaim Christ is lord, versus the Catholic position that salvation comes through the Catholic church, which is the keeper of the truth and that all outside the chruch are in error when they deviate from Catholic teaching.

There may be a few more that the Protestants want to discuss but this would seem to me to be a good start. If we could start arranging the verses into these categories, I would think we could have a very instructive discussion.

 

[ShellKell]

CentralFLJames
Good point. And I have to keep reminding myself in particular that the early Church fathers warned us all about presuming one’s salvation is secure simply by having possession of the Truth - that is yet another variation on OSAS. In fact this absolute Catholic truth which we have in our trust is a terrible burden to us and we are held to a higher standard. We must not become “puffed up” with the certainty that mere possession of truth is going to get us to heaven either. Rather we the possessors of the truth should fear the terrible burden of not only safeguarding, defending and propagating it but we must also not be too severe on those who can’t yet see the truth. These others wrestle against principalities and spiritual deceptions that have quite cleverly disguised error as a faux illumination that only serves to entangle and more securely trap the more they stubbornly cling to this poisonous vine as if it was a friendly life line. If we are too severe or unkind and unmerciful to those caught in the skillful entrapments of the foe we are ourselves may loose favor with God and not be forgiven of our own sins. And having the truth and still losing salvation would be the worst and most pitiful of blunders for anyone to suffer; it would be only more harm to uncharitably or carelessly wield the truth to sever the entanglements while also maiming those who we had intended to untangle.

Reminding fellow Catholics to show mercy and be charitable to those who do not have the fullness of truth is arrogant? Pardon me friend but you sound like you need to get the log out of your own eye before you start attacking others personally. Did I make a single personal comment to you? If you have an issue with me personally PM me and I will be more than happy to help you sort through it all.

James

1 *having possession of the Truth ** * You claim to posses that which belongs to God
2 this absolute Catholic truth which we have in our trust is a terrible burden to us and we are held to a higher standard * Once again absolute truth can only belong to God *
3 We must not become “puffed up” In my opinion you have already gone down this road.
4 Rather we the possessors of the truth
5 These others wrestle against principalities and spiritual deceptions that have quite cleverly disguised error as a faux illumination that only serves to entangle and more securely trap the more they stubbornly cling to this poisonous vine as if it was a friendly life line Pride definitely entangles us if we let it.